Sonic The Hedgehog - General Discussion

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Uhhhh... Wolfe said this:


Which you responded with this...
Yes I know he did. That's why I pointed out the elements of the game that felt different to me, didn't contest the physics point at all.

I didn't even say the word physics in my reply. You've clearly read what you wanted to see in order to contest the point I was making. The general slower pace of the game and the parkour elements made it feel similar to Mario games(Well, Galaxy and Odyssey).
 
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I'm just generally confused at this point (or maybe I just suck at English), from what I gathered from Wolfe post he was only talking about the Physics about how it related to older 3D Sonic games without mentioning any elements and you responded with it doesn't.

It wasn't the fact that you said it but responded to a post that was talking about Physics in your disagreement of said statement.

Also wait? I thought we weren't talking about Parkour being sinilar to Mario anymore but other elements like Galaxy-like levels which I do actually agree with.
 
I'm just generally confused at this point (or maybe I just suck at English), from what I gathered from Wolfe post he was only talking about the Physics about how it related to older 3D Sonic games without mentioning any elements and you responded with it doesn't.

It wasn't the fact that you said it but responded to a post that was talking about Physics in your disagreement of said statement.

Also wait? I thought we weren't talking about Parkour being sinilar to Mario anymore but other elements like Galaxy-like levels which I do actually agree with.
Yeah, I could have been a bit clearer. When I said 'interesting' it was regarding his points on the physics. Then I was saying that it was the slower feel to the levels and the parkour (introducing more than just boost mechanics, sort of like Mario's double jumps etc) that made it feel more akin to the recent Mario titles. :lol:
 
I can't really agree on the parkour, it feels so much free and smooth in Lost World, while Mario "parkour" isn't really that and just jump combos.

The levels is definitely something I agree with, Galaxy like structure for seemingly no reason with NSMB style worlds (Grassland, Desertland, Waterland, Iceland, Forestland, Skyland, Lavaland). Apparently the intent was to get Mario fans into Sonic which explains the slower gameplay BUT the levels is a bit too much is only making Mario fans do the opposite.
 
For the record, I only played the Wii U demo. The Galaxy-copycat level design sure was different, but also incongruous with Sonic's wild, weightless control typical to the 3D games, IMO.

Perhaps what 3D Sonic needs more than anything else is level design that really matches up to the speed and mechanics. Utopia's Green Hills Zone is a true playground for speed and momentum:

 
Never saw it before looks interesting, although it seems more like Lost World without the gimmicks, which could be a neat idea for SEGA to do as when you're not in a gimmick, Lost World was pretty fine.
 
So got all the Red Rings and completed the EX stages.

I feel like they should've taken the EX stages and Secret stages out and just incorporated them into the mainstages. They last 30 sec. - 1 min. in a speedrun which feels way too short for a level BUT would've helped a long way for the other levels to feel a bit longer.
 
So we all had a discussion on Sonics direction for future titles but how about how we could've done to make Sonic Forces a game for you (I'm not gonna say fix it, since we aren't exactly pros who can say "you're 🤬, I can do better" and it really is subjective)

  • I would've liked Classic Sonic to just be relegated to being a side NPC character. Problem was he was only there as a plot device to connect Sonic Mania with Sonic Forces, SEGA didn't seem to keen on giving him much time as Classic Sonic barely mattered. Give the stages to Modern Sonic and the Avatar.
  • Include more locations, there was only 7 locations and only City, Mystic Jungle, Metropolis and Eggman Empire Foretress were new and I'm not sure if Metropolis counts as it's awfully similar to Grand Metropolis in Sonic Heroes. Green Hill and Chemical Plant returning again also annoyed me. Chemical Plant could've been some kind of dock-facility-water hybrid since it was essentially served that purpose in the story and Green Hill really could've been replaced with something else.
  • Give Chaos and Shadow actual boss fights.
  • A massive change to the game script would be for the returning villains to actually be themselves and not just projections. Phantom Ruby could've created well rounded reasons why Shadow, Zavok and Chaos joined Eggman while Metal Sonic didn't need to be the projection at all (Sonic even says this). Eggman/Infinite could've went back to Lost Hex and hit Zavok with the Phantom Ruby to make him enter a reality where the Conch used in Lost World was always active giving him no choice but to serve Eggman again. Shadow could've been some kind of double agent joining behind the scenes stroking Infinites big ego, having to fight Sonic to not only keep his cover but to prove to be strong enough to beat Infinite the moment he double crosses him. Episode Shadow showed Infinite's create strength and how it overwhelmed Shadow, so this would make sense. Chaos is the only hard one to point down thanks to the ending of Sonic Adventure but here's where things get crazy, bring the Master Emerald into the plot which would not only give a reason for Chaos to return but a personal reason for Knuckles to join the fight. Have Infinite reinact the attack on Angel Island destroying the Master Emerald.
  • As for Infinite, fledged out his character more. I already stated this before but to give it more detail. Have Infinite showcase being a massive insecure individual who has grown up in failure time and time again no matter how hard he tried and the people he relied as every single time he just gets hurt and people around him get destroyed, get him to snap and sell his soul to Eggman in an attempt to be reborn as Infinite out of fear of becoming weak again. Have a personal beef between Infinite and the Avatar also fledged out, with Infinite causing Avatar the same pain he felt before his rebirth when he attacked the city and mocked the Avatar however instead of copying Infinite, Avatar does the opposite and opens up to the main characters as himself which leads to an epic showdown between the 2 with the different paths clash once and for all.
  • Convert the EX and Secret stages into the main stages to make them last longer. The length of them I find passible as a pick-up and play game but they could've been a lot of longer.
  • Limit the boost. I personally prefer PS2/Wii Unleashed style of the Boost system where it comes in shots than meters. So you have strategize when to use your boosts so you're not just boosting through the speed sections like they mean nothing like the PS3/360 Unleashed
  • Explain how the Wisps matter in the story, this the 3rd game to have a big focus on Wisps and like last time they have no explanation, I would normally give it a past since it was explained in a mobile game that some of them stayed on Earth but explain why we still have Nega-Wisps (especially since I just found out it's possible to get the Void wisp before the final boss)? I would like to see instead of the Phantom Ruby getting its energy powered by some random generator in the Death Egg, have it run on Hyper-go-on power of the Wisps like in Sonic Colours mind control beam.
 
So we all had a discussion on Sonics direction for future titles but how about how we could've done to make Sonic Forces a game for you (I'm not gonna say fix it, since we aren't exactly pros who can say "you're 🤬, I can do better" and it really is subjective)

  • I would've liked Classic Sonic to just be relegated to being a side NPC character. Problem was he was only there as a plot device to connect Sonic Mania with Sonic Forces, SEGA didn't seem to keen on giving him much time as Classic Sonic barely mattered. Give the stages to Modern Sonic and the Avatar.
  • Include more locations, there was only 7 locations and only City, Mystic Jungle, Metropolis and Eggman Empire Foretress were new and I'm not sure if Metropolis counts as it's awfully similar to Grand Metropolis in Sonic Heroes. Green Hill and Chemical Plant returning again also annoyed me. Chemical Plant could've been some kind of dock-facility-water hybrid since it was essentially served that purpose in the story and Green Hill really could've been replaced with something else.
  • Give Chaos and Shadow actual boss fights.
  • A massive change to the game script would be for the returning villains to actually be themselves and not just projections. Phantom Ruby could've created well rounded reasons why Shadow, Zavok and Chaos joined Eggman while Metal Sonic didn't need to be the projection at all (Sonic even says this). Eggman/Infinite could've went back to Lost Hex and hit Zavok with the Phantom Ruby to make him enter a reality where the Conch used in Lost World was always active giving him no choice but to serve Eggman again. Shadow could've been some kind of double agent joining behind the scenes stroking Infinites big ego, having to fight Sonic to not only keep his cover but to prove to be strong enough to beat Infinite the moment he double crosses him. Episode Shadow showed Infinite's create strength and how it overwhelmed Shadow, so this would make sense. Chaos is the only hard one to point down thanks to the ending of Sonic Adventure but here's where things get crazy, bring the Master Emerald into the plot which would not only give a reason for Chaos to return but a personal reason for Knuckles to join the fight. Have Infinite reinact the attack on Angel Island destroying the Master Emerald.
  • As for Infinite, fledged out his character more. I already stated this before but to give it more detail. Have Infinite showcase being a massive insecure individual who has grown up in failure time and time again no matter how hard he tried and the people he relied as every single time he just gets hurt and people around him get destroyed, get him to snap and sell his soul to Eggman in an attempt to be reborn as Infinite out of fear of becoming weak again. Have a personal beef between Infinite and the Avatar also fledged out, with Infinite causing Avatar the same pain he felt before his rebirth when he attacked the city and mocked the Avatar however instead of copying Infinite, Avatar does the opposite and opens up to the main characters as himself which leads to an epic showdown between the 2 with the different paths clash once and for all.
  • Convert the EX and Secret stages into the main stages to make them last longer. The length of them I find passible as a pick-up and play game but they could've been a lot of longer.
  • Limit the boost. I personally prefer PS2/Wii Unleashed style of the Boost system where it comes in shots than meters. So you have strategize when to use your boosts so you're not just boosting through the speed sections like they mean nothing like the PS3/360 Unleashed
  • Explain how the Wisps matter in the story, this the 3rd game to have a big focus on Wisps and like last time they have no explanation, I would normally give it a past since it was explained in a mobile game that some of them stayed on Earth but explain why we still have Nega-Wisps (especially since I just found out it's possible to get the Void wisp before the final boss)? I would like to see instead of the Phantom Ruby getting its energy powered by some random generator in the Death Egg, have it run on Hyper-go-on power of the Wisps like in Sonic Colours mind control beam.
I agree with just about everything you've posted here, especially the point about the villains. :lol: Also, sightly unrelated but..

How did Shadow use Chaos Control without an emerald? Isn't that a core part of the ability?

I'd also have liked Null Space to be more than simply a 10 second punch line. Escaping from there was a hype moment but so damn brief that it was hard to care for how much of a big deal it was when the avatar and Modern are sent there!
 
Well, guess I get to be That Guy. Soooo...

In regards to Forces' storyline, I think it worked fine as it does two key things. It makes the focus of the game stay on Sonic v. Eggman, which a Sonic game absolutely needs to be, and established that Eggman is a credible threat as opposed to the blundering buffoon he's been in so many times in the past. Keeping the plotline slimmed down and not giving every single side character a bunch of screen time goes a long way into keeping the game moving at a decent pace, as did relaying some of the story through the in-game radio as opposed to "okay now let's just pump the brakes a bit for more cutscenes and loading times because we have A Story To Tell™ here".

Giving more backstory to Infinite and the Avatar would have made the game not be a Sonic game and instead be a "Sonic Friends" game, which would have been much a weaker premise. Infinite's abilities are meant to be his key trait so keeping his backstory light works, as does his only considering the Avatar to be little more than some scared kid that keeps blundering into his way. Having them both play pivotal but not central roles actually made them both feel a bit more meaningful to me, since they weren't being overused or eclipsing the the series' two main characters.

If they really want to expand on the story and give more time to certain characters, doing it in the form of standalone episodes like Mission Shadow seems to be the most logical choice. It would also give them more freedom to tailor the whole experience for that particular side story, rather than bouncing around between too many characters at once in the main game and diluting their impact.

As far as the stages go: While I certainly want more of them, especially ones that make use of Infinite's abilities (stage 16 is by far my favorite for the gravity/perspective shifting gimmick), I don't reaaally think they need to be that much longer. This is largely because I see that most of the stages have timed challenges on them, and at their current length the stages are just enough that a lot of people would consider actually going for those challenges since it's a lot less frustrating to start over when you don't have to devote almost 10 minutes of your time to something that goes on and on and on. Plus, and this is something a lot of people overlook, it makes the game more accessible to younger players, who are the age group Sonic games are targeted to. (also, another thing that people overlook is that "targeted to younger players" does not automatically mean "babby game for preschoolers".)

I also didn't mind the Classic Sonic stages as they made for a nice break from the normal gameplay, and sort of helped to distract from the fact that Avatar stages are basically modern Sonic but a little slower and with a little more emphasis on exploring. Plus, I really can't help but feel that trying to properly make a Casino Night tribute stage work properly with modern Sonic would just end very poorly.


tl;dr version: I personally feel that Sonic Forces not being storyline heavy or having massively long stages makes it more playable and enjoyable. It's basically the exact opposite of Sonic Unleashed in that regard, in that I actually want to come back to it.
 
In regards to Forces' storyline, I think it worked fine as it does two key things. It makes the focus of the game stay on Sonic v. Eggman, which a Sonic game absolutely needs to be, and established that Eggman is a credible threat as opposed to the blundering buffoon he's been in so many times in the past.
That's already happened before in 3 times in a row, Colours, Generations and with Lost World tricking players into thinking it was more into the plot but secretely just Sonic vs. Eggman in the end.

Now I don't mind it in the slightest if it was given at face value as I can enjoy an old fashion Sonic fighting with Eggman but the problem was the effort and promotion material that went into it felt like short change for something bigger, if they cut then storyline hype and character dynamics then I would be fine.

Also I don't think there's a problem with going off the beaten path, Sonic can do more than just fight Eggman over and over. Mario has been trying multiple angles of saving Peach (or Sprixies in 3D World), why can't Sonic do the same when trying to save the world.

EDIT: Also a massive problem with this is that Eggman didn't look like a threat at all, Infinite and his allies did all the heavy lifting (hell Tails who was afraid of Chaos at the beginning just laughed at Eggman) and even when they were gone the attention was more on the Phantom Ruby than Eggman himself with Sonic still not taking him seriously.

Giving more backstory to Infinite and the Avatar would have made the game not be a Sonic game and instead be a "Sonic Friends" game, which would have been much a weaker premise. Infinite's abilities are meant to be his key trait so keeping his backstory light works, as does his only considering the Avatar to be little more than some scared kid that keeps blundering into his way. Having them both play pivotal but not central roles actually made them both feel a bit more meaningful to me, since they weren't being overused or eclipsing the the series' two main characters.
I feel like it is possible to give these 2 characters more meaning without taking away Sonics spotlight, Adventure 1 did this perfectly. Not that I have problem with shared spotlight but it makes the Avatar feel kind redundant to be inserted the story in places.

I also heavily disagree with it making a weaker premise, I think seeing multiple characters being affected by this battle would've strengthen the premise.

Now I'm not saying Infinite and the Avatar should take leading roles with Infinite betraying Eggman as that would make Sonic and Eggman be more redundant but just give more reasons to care for Infinite instead of him being mocked for being overly edgy over nothing.

If they really want to expand on the story and give more time to certain characters, doing it in the form of standalone episodes like Mission Shadow seems to be the most logical choice. It would also give them more freedom to tailor the whole experience for that particular side story, rather than bouncing around between too many characters at once in the main game and diluting their impact.
I can see this but the problem is that Episode Shadow was able to do this more easily since it was a prequel doing it within similar timelines just create Sonic 06 levels of confusion of when things take place.

As far as the stages go: While I certainly want more of them, especially ones that make use of Infinite's abilities (stage 16 is by far my favorite for the gravity/perspective shifting gimmick), I don't reaaally think they need to be that much longer.
If they had more to make up for a lack of length I probably wouldn't mind it either to be honest.

Plus, and this is something a lot of people overlook, it makes the game more accessible to younger players, who are the age group Sonic games are targeted to.
This is where we get to the confusion of the franchise and who it is made for, mainly because Sonic has an identity crisis. Previous game Lost World, as well as Colours were targeted towards Mario fans. Generation was targeted towards the fans of all ages themselves. It's impossible to really say what the games are designed before especially with SEGA's new approach of embracing the internet culture of Sonic, it could be them targeting towards deviant art.

Long story short, we shouldn't assume it's targeted towards younger audiences because its age rating and presentation.

Plus, I really can't help but feel that trying to properly make a Casino Night tribute stage work properly with modern Sonic would just end very poorly.
I always found Casino stages in general to be 🤬 regardless. Even still, Lost World shown to be decent in comparison to the hell of Bingo Highway from Sonic Heroes.
 
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So, maybe we need to get rid of Shadow before he starts creating more edgelords :lol:
 
I have a quick question regarding the upcoming Sonic Mania Plus edition due to be released in July but I know Sega said that
there is to be a digital DLC upgrade fee to get the plus edition, I am just wondering if it would be cheaper to buy the current
edition and pay the upgrade fee to get the extra content?
 
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