SRF on seasonals

[Ills1999]

Maybe someone can explain to me how PD suffers when the 'best' players boycott seasonals due to the SRF issue.

PD has already collected our money when we bought the game.

Maybe these superior players can generate enough chatter about online content being too easy to dissuade someone who doesn't already own a copy from buying a copy?

At this point, it seems to me that all a person can do is ASK PD to bend to that player's wishes.

 

[Giulietta73]

After weighing it all up, I think I've reached a point where I'm not that fussed about SFR anymore. SFR is a pain but the simple fact that I spent £20 on a game 2 years ago (and a bit more on the DLCs) and I'm still given free races with prize cars, tickets, items etc is a good thing for me.👍

 

[NCRthree]

The motivation is not for PD to suffer sales losses from a seasonal "boycott". The issue is that we would like to have aids as optional not forced. Why would anyone not want that option?

Enough has been written how this is such an extreme aid that just telling a player to "get over it and play" isn't right for players in an advertised "Real Driving Simulator". Imagine a child who's been riding his bike for 2 years without training wheels then putting them back on. Oh, go on now it's just as fun-quit complaining and ride.

This forced SRF is a new development from PD. It has never been that way in any seasonal or career ASpec since the game was introduced that I'm aware of. When their seasonal pattern was stuck last year with alternate BSpec events in between a predictable PP pattern, there was a lot of complaining. The Event schedule changed for the better adding the PP adjustment payout along the way. Did the complaining help? Who knows. I know I'll do my part.

 

[Ills1999]

So that's the reason there aren't any new b-spec seasonals? Figures.

 

[playnthru]

If they forced SRF on in B-spec BOB could keep from crashing?

 

[Antmeg26]

If they forced SRF on in B-spec BOB could keep from crashing?

Even with SRF one of my BOBs would crash as soon as I yell at him.
I am thankful for the fun PD has given me, but SRF on and locked on a 380pp car is an overkill considering the skill diversity in the gamers.

 

[citycar]

i accidentally spent four of my hard to come by GT5 hours tuning a car in the 400pp seasonal. I felt something wasn't quite right and then realised that SRF was on. The tune is absolute rubbish...Now i have to start from scratch.

In terms of value in driving aids i never improved more in a short period compared to when i switched off the track map (with no suggested gears or driving line). Now i find it is not even necessary for tracks i don't know/haven't driven before.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Maybe someone can explain to me how PD suffers when the 'best' players boycott seasonals due to the SRF issue.

.

Let me try as well to be that someone.

First it is not about 'best' player, as I am not that fast and I would prefer to have SFR stay as an option, meaning we decide if it should be on or off.

The boycott is not about having PD suffers, why would we want that, PD is a great company and provide us with a fantastic game we all ( I ) enjoy on a daily basis.

The boycott is to, under the assomption that PD organise those seasonal to please the players, show PD the lack of interest we have in a seasonnal that does not offer the option to drive in the game the way we prefer.

So not about any body being better than any body else, not about punishing or wanting anyone to suffer, only about freedom of choice on using an option.
Important to remember that when you force the use of an option it is not an option anymore.

 

[Johnnypenso]

SRF on the current seasonal is just another example of a disconnect between PD and it's customer base. Why they would check the "on" box and not leave it optional makes no sense, but only from the viewpoint that they actually gave it some thought and arrived at a purposeful decision, which I don't believe. I think it's some programmer in a corner office, in charge of Seasonals, who just presses a few buttons and importantly, knows nothing about the game because he doesn't play it.

At this point, it's likely that working on the routine nuts and bolts of GT5 is the least preferred position in the office, all the cool people are working on GT6 and to get stuck working on GT5 is a form of punishment or a demotion of some kind. He might have stuck his head in someone's office and the conversation went like this:

"Hey man, what's SRF stand for?"
"Skid Recovery Force, it helps the cars be more stable in the corners, makes them a little easier to drive"
"So like when you are on harder tires you slide less...Oh that sounds cool, I'd like that"
"Yeah it comes in handy when you are learning the game"

Then he goes back and checks the SRF box and voila, here we are. I really believe it's that simple.

 

[NCRthree]

I only used SRF by accident when I first started GT5. Seems like it was a default setting like TC is set on 5. So I'm not really sure what it does exactly. I assume it stabilizes the vehicle when the tires over reach their grip threshold. So it doesn't allow tires to "skid", is that correct?

I'm wondering if it has any effect if you're just following the racing line and not trying to slide the car through turns. Just "normal" road course driving, not trying to push beyond reasonable limits. Maybe it only comes into play if the vehicle is pushed beyond it's grip limits. Then again you wouldn't know what the limits are if they are being manipulated by SRF!

Guess I'll have to try some testing to see the difference. I like these events and use them to work on my driving skills without any aids. If SRF is as big a safety net as I've read, it defeats that purpose completely.

 

[Argon]

...clipped.."Hey man, what's SRF stand for?"
"Skid Recovery Force, it helps the cars be more stable in the corners, makes them a little easier to drive"
"So like when you are on harder tires you slide less...Oh that sounds cool, I'd like that"
"Yeah it comes in handy when you are learning the game"

Then he goes back and checks the SRF box and voila, here we are. I really believe it's that simple.

You're probably 100% correct too

 

[Ills1999]

ASM+SRF=ASM in IRL.

 

[Lock2Lock]

ASM+SRF=ASM in IRL.

Yep it is just godly in GT5.

 

[StirlingMoose]

ASM+SRF=ASM in IRL.

No it doesn't. There is no analogue of SRF in real life. The clue is in the name. It is a force not a traction management system. It provides a force to stop the car sliding which is above and beyond the force that can be provided by the grip of the tyres.
And the reason I don't want to use it is not because I consider myself a great driver who is above using aids, but precisely the opposite. I'm a pretty bad driver who wants to improve, and SRF rewards bad driving.
Good drivers have a different reason for not using it. It slows them down. A perfect line driven right at the edge of grip will always be faster than cornering too fast and letting SRF sort it out, and when a good driver wants to deliberately slide they don't want some magic force interfering.
If SRF was forced on in a TT I think it would make no difference to the order but would compress the field. The aliens would probably be as fast or slightly slower and the mortals would see an improvement in their times inversely proportional to their skill.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

No it doesn't. There is no analogue of SRF in real life. The clue is in the name. It is a force not a traction management system. It provides a force to stop the car sliding which is above and beyond the force that can be provided by the grip of the tyres.
And the reason I don't want to use it is not because I consider myself a great driver who is above using aids, but precisely the opposite. I'm a pretty bad driver who wants to improve, and SRF rewards bad driving.
Good drivers have a different reason for not using it. It slows them down. A perfect line driven right at the edge of grip will always be faster than cornering too fast and letting SRF sort it out, and when a good driver wants to deliberately slide they don't want some magic force interfering.
If SRF was forced on in a TT I think it would make no difference to the order but would compress the field. The aliens would probably be as fast or slightly slower and the mortals would see an improvement in their times inversely proportional to their skill.

SRF is quite a bit faster than without it.

 

[Cote Dazur]

No it doesn't. There is no analogue of SRF in real life. The clue is in the name. It is a force not a traction management system..

Ills1999, SRF is about as connected to real life as this:

and has about the same effect, may the force be with you Ills1999 .

 

[Ills1999]

No it doesn't. There is no analogue of SRF in real life. The clue is in the name. It is a force not a traction management system. It provides a force to stop the car sliding which is above and beyond the force that can be provided by the grip of the tyres.
.

Nope. It prevents one from surpassing the grip limits through computer controlled throttle application, which isn't the same as the computer using the brakes at specific wheels to control a vehicle which is threatening to break traction.(not to mention yaw control, etc.)

Both are used in modern Stability Control systems in real life.

Ills1999, SRF is about as connected to real life as this:

and has about the same effect, may the force be with you Ills1999 .

It's still possible to slide in GT5 with SRF on.

 

[Argon]

SRF is quite a bit faster than without it.

Is it really faster for the top runners? I can't prove it one way or another but from my perspective it seems hard to agree. As I understand it SRF it does not make your tyres more sticky nor does it push the car onto the road with any greater force. It only comes into play when your car is in a skid within a turn, then it's like an invisible hand pushing the car back onto line and twisting it so that it's pointing at the perfect exit angle. Surely this would interfere with the top runners who are deliberately using oversteer to rotate a car through a turn to get an early exit line. A line that might not correlate with what SRF thinks by the way.

I don't know but I tend to agree with SterlingMoose in that SRF in a TT would simply compress the field. The mid to low order runners would see a marked improvement in their times but I'm not so sure about the fastest guys.

....just my two cents for what it's worth


Edit:
@ ills1999, sorry but I definitely do NOT agree with your definition of how SRF works. Yaw control and anti skid control as seen in modern productions cars is most definitely NOT what is happening with SRF. Since when did these modern production techniques physically re-point the car at the correct exit angle? Which is what happens with SRF.

 

[Cote Dazur]

SRF is quite a bit faster than without it.

I am also a lot faster with SFR on.

Whish would be OK, I dont mind beeing faster, if it was not destroying the physic of the game at the same time.
If they had given the name Arcade mode, maybe it would be easier for some to understand.

It's still possible to slide in GT5 with SRF on

This is totally acurate, we agree on that point, mind you if it was not possible to slide at all anymore, it would be even more ridiculous. LOL

 

[NCRthree]

ills1999- What you described in the above post about throttle application control sounds like what the aid "Traction Control" does in GT5. And ASM seems like what GT5 tries to mimic in real life stability management systems.

I've always thought SRF was similar in concept to "Active Steering". A virtual driving aid with no correlation to any real life system.

Anyway, I'm going to try driving with and without SRF just for kicks after work today. Going to try with a stock 89 Miata on Tsukuba CH tires no aids other than SRF on and off.

 

[Ills1999]

Edit:
@ ills1999, sorry but I definitely do NOT agree with your definition of how SRF works. Yaw control and anti skid control as seen in modern productions cars is most definitely NOT what is happening with SRF. Since when did these modern production techniques physically re-point the car at the correct exit angle? Which is what happens with SRF.

SRF doesn't physically re-point the car at the correct exit angle. I just ran some practices at suzuka with your argument in mind. I had no trouble sliding and not getting pointed in the correct direction with SRF on.

ills1999- What you described in the above post about throttle application control sounds like what the aid "Traction Control" does in GT5. And ASM seems like what GT5 tries to mimic in real life stability management systems.

I've always thought SRF was similar in concept to "Active Steering". A virtual driving aid with no correlation to any real life system.

Anyway, I'm going to try driving with and without SRF just for kicks after work today. Going to try with a stock 89 Miata on Tsukuba CH tires no aids other than SRF on and off.

I think you're going to be surprised.

...if it was not possible to slide at all anymore, it would be even more ridiculous. LOL

lol

One of the most common arguments against is that people feel that they'll pick up bad habits by being forced to run with SRF. I don't share this fear. People should adapt to the environment. Fast drivers are generally fast on EVERYTHING, four wheels, two wheels, pavement, dirt, snow etc. Jumping from ride to ride in real life generally requires a little seat time to get familiar with the particular machine. It's all part of operating the machinery.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Seems to be some confusion towards exactly what SRF is.

I would describe it as a grip multiplier, much like how the tyre rating is in the game, proven through various tests on GTP (each tyre grade increases cornering G's by 0.05g IIRC).

SRF is 'on' all the time when you have it selected, it is always giving the tyre more grip than normal, but it depends how close to the tyre's limit you are. The more you bring a tyre to it's limit, the more the SRF effects increase (and dramatically so).

It's true that leaving it on creates bad habits, as SRF actually encourages you to push the tyres well beyond their 100% grip capability, as it adds a substantial amount of extra grip when you are in that situation. Hence how you are able to aggresively throw a car into a corner way above usual apex speeds, and mash the throttle much earlier upon exit than you normally should, creating a very smokey situation since the tyres are in a near constant state of being over heated.

It doesn't matter which car you are driving and what circuit you are on, once you learn how to exploit SRF, you will be several seconds a lap faster than without it. That's also how it doesn't exist in real life, it is physically impossible to make that rubber grip more than 100%, unless some very clever nanotechnology becomes integrated into tyre/rubber designs.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Is it really faster for the top runners? I can't prove it one way or another but from my perspective it seems hard to agree.

It should be much faster. It gives you magic traction.

Nope. It prevents one from surpassing the grip limits through computer controlled throttle application, which isn't the same as the computer using the brakes at specific wheels to control a vehicle which is threatening to break traction.(not to mention yaw control, etc.)

Both are used in modern Stability Control systems in real life.

It is not realistic SRF. It was designed to stop divide in physics like in GT5P. It is designed to give magic traction when you start losing traction.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Nope. It prevents one from surpassing the grip limits through computer controlled throttle application, which isn't the same as the computer using the brakes at specific wheels to control a vehicle which is threatening to break traction.(not to mention yaw control, etc.)

Both are used in modern Stability Control systems in real life.

It's still possible to slide in GT5 with SRF on.

I believe SRF is an override on the physics of the game that removes much of the detrimental effects of oversteer including the loss of control and much of the loss of speed. It's much easier with SRF on, to throw any car, on any tire, into a drift and power through it with much less loss of speed. If you know how to use it to your advantage it provides a significant edge in lap times. I'm 1-2 seconds a lap faster with it (haven't used it since way back in the beginning but I remember the testing I did) at Tracks like Deep Forest and Trial Mountain and it almost didn't matter what lines you took so long as you kept your foot down.

 

[Argon]

SRF doesn't physically re-point the car at the correct exit angle. I just ran some practices at suzuka with your argument in mind. I had no trouble sliding and not getting pointed in the correct direction with SRF on.

Then you are not running your test correctly. Firstly SRF will not prevent a 100% off track event from happening it will only work at the outer margins of control so, if you deliberately try to slide your car off the track guess what, you are sliding off the track SRF or no SRF. The SRF physics will only work at the outer margins of control i.e. just at the point of being out of control

If you have slightly (emphasis on slightly) overcooked the approach to a turn then brake hard to correct the over-speed entry your car will start to slide. SRF will detect the slide then kick in to help the car around the corner but it's not doing this by applying brake and throttle at the four corners of the car as in anti skid or yaw control it's a much more brutal force. It completely over-rules all natural physics to push the car around the turn AND ensure that the car is at the correct exit angle. The Eifel kart track in the latest seasonal is an ideal place to try SRF and I assure you that if you have true feeling for your car you will feel that the car is being magically guided around the corners and is somehow always set up for the ideal exit.

If SRF were simply anti-skid control as you suggest then there is no way on this planet that using SRF would speed up your lap time. Those types of control are all specifically designed to SLOW you down in order for you to regain control.

 

[DrKronin]

Nope. It prevents one from surpassing the grip limits through computer controlled throttle application, which isn't the same as the computer using the brakes at specific wheels to control a vehicle which is threatening to break traction.(not to mention yaw control, etc.)

This is not true. For example SRF affects car behavior under braking or when coasting off-throttle. It doesn't have anything to do with the throttle.

It's a hack to the tire physics model to allow for more grip during a slide than would ever be present in real tires, which have very little grip once they start sliding.

 

[jonnyb1990]

I agree with much that has been said on this, it's a pain having it forced on, it should always been an option if not forced off.
I would say it makes you faster in higher powered cars (X1 Challenge as my justification), it allows you to break later and seems to actually promote the slide off the throttle; allowing you to do a rally style high yaw then power approach.
However with lower power cars, it does interrupt quicker lines, where you balance the car on the throttle, not to mention the annoying tendency to change the car's direction not just yaw angle under braking does make me especially question why it seems to be used mostly on low PP events, turning cars that are usually a pleasure on slippy tyres into an understeery frustrating mess.

 

[NCRthree]

Well, just spent an hour testing out SRF on and off. This was strictly for my own curiosity, not a judgement on anyone whatsoever. I'd never used it before and really wanted to see for myself it's effects.

Ran a 89 Premium Miata totally stock on Tsukuba in Practice Mode Time Trial. 80 miles on the car. Tire wear off like in the seasonals. No aids. No ABS. BB of 2/0. I drove like I would normally. Just keeping a steady line, slow in fast out. Cockpit view. No attempts at drifting heroics-just regular driving.

Started on CH tires which would seem closest to original equip. tires to be generous. SRF OFF. Car has plenty of traction but loses front end grip on exit causing some minor instability-otherwise an easy drive. Was doing mid-high 1:16's consistently for 12 laps.

Next SRF ON. I'm immediately faster without even trying. Matched my best SRF OFF time on cold tires-first lap! The exit instability vanished, the car pointed up perfectly like it had a wire pulling it through. I was sawing the wheel pretty good on exiting with SRF OFF but with it on just point up and go. Was able to push my braking further and further and I'm running 1 full second faster easily and consistently. It felt like I'd put on one grade better tires. After that I went back to the CH's without SRF and kept falling behind my ghost on all exiting.

The grip effect got me wondering so I ran CM tires next with SRF OFF. This feels eerily familiar. The car entered and exited completely stable much like it had with SRF ON with CH's. I was quickly able to run mid 1:14's leaving the SRF ON CH ghost behind at every turn. More speed and stability in every transition. Went back to CH SRF ON and couldn't keep pace with my new fast time.

So like I said, I didn't try any panic moves or drift attempts to compare SRF ON or OFF. Just wanted to try my normal pace. What was odd is that I ran almost exactly 1 second apart with each variable. It basically felt like CH SRF ON was an in between tire grade from CH to CM. I did force one turn with CM SRF OFF and spun out in Turn 2. Tried that with CH SRF ON and the car started to spin but felt like it dug it's tires in to, lol- recover it's spin!

Mainly wanted to see if I could enjoy driving with SRF ON in the latest seasonals or if it made the car feel too unnatural. If I don't try any wacky driving styles, it's probably going to feel like a tire upgrade. I still don't understand PD's motive with forcing it on though. Did they feel the AI was too fast for an average driver or is it just a dumb over sight? Who knows.

 

[Cote Dazur]

. Did they feel the AI was too fast for an average driver .

If that was the case all they have to do is leave the option accessible and everyone can decide if they need it or not.

 

[Ills1999]

I wonder if it's a way to prevent players from easily punting AI cars.