STAR WARS General Discussion | Warning: Possible SPOILERS!Movies 

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I really liked TLJ, honestly I might even put it as my 2nd favourite SW movie after Empire.

I think it probably ran about 30mins too long but overall I liked it a lot. I loved the Rey/Luke/Kylo story arc, Ridley/Driver just have incredible chemistry and Rey disobeying LUKE :censored:ing SKYWALKER to reach out to Kylo (and being proven right) was amazing IMO. Luke and Kylo both being scarred by the memory of Vader and it creating their conflict was great. Rey immediately gets tempted by the dark side just like Kylo with Vader. Kylo destroying the mask and Luke's "this isn't going to go how you think" is the film in a nutshell IMO.

The whole thing just subverted the fanfic setup from TFA, we were all ready for Luke to train Rey like Yoda's trained Luke, and for Rey to be Luke's daughter and to fight Kylo. Instead we get Yoda's ghost literally destroying the Jedi/SW canon so Luke can finally move forward, and Rey being just as orphaned as Finn. Then we get Rey and Kylo teaming up to fight Snoke but Kylo still being so impulsive and hot-headed about Luke that Rey can get away etc.

In the end Luke (along with Leia/Holdo) have to grudgingly admit that Rey/Finn/Poe were right and the resistance needs to fight differently to avoid falling into the same trap as the prequel and original trilogy Republics that fell to the Empire/First Order. But the Holdo/Poe arc is great and Holdo ends up being vindicated too. When she tells Poe the plan at the end he immediately blabs to Finn and the plan leaks to the First Order and 2/3 of the ships are destroyed.

I just love the idea that Rey/Finn/Poe/Kylo are all fighting a conflict that's bigger than them but they're thrust into those roles because their leaders failed them. Luke sits idly by on an island while the First Order took control and murdered billions in the last movie. Snoke turned out to be a paper tiger. The Republic was toothless in stopping the First Order just as they were shown to be toothless in stopping the Empire in the prequels and Rogue One.

Leia was usurped by Poe, and Rey undermines Luke's wishes and is vindicated by seeing Kylo can still be turned. They're all flawed characters who constantly deal with failure and are picking up the pieces from the failures of Luke/Han/Leia/Vader/Snoke/ etc. and the Republic in general. They're struggling to find their place and constantly learn from failure themselves.

The Finn/Rose stuff was kinda fun ish and I liked how it reckons with the real human consequences of the war to the non-special characters (like Rogue One) but it ran about a half hour too long. The Leia thing was cheesy but whatever, it's a movie about magic space wizards with laser swords. Just wish they could have just had her be seriously injured but still in the ship when the bridge was destroyed instead of flying into space. I don't really care too much about the cutesy stuff, it was a bit much but overall I didn't hate it and we already have a really dark Star Wars movie in Rogue One. Ultimately Star Wars is pulp fantasy about space wizards made to sell toys to kids so I can't get too upset about porgs.

I like Rose as a character for the same reasons I like Rogue One (she's a "real" person and not a magic space wizard) but overall their subplot of riding horses around space Vegas/Monaco was a bit ehhhh and too long. I don't think it quite hits all its beats, and the Jedi books being saved at the end was frustrating and undermined a lot of what I liked so much about TLJ. But overall I loved that the movie subverted the expectations of the Star Wars canon and made something new.

My updated rankings/tiers is probably:

Empire, The Last Jedi, A New Hope
----
Rogue One
----
Return of the Jedi
----
The Force Awakens
---
Revenge of the Sith
---
Attack of the Clones The Phantom Menace
[/spoilers]
 
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Just watched TLJ for the second time...

The ending was even better the second time around. Rest of the movie is good but not great. I think my original rating stands.

One thing I totally missed the first time was that the kid at the end used the force to grab the broom that was leaning against the wall. Now that scene actually means something to me, was lost before.
 
Managed to go see it on Xmas eve. Overall thought it was good but need to see it again i think. A few things stuck out though.

Start was good and it set the overall theme for the film, but didn't really like the humour between Hux and Poe and the 'boosted' X-wing seemed totally unnecessary.

Didn't think the 'Leia dead in space' bit was well executed.

Also. If the bridge was destroyed with Leia in it, where was Holdo piloting the ship from when she jumped to hyperspace?

The whole Canto Bight section felt far too prequel trilogy.

What should have been quite a dark film was enlightened too much with humour and cuteness IMO.
 
Went to see it last night (couldn't go before Christmas). Although the ending kind of saved it, my overall impression goes firmly into the "dislike" camp.

Don't plan to see it again in theaters, I'll pick it up in blu ray (to add to the colection) once it gets to half-price.

My faith in Disney to keep SW being SW and feeling like SW now resides in the animation department, even if these also do some mistakes. As long as Dave Filoni is the boss there I think good things may still be released in the future.

Ackbar, it won't matter if you've been - literally - wasted. Long will you be remembered.

PS - I love Laura Dern, but it should've been you doing that, I would even shed a tear on what was otherwise a scene I barely felt
 
I quite liked it.

Because I'd intentionally and thoroughly spoiled it for myself before watching it, none of the stuff that seems to have offended people has really bothered me that much. I do think it is somewhat weak in places, but I think it's very strong in others. Happy to admit that Luke and Leia together again punched me right in the feel gland, which did make me tear up... same with the ending.

On the whole, I got a strong ESB vibe from it, that's not to say it has the same relationship to ESB as TFA did to ANH, but I do think "The First Order Strikes Back" would be a very apt title.... my point is though, that it did not leave me with a warm and Fuzzy feeling, in the same way that Empire didn't, hence it was always my least favourite of the OT.. (Hey, I was like 5... I wanted to see the good guys blow stuff up, not get butchered and tortured!).

Essentially, I think a lot of elements are mirrors of OT stuff, but this time around we get to see them play out differently, and I'm okay with that.
 
Saw The Last Jedi on New Year's Eve. Prepare for a text dump:

"This is not going to go the way you think." If that one line doesn't sum up how this film turned out, I don't think much else will.

First off, I can understand the split opinion about how it went about things. It's feels different to any other Star Wars film that's gone before... perhaps too different for some to handle. I think one of the problems was that The Force Awakens had (unintentionally or otherwise) built up questions that ultimately lead to nothing in TLJ, or gave answers that felt somewhat underwhelming. Rey's parentage for example: I get that the intended message is that "no-one can be someone", which works in the grand scheme of things. But it could be viewed that because the mystery behind who she was had been played up so much, revealing that her parents had sold her off for money and ended up dying on Jakku leaving her an orphan, wasn't the answer that many were hoping for. That said, I can't shake the feeling that this is not the end of this particular thread. Considering it was Ben Solo who told Rey this, chances are what he really saw when they connected wasn't what he told her in person, in an attempt to make her feel demoralised enough to see that the only choice left was to join his new crusade. I'm probably reading too much into it, but I guess we'll see in Episode 9 if the matter is taken any further...

I did enjoy their Force Facetime calls, though. What intrigued me was how Ben was able to have spots of rain on his face after talking to Rey the second (or third?) time, despite being on opposite sides of the galaxy. Maybe having such a close connection through the Force meant that aspects of their immediate surroundings were transferred as well as their thoughts/spoken words. Guess anything's possible in this galaxy of space wizards with oversized glow-sticks.

I do agree the trip to Canto Bight was bit meh, if only because it could've been approached differently. Rather than Rose do an expositional dump coupled with shots of abused animals and kids, and tycoons enjoying the spoils of war, maybe it would have been portrayed better if it slowly exposed the dark truth behind all that shine, rather than kicking the door down and basically saying "It's all evil. Move on." As it is, by the time del Toro's character ultimately betrays Finn and Rose, the whole segment just felt a bit empty, seemingly only required to fulfil some sort of unofficial obligation to include a scene that pays homage to Mos Eisley Cantina.

I didn't mind the space puffins, even though I knew what every parent who saw this film pre-Christmas must have been thinking. I will admit, when I inadvertently first saw screenshots of the one in the Falcon's cockpit with Chewie, I thought it was a rabbit with black ears, not a guinea pig with black wings.

As for Leia, the concept of using the Force to get back to the Raddus was perhaps a bit odd in its application, but then like a lot of things in TLJ, it's something that's not been done before. It would make sense if she'd learned to use the Force in some other capacity during the 30 years leading up to TFA, beyond her early abilities in ROTJ, but I think it threw a lot of people because there was no tease of such a thing being possible beforehand. It's always been Force-sensitive powers when it comes to Leia, not making things float as Rey put it to Luke on Ahch-To. It's probably certain that as Fisher is unfortunately no longer with us there will be a time skip between TLJ and Episode 9, with Leia having passed away or perhaps retired as General during that as yet undisclosed time frame.

As a whole, TLJ was a very good film, one not afraid to pull out a few surprises along the way, and challenge the conventions of the franchise, which I think is a good thing. Being set in a far away galaxy, its story only really occupies a small corner of it. The Skywalkers helped to build the foundations, but the franchise can't rely on them forever. The theme of leaving the past behind is evident throughout the film's narrative, kicking off right at the start with Ben smashing his mask against the elevator walls after being degraded by Snoke. Like Luke learning to let go of his past mistakes, Star Wars won't forget where it came from, but at the same time it needs to look to the future, build new worlds, tell new stories, inspire a new generation if it wants to continue selling the merchandise. :P

I suspect a lot of the backlash from fans comes from either theorising for the 2 years between TFA and TLJ and not getting the answers they thought they had nailed down, or certain conventions that form the series' backbone were either retuned, or simply not done the right way. The Star Wars way.

On that note you could say the scene where Rey "reaches out" to the Force for the first time acts like a metaphor: the stone cracking around her is the cracking of those conventions that have stayed rock solid in the eyes of many for the last 40 years.

There are elements of passed films here (some from ROTJ which was interesting considering this is the middle of a trilogy), but like TFA, they feel different enough to be their own thing. The ending felt just like that: an ending, but with the kid in the stables seeing the Falcon streak across the night sky on Canto Bight, it acts like a beginning too. You could say that TLJ acts as the closing of one door and the opening of another. The bridge between generations if you will. Whatever happens in Episode 9, you get the sense it will do so on its own terms, rather than rely on the ghosts of the past.

4/5


Favourite scenes:
  • Seeing the Raddus shoot through the fleet of Star Destroyers and Snoke's Star Dreadnought at lightspeed, resulting in the ships fracturing like glass, coupled with the immediate silence before the explosion... wow! :eek:
  • Puppet Yoda. Totally unexpected, but a nice touch. Intriguing as well: he's a ghost, yet was able to physically tap Luke on the forehead with his cane.
  • Luke's goodbye. The feeling I got behind the reason he did a Kenobi - because of being disconnected from the Force for so long, the task of projecting himself on Crait and fighting against Ben, ultimately proved too much for his aged body. But although he had ultimately failed Ben, because he'd helped to ignite the spark that would lead to the rebuilding of the Republic, he felt he had been redeemed, and could at last be at peace. I think it also served as a sort of redemption for Hamill too: in the years following the original trilogy, both Fisher and Harrison's stars continued to glow, turning in some great roles in their respective careers. Hamill never seemed to get the same treatment: if anything, arguably, Star Wars was the undoing of the guy, despite having one of the biggest roles in the franchise. In TLJ, his portrayal of a mentally scarred, older, arrogant Luke becoming the beacon of hope, felt like he was putting to rest the stigma of effectively being forgotten as an actor and being known simply as that guy who played the kid who saved the galaxy from his asthmatic Father.
 
Lot's of good points there @Carbon_6

It would make sense if she'd learned to use the Force in some other capacity during the 30 years leading up to TFA, beyond her early abilities in ROTJ, but I think it threw a lot of people because there was no tease of such a thing being possible beforehand.

Since the "There is another" line in Empire it's been known that Leia could be strong in the force, and they've been working this into the other media for a little while. It doesn't help your average movie-goer but with hindsight it shouldn't have been a big surprise to see Leia using the force more actively to those that read the books and comics etc. I can understand if people don't like the execution of the scene though.
 
Lot's of good points there @Carbon_6



Since the "There is another" line in Empire it's been known that Leia could be strong in the force, and they've been working this into the other media for a little while. It doesn't help your average movie-goer but with hindsight it shouldn't have been a big surprise to see Leia using the force more actively to those that read the books and comics etc. I can understand if people don't like the execution of the scene though.
Aren't the books and comics seen as non-canon now.
 
Aren't the books and comics seen as non-canon now.

Only the books and comics that have been released since Disney took over count... everything before (i.e. uncoordinated fan fiction) is now branded as "LEGENDS", they're still available, but they are not Canon.

If people want a read, the Aftermath Trilogy and Bloodlines are the main ones that sit between ROTJ and TFA/TLJ.
 
Only the books and comics that have been released since Disney took over count... everything before (i.e. uncoordinated fan fiction) is now branded as "LEGENDS", they're still available, but they are not Canon.

Doesn't mean that all of it is off limits in terms of being source material. General Admiral Thrawn, who appeared in season 3 of SW Rebels in 2016, came from the non-canon line of stories.
 
Doesn't mean that all of it is off limits in terms of being source material. General Admiral Thrawn, who appeared in season 3 of SW Rebels in 2016, came from the non-canon line of stories.

True, he also got a Novel, and will get another this year, describing his Canon backstory - some of which tallies with Zahn's pre-Disney books, but some doesn't. The character name and likeness is canon (a bit like Darth Bane), but if you knew the character pre-Disney it's not safe to assume the details or backstory are the same.
 
Doesn't mean that all of it is off limits in terms of being source material. General Admiral Thrawn, who appeared in season 3 of SW Rebels in 2016, came from the non-canon line of stories.

This is an important factor too, while certain books before Disney took over are non-canon, the Plagueis story was suppose to happen before the Disney take over and was canceled, interesting thing is it was then reinstated and released and thus a non-canon vision made canon. At any point in time Disney can do more of this with classic stories from further back. Not only that, but some of the stuff already unfolding is taking inspiration from released novels that are currently seen as non-canon.
 
This is an important factor too, while certain books before Disney took over are non-canon, the Plagueis story was suppose to happen before the Disney take over and was canceled, interesting thing is it was then reinstated and released and thus a non-canon vision made canon. At any point in time Disney can do more of this with classic stories from further back. Not only that, but some of the stuff already unfolding is taking inspiration from released novels that are currently seen as non-canon.

Plagueis as a character is only canonical thanks to Palpatine's mention of him during RotS. The book is not canon, the events of the book are therefore not Canon beyond the tradegy of Darth Plagueis the Wise tale that Palpatine talks about in the film.

edit; from what I recall, Heir to the Jedi was pre-disney, but launched after the takeover, hence, it is canon.
 
Plagueis as a character is only canonical thanks to Palpatine's mention of him during RotS. The book is not canon, the events of the book are therefore not Canon beyond the tradegy of Darth Plagueis the Wise tale that Palpatine talks about in the film.

edit; from what I recall, Heir to the Jedi was pre-disney, but launched after the takeover, hence, it is canon.

Yes I know that, my point is some of what was further explained in the story has been seen as canon, even though it's labeled legends. Further to the point is that while there are many legends stories, that doesn't mean they can't inspire or be actually used later on as canon. Which is the easiest way to explain Ben Solo being the cinematic version of Jacen Solo in spirit.
 
Doesn't mean that all of it is off limits in terms of being source material. General Admiral Thrawn, who appeared in season 3 of SW Rebels in 2016, came from the non-canon line of stories.
Lucasfilm has said that they reserve the right to pick and choose from Legends whenever they feel something will fit well within the current canon story lines.
 
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The Last Jedi has got to be my favorite Star Wars film in, like, forever.

If only because of the frothing at the mouth it causes for so many fans. It would be ungentlemanly to use the word "butthurt", but the level of rationalization and deflection and subjective blindness that comes with their criticism of it on social media is intense.

Granted, the movie isn't perfect. too much time was spent on Canto Bight doing nothing, the whole purpose of that segment unreeled in a single exposition by Rose (number one rule... SHOW, don't SAY), the Rebel's escape plan made little to no sense, given what we know about Star Wars hyperdrive (then again, I groan at Star Wars movie physics, anyway... and it's not as bad as the Starkiller firing scene in TFA), and the movie, despite cuts made that arguably hurt the story, was still about twenty minutes too long. It's not an easy movie to digest in one sitting.

But it replaces Lucas' pseudo-philosophical ramblings with something more concrete, with challenges posed to new viewers and long-time fans alike. I can understand how it pisses people off, but honestly, the raw vitriol over a fictional movie universe built on the bones of a story that Lucas was basically making up as he went along is priceless.
 
I was entertained. Moving forward, the story telling needs more work. Empire Strikes Back will always be the best in this tale.

I fell for the banana in the tail pipe.... only because I tolerated it and it was an 8:50pm showing.
Remember each movie had a running joke or line? eg, "delusions of grandeur", "you assume too much", "it's not my fault". This movie was about "they need more time". The whole movie stalled for time. Not in the way all the movies before have.

After watching the might of the order dispatch a whole fleet, why did a tiny ship last 19 hours? Lame excuse for not catching Leia's ship, "lighter and faster"? Next time, they should get the ships from Corellia.

When pulling up after a jump from light speed, make sure to pull up over the destination. Not 19+ hours away. Oh, but THAT redeeming moment by Laura Dern! :eek::drool:

I like Benecio Del Toro in GOTG and Sicario. I don't know if we'll see this character in the future, but it wasn't much of a shock what he revealed to FN. Two smugglers/swindlers became Generals for forces sake. How else are "rebels" going to get weapons?

The scenes on the island, i have no problem with the writers fast tracking her "training".

"Thank the maker" for the Fallkun. Still my pic in any space adventure.

Snoke was a joke. General Greivous had more substance in his eye sockets than this guy.

As for the comedy, I'm paralleling it to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. As a SW fan, it was fine for this movie. I laughed along during all the funny bits.

Well, Disney are going to keep this saga going for as long as who knows. As a 12yo kid in1983, I was sad at the start of the end credits to ROTJ. I held onto what I thought would be the last, greatest, on screen, space adventure in my life. I'm glad to see it continue on. Like I typed, "I was entertained".
 
Well it appears I'm again the general consensus here. I really didn't like the movie because I feel it to be inconsistent with the rest of the saga. But hey, apparently it made millions as expected, so Disney is right and I am wrong ... :boggled:

Anyways, I think this review nails it, and it isn't some hate filled superfan making it as many are.

 
I was entertained. Moving forward, the story telling needs more work. Empire Strikes Back will always be the best in this tale.

I fell for the banana in the tail pipe.... only because I tolerated it and it was an 8:50pm showing.
Remember each movie had a running joke or line? eg, "delusions of grandeur", "you assume too much", "it's not my fault". This movie was about "they need more time". The whole movie stalled for time. Not in the way all the movies before have.

After watching the might of the order dispatch a whole fleet, why did a tiny ship last 19 hours? Lame excuse for not catching Leia's ship, "lighter and faster"? Next time, they should get the ships from Corellia.

When pulling up after a jump from light speed, make sure to pull up over the destination. Not 19+ hours away. Oh, but THAT redeeming moment by Laura Dern! :eek::drool:

I like Benecio Del Toro in GOTG and Sicario. I don't know if we'll see this character in the future, but it wasn't much of a shock what he revealed to FN. Two smugglers/swindlers became Generals for forces sake. How else are "rebels" going to get weapons?

The scenes on the island, i have no problem with the writers fast tracking her "training".

"Thank the maker" for the Fallkun. Still my pic in any space adventure.

Snoke was a joke. General Greivous had more substance in his eye sockets than this guy.

As for the comedy, I'm paralleling it to Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. As a SW fan, it was fine for this movie. I laughed along during all the funny bits.

Well, Disney are going to keep this saga going for as long as who knows. As a 12yo kid in1983, I was sad at the start of the end credits to ROTJ. I held onto what I thought would be the last, greatest, on screen, space adventure in my life. I'm glad to see it continue on. Like I typed, "I was entertained".
Nah mate, Revenge of the Sith all the way :P :sly:

Should I now prepare to defend myself :lol:?
 
Well it appears I'm again the general consensus here. I really didn't like the movie because I feel it to be inconsistent with the rest of the saga. But hey, apparently it made millions as expected, so Disney is right and I am wrong ... :boggled:

Anyways, I think this review nails it, and it isn't some hate filled superfan making it as many are.



To go over the plot points in that video one by one:

1. Luke's reaction to the saber depends on interpretation, but sadness/resignation/fear do not preclude him from tossing the saber over the edge of the cliff.

2. Rey's parents: The first flashback only shows them leaving on a ship. It doesn't say how they got on that ship or how much was paid for Rey. Ren could have been lying, but then again, we are given exactly zero clues as to who Rey is, and her last name is omitted on purpose simply to keep us guessing.

3. Snoke: Good twist, I think. Snoke was presented as a dark mysterious figure, but in true Lucasfilm tradition, he was not given copious backstory as such. We didn't get backstory on Grievous, Dooku, Sidious or pre-Sidious Palpatine within their respective movie appearances, either.

A lot of the so-called inconsistencies are the products of fan expectations more than anything else. Rian was careful not to create glaring plot holes and inconsistencies with previous movies, and I think he did decently. Though where Laura Dern was hiding during TFA, we'll never find out. :lol:


TLJ had its issues, definitely, but those aren't quite as illogical or as bad as he makes them out to be. In fact, TLJ makes TFA worth rewatching, as some scenes there make more sense now that TLJ is out.

Also:

LOTR benefitted from being based on an existing story, for one thing, and it benefitted from being filmed as a piece, instead of at separate dates, like most trilogies, which meant it was filmed as one movie and then split into three. Which makes the narrative more cohesive, but then, a lot is owed to the meticulous editing of the movies. Having sat through the excruciating extended editions with a lot of the cut footage put back in, I can tell you that without that editing, the stories would have been a mess. As it was, there were a lot of problems with the LOTR films as compared to the books, and a lot of stuff Jackson made up on the spot. Like the Arwen substory, a lot of the Legolas footage, the fate of Saruman, the cutting of Tom Bombadil and the Sharky epilogue plot (despite it being teased in Frodo's vision in the very first movie). Even discounting that, there's the absolutely stupid earthquake at the end, which magically manages to exactly swallow up the orc army without harming the humans. A small nit in an otherwise good movie, but that and the elephant surfing and the CGI-fest ghost army were worrying signs that grandiose silliness was starting to overtake Peter Jackson... a trend that came to full fruition with the godawfully over-indulgent King Kong (a movie that was good in parts but which suffered from extreme length and pointless CGI).

The Hobbit's biggest issue is that Jackson extended a single book, good for merely an afternooon's reading, into three movies. They had to invent so much filler for that, and had to invent so much of the dialogue and scenes that the original story was diluted almost beyond recognition.
 
To go over the plot points in that video one by one:

1. Luke's reaction to the saber depends on interpretation, but sadness/resignation/fear do not preclude him from tossing the saber over the edge of the cliff.

2. Rey's parents: The first flashback only shows them leaving on a ship. It doesn't say how they got on that ship or how much was paid for Rey. Ren could have been lying, but then again, we are given exactly zero clues as to who Rey is, and her last name is omitted on purpose simply to keep us guessing.

3. Snoke: Good twist, I think. Snoke was presented as a dark mysterious figure, but in true Lucasfilm tradition, he was not given copious backstory as such. We didn't get backstory on Grievous, Dooku, Sidious or pre-Sidious Palpatine within their respective movie appearances, either.

A lot of the so-called inconsistencies are the products of fan expectations more than anything else. Rian was careful not to create glaring plot holes and inconsistencies with previous movies, and I think he did decently. Though where Laura Dern was hiding during TFA, we'll never find out. :lol:


TLJ had its issues, definitely, but those aren't quite as illogical or as bad as he makes them out to be. In fact, TLJ makes TFA worth rewatching, as some scenes there make more sense now that TLJ is out.

Also:

LOTR benefitted from being based on an existing story, for one thing, and it benefitted from being filmed as a piece, instead of at separate dates, like most trilogies, which meant it was filmed as one movie and then split into three. Which makes the narrative more cohesive, but then, a lot is owed to the meticulous editing of the movies. Having sat through the excruciating extended editions with a lot of the cut footage put back in, I can tell you that without that editing, the stories would have been a mess. As it was, there were a lot of problems with the LOTR films as compared to the books, and a lot of stuff Jackson made up on the spot. Like the Arwen substory, a lot of the Legolas footage, the fate of Saruman, the cutting of Tom Bombadil and the Sharky epilogue plot (despite it being teased in Frodo's vision in the very first movie). Even discounting that, there's the absolutely stupid earthquake at the end, which magically manages to exactly swallow up the orc army without harming the humans. A small nit in an otherwise good movie, but that and the elephant surfing and the CGI-fest ghost army were worrying signs that grandiose silliness was starting to overtake Peter Jackson... a trend that came to full fruition with the godawfully over-indulgent King Kong (a movie that was good in parts but which suffered from extreme length and pointless CGI).

The Hobbit's biggest issue is that Jackson extended a single book, good for merely an afternooon's reading, into three movies. They had to invent so much filler for that, and had to invent so much of the dialogue and scenes that the original story was diluted almost beyond recognition.
On your point 3, Dooku was actually given a bit of a backstory in the Prequels actually being the Jedi Master who taught Qui-Gon before going to the darkside because like Qui-Gon (but not exactly since Qui-Gon just didn't want to be in the council), he didn't agree with the Jedi councils way of handling.
 
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On your point 3, Dooku was actually given a bit of a backstory in the Prequels actually being the Jedi Master who taught Qui-Gon before going to the darkside because like Qui-Gon (but not exactly since Qui-Gon just didn't want to the council), he didn't agree with the Jedi councils way of handling.

Yet this is mentioned in exposition, and not elaborated on. Do we know exactly when he snapped? How he came into contact with Sidious? Etcetera?

I'd posit Captain America: Civil War (just because I watched it the other night on TV while failing to get to sleep) gave us more of an inkling into Zemo than any Star Wars movie did its primary villain. Except in the cases of the prequels, where they gave us more background on Anakin and Boba Fett before they became villains. As they weren't the villains of said films, I guess they don't count. :D
 
Yet this is mentioned in exposition, and not elaborated on. Do we know exactly when he snapped? How he came into contact with Sidious? Etcetera?

I'd posit Captain America: Civil War (just because I watched it the other night on TV while failing to get to sleep) gave us more of an inkling into Zemo than any Star Wars movie did its primary villain. Except in the cases of the prequels, where they gave us more background on Anakin and Boba Fett before they became villains. As they weren't the villains of said films, I guess they don't count. :D
Just because someone did it more doesn't mean the other didn't do it at all.

That's like saying yeah this movie had this but other movies did it better (or had more of) so it doesn't count. It still counts.

Dooku backstory was brief, yes it was but regardless of how we think of it, it is still a backstory.
 
Just because someone did it more doesn't mean the other didn't do it at all.

That's like saying yeah this movie had this but other movies did it better (or had more of) so it doesn't count. It still counts.

Dooku backstory was brief, yes it was but regardless of how we think of it, it is still a backstory.

None of the backstories given for villains in Star Wars movies ever makes you feel more or less about them. It's always the on-screen presence that matters most.

An effective back-story should elicit emotion, or give you insight into their actions.

Dooku acted no differently than you'd expect a traitor to, and his back-story, what there was of it, wasn't necessary to explain his on-screen actions.

A good backstory provides insight, makes you see a character's actions in a different light.

None of Star Wars' villains, except maybe Vader, have ever been anything but cardboard cut-out bad guys. (cue big bad guy cackle... "EEEEVIIIILLL!")

I like the current trilogy because Ren is different. He's not as effective as Vader, yes. But he's more complex than any movie villain in the series yet.

This may not work for everybody, but it keeps you on your toes. Will he be competent next movie? Redeemable? Totally evil? What?
 
None of the backstories given for villains in Star Wars movies ever makes you feel more or less about them. It's always the on-screen presence that matters most.

An effective back-story should elicit emotion, or give you insight into their actions.

Dooku acted no differently than you'd expect a traitor to, and his back-story, what there was of it, wasn't necessary to explain his on-screen actions.

A good backstory provides insight, makes you see a character's actions in a different light.

None of Star Wars' villains, except maybe Vader, have ever been anything but cardboard cut-out bad guys. (cue big bad guy cackle... "EEEEVIIIILLL!")

I like the current trilogy because Ren is different. He's not as effective as Vader, yes. But he's more complex than any movie villain in the series yet.

This may not work for everybody, but it keeps you on your toes. Will he be competent next movie? Redeemable? Totally evil? What?
I wasn't arguing at all if the backstory was good or not, you can think of it as you will.

I was arguing that it WAS a backstory. A bad backstory is still a backstory.
 
the movies suck, just read the novels. The Star Wars novels are excellent!

The Novels suck!

The young reader picture books are where it's at!

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