The Most Overrated Car(s) in GT4
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Is the Lotus Elise all it's cracked up to be?
I guess this is where this post ought to go, but it depends on "overrated by who". In general, the hype in the real world about the Elise leaves me scratching my head in this case.
Here's what I mean, a 1560KG car, with 390hp, custom gearing, semi-racing suspension (left at default settings), and S2 tires, and in an FR configuration, ran Laguna Seca in 1:37. That was pushing hard. There might have been a little time left out there, but not too much.
Now the Elise I have is an '03 (the other car is a '00), it weighs 806KG, has a 380hp, a full race suspension, custom gears, and S3 tires, with, naturally, an MR configuration. It ran Laguna in 1:34 (high 1:34). I know there was time left on the track, but not more than about a second, if that.
Certainly, it was faster. But.. It's just barely over half the weight of the other car. It has nearly the same power, which means a P:W ratio of 5.4 lbs per hp vs 8.8 lbs per hp, nearly, but not quite double. Being just barely over half the weight also means it ought to corner better. To say nothing of having stickier tires. And being MR, it ought to corner better due to superior balance.
And yet, despite all of that, it only managed about 3 seconds faster. I know if I gave a similar P:W ratio and S3 tires to the heavier car, it would meet or exceed that Lotus.
Not bad for an F-Body, eh?
3 secons might seem like a lot, but my Cobra, with a full race suspension, and S3 tires (stock tranny and stock engine) ran a 1:31. It's a bit more than 200kilos heavier than the Elise, and limited to 4 speeds, and has a 60's era American Big Block V8 stuffed up front. It's only advantage is a slightly better P:W ratio. Not enough to net it 3 seconds over the Elise, one wouldn't think. Particularly not when considering all the advantages the Elise needs to net 3 seconds over the F-Body.
I guess this is where this post ought to go, but it depends on "overrated by who". In general, the hype in the real world about the Elise leaves me scratching my head in this case.
Here's what I mean, a 1560KG car, with 390hp, custom gearing, semi-racing suspension (left at default settings), and S2 tires, and in an FR configuration, ran Laguna Seca in 1:37. That was pushing hard. There might have been a little time left out there, but not too much.
Now the Elise I have is an '03 (the other car is a '00), it weighs 806KG, has a 380hp, a full race suspension, custom gears, and S3 tires, with, naturally, an MR configuration. It ran Laguna in 1:34 (high 1:34). I know there was time left on the track, but not more than about a second, if that.
Certainly, it was faster. But.. It's just barely over half the weight of the other car. It has nearly the same power, which means a P:W ratio of 5.4 lbs per hp vs 8.8 lbs per hp, nearly, but not quite double. Being just barely over half the weight also means it ought to corner better. To say nothing of having stickier tires. And being MR, it ought to corner better due to superior balance.
And yet, despite all of that, it only managed about 3 seconds faster. I know if I gave a similar P:W ratio and S3 tires to the heavier car, it would meet or exceed that Lotus.
Not bad for an F-Body, eh?
3 secons might seem like a lot, but my Cobra, with a full race suspension, and S3 tires (stock tranny and stock engine) ran a 1:31. It's a bit more than 200kilos heavier than the Elise, and limited to 4 speeds, and has a 60's era American Big Block V8 stuffed up front. It's only advantage is a slightly better P:W ratio. Not enough to net it 3 seconds over the Elise, one wouldn't think. Particularly not when considering all the advantages the Elise needs to net 3 seconds over the F-Body.
Leonidae
Hmm. I'll have to try to pick up another C4 Grand Sport to have a stock one to mess with, because that shouldn't be. The 1984 Corvette was a phenomenal handler for it's time, and still good today. It was able to pull a full G on stock tires. Stock 1984 road tires. The '85 was toned down a bit due to complaints from the old men buying it (unfortunately), but not enough to call it "hopeless".
I was surprised at how the ZR-1 seems to have no grip at all, even on S3s. Very disappointing. Seems the Viper and Ford GT got most of the attention for modeling accuracy.
SirBerra
I find the Minolta is overrated because it simply isn't as fast as the Sauber or even the R92CP. By the way, I'm talking about the LMP Sauber and Minolta, not the 1300 hp rocket ships that result from the 'turbo upgrade'.
The Minolta has 50kg off the weight, maybe to make it more competitive (in real life it was not the best group C car). But despite this I still find it to be slower around most circuits than the Sauber. It would still beat the Toyota GT-ONE and friends, though.
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- SavageEvil
Thanks for the link F310.
The Sauber is the best of the Group C's, then comes the R92CP. Hopefully next GT these cars come with their real hp and weight figures.
The Elise isn't over rated at all, it's quite the fun machine, but because of the mid engine layout and it's relatively short length, it's a handful. But it looks oooh soo sexy in all white with black rims and trim.
All this talk of breaking tire grip, stop using those S2's, use N3's or N2's, those tires definately remove the grip handicap. In fact I enjoy those tires a lot more than the icey grip that the S2's sometimes has.
The Sauber is the best of the Group C's, then comes the R92CP. Hopefully next GT these cars come with their real hp and weight figures.
The Elise isn't over rated at all, it's quite the fun machine, but because of the mid engine layout and it's relatively short length, it's a handful. But it looks oooh soo sexy in all white with black rims and trim.
All this talk of breaking tire grip, stop using those S2's, use N3's or N2's, those tires definately remove the grip handicap. In fact I enjoy those tires a lot more than the icey grip that the S2's sometimes has.
SavageEvil
Oh, it's fun, but it's slow for it's P:W ratio and balance. The Lancia Stratos when fully worked has a similar P:W, and is also MR with a short wheel base, plus is from the 70s, but it'll run about 1:32 (and most of it sideways lol).
With the rep, I just somehow expected more (from the Elise).
Pink_the_Floyd
(Banned)
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May I correct you guys?
It's not Toyota Minolta but Toyota 88C-V, Minolta was just the big sposor for that car 👍
It's not Toyota Minolta but Toyota 88C-V, Minolta was just the big sposor for that car 👍
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SavageEvil
See, I don't like using Normal tires. Sure, they give the car more realistic stock handling, but I treat my cars in GT the way I would use the cars if I actually raced them. If if did real-life circuit racing, even with a stock sports car, I would not use street tires. I would buy the high performance tires equivalent to the Sports tires in GT. If I was hurtling at 130 mph around the Ring or some other notoriously dangerous track, I would not trust my life to the all-season "comfort" or "economy" tires the car would come with stock. No, I would only use some Sports tire to make sure I stick to the road and not the barriers. So I primarily use the S2s that come wih the car, using the hard sports tires for long races, and the soft for when I want just a little extra bite in the road.
That's just my opinion on tires, to each his own.
Master_Yoda
(Banned)
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Yep!LeadSlead#2Is Yoda serious?
My Skyline beat a field of LMP's
3-Wheel Drive
Agreed. I've always assumed S3's to be like Khumo Victoracers or some other similar DOT approved near-race slick. Certainly the grip is much more than normal Z rated "sports" tires. But also not quite to the level of Hoosier slicks or the like either.
N3s are fun on the right car, like the C1. But when you're flat out racing hard around a demanding track, unless one is going for personal challenge, S2s or 3s are the way to go.
Another too, with the DS at least (haven't tried a DFP yet), even with S3 tires, the cars slide and screech too much. This on top of super accelerated tire wear makes it more difficult than it really would be, to use "N3" type tires.
- 93
It's easy to beat LMP's with a Skyline....just slap a stage 4 turbo on a JGTC Skyline...
There aren't too many Skylines. The problem is that there aren't enough other cars. The game doesn't even have enough Skylines either (Unlimited V16, R30 Silhouette Formula, Tommykaira RS, etc....). 2000 cars. That's the minumum number they should have and NO MORE K CARS (and a lower percentage of FF cars)
Anyway...if I were to call any car overrated, I guess I'd have to say the RX-7. People complain about the number of GT-Rs, but what about the RX-7? People claim it handles great, but it feels way too "floaty" for me and way too tempermental when driven hard...
cerpin_taxt
There aren't too many Skylines. The problem is that there aren't enough other cars. The game doesn't even have enough Skylines either (Unlimited V16, R30 Silhouette Formula, Tommykaira RS, etc....). 2000 cars. That's the minumum number they should have and NO MORE K CARS (and a lower percentage of FF cars)
Anyway...if I were to call any car overrated, I guess I'd have to say the RX-7. People complain about the number of GT-Rs, but what about the RX-7? People claim it handles great, but it feels way too "floaty" for me and way too tempermental when driven hard...
Scaff
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GotTorque
Just my opinion (as all of this is) but I consider the Elise a far from overrated car, given the info you detailed above it sounds as if you are a FR fan and that the two cars you discussed were cars you liked to drive hard and were comfortable doing so.
On the other hand the Elise may just not suit your driving style, it is a notoriously tricky car on the limit (same goes for the real one) as was illustrated in the last round of the Virtual Track Day series, running a modified Elise around the full Suzuka circuit. The difference in lap times were quite considerable.
I actually think that GT4 comes close to the spirit of the Elise in that regard.
BTW - Small aside, but can you not double post, use the edit botton to add further info - not a brand new post, thanks.
I also notice the discussion on tyres and which ones come closest to 'real' road tyres in GT4, you may find the following of interest.
BMW M3 - An analysis of tyre choice
It looks at which GT4 tyre comes closest in terms of data and performance figures to the tyres fitted to a BMW M3.
Regards
Scaff
And stop knocking Kei cars, how are they overrated? As has been said about other cars before, no one seriously rates them to begin with, so they would struggle to be overrated. Besides the AZ-1 was a major delight to drive when it was pepped up a bit.
Double post?
Anyway, I am an FR fan, but I have found magic in MR and am quite comfortable with it now. The 2 problems I used to have (non-existant turn in and uncontrollable fishtailing) no longer trouble me.
In fact, the best time around that track that I put in was a 1:30 in a GT40 (on S3s). The Spirra was a dream, the Stratos is right up there at 1:32, and I know a modded Ford GT will put in amazing times. As would 2 of my favorites - the XJ220 and Cien.
The Stratos has a bit more weight, and I think a bit less power (can't remember exactly right at the moment). It put up better times.
I love how the Elise looks. Especially in metallic purple with black rims (with a silver lip), but it is just not living up to the hype.
Anyway, I am an FR fan, but I have found magic in MR and am quite comfortable with it now. The 2 problems I used to have (non-existant turn in and uncontrollable fishtailing) no longer trouble me.
In fact, the best time around that track that I put in was a 1:30 in a GT40 (on S3s). The Spirra was a dream, the Stratos is right up there at 1:32, and I know a modded Ford GT will put in amazing times. As would 2 of my favorites - the XJ220 and Cien.
The Stratos has a bit more weight, and I think a bit less power (can't remember exactly right at the moment). It put up better times.
I love how the Elise looks. Especially in metallic purple with black rims (with a silver lip), but it is just not living up to the hype.
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oh, a modified JGTC one... and what JGTC, DTM, or ALMS car can't, when modified?Master_YodaYep!
My Skyline beat a field of LMP's
at first I thought Skylines werent rated great, but I guess the F&F logic carries through.
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Kooky
I tend not to mess around with race car settings too much (aside from turning aids off)...I just slapped a stage 4 turbo on my Xanavi GT-R and kept everything stock. I would've switched from R3's to R2's, but I had no money at the time
The only problem with leaving it stock [gearing] is that it'll top out quick on long straights (didn't hurt me too bad on Fuji 2005, but any longer than that will need adjustments)...I don't recall the RX-8 being very unfriendly to me, actually. Haven't driven one in a while, though...
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- gtp_iLex
sidewinderlNO MORE K CARS (and a lower percentage of FF cars)
Objection, your honor!
This is something that I've read before and I can't agree.
Part of the GT fanbase likes those cars and the races you can race with them. As I've said before, those cars add depth to the game. I loved driving the silly Midget around the driving park, but I also love driving a Beamer on the 'Ring or an LMP car on Suzuka. The fact that all this is possible and is simulated (rather) well makes the game interesting to me and to a lot of people.
And there are at least ENOUGH skylines to keep most of the fanboys happy. Imho it would be nicer to have a broader range of cars (new brands?) than more Skylines.
throttlehappy
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GotTorqueHmm. I'll have to try to pick up another C4 Grand Sport to have a stock one to mess with, because that shouldn't be. The 1984 Corvette was a phenomenal handler for it's time, and still good today. It was able to pull a full G on stock tires. Stock 1984 road tires. The '85 was toned down a bit due to complaints from the old men buying it (unfortunately), but not enough to call it "hopeless".
I was surprised at how the ZR-1 seems to have no grip at all, even on S3s. Very disappointing. Seems the Viper and Ford GT got most of the attention for modeling accuracy.
hopeless, thats laughable isnt it
some people really hate muscle dont they,
jelousy i guess
id call the majority 4wd's hopeless, unless you want to slam into a wall that is
take the rs6 for example, nice car but the handling
and you think muscle cars understeer
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iLex
Agree. That Copen is fun. That Cappuchino is fun. The M5 is fun. The Pescarolo is fun. Without those small cars, I wouldn't have gotten the game. First time I noticed it at a store was when my brother told me "hey look - a game with a Fiat 500!" (We're both fans of it). I looked, saw all those little cars, the Peugeots, the Fiats, and decided to buy it the next day. Although, I was a little disappointed when I saw the amounts of Skylines and RX-7/MX-5s, compared to a maximum of 6 or 7 cars per non-japanese manufacturer. I'd buy the PS3 just for GT5, and I'll love GT5 even more if they'll include those lovely old Citroens, Peugoets, and basically - more coverage of the brands. I mean, is there a point to having about 10 different Supras, Skylines and some more, all from the JGTC, when just one of each, with different "colors" (the paintjobs of the different JGTC cars) would be enough? I mean, I'm no fan of it and I don't know how those cars differ in real life, but the engine values at the dealership seem pretty much the same.
Gingiba
Gran Turismo : The Real Skyline Simulator.
There are too many Skylines in comparison to other things. But... better to have Skylines than Daihatsu Midgets and trucks. This is a racing game. The idea of racing is to go fast around a track. Those tiny econo-boxes aren't made for that.
But, if Kaz wants a vehicle Encyclopedia, that's fine too. The problem is that we are missing some key vehicles. It would be, quite literally, a pallete swap to have the 98-02 Formula and/or Trans Am, as we already have the camaro counterpart. They are the same chassis, drive train, and suspension. The only differences are cosmetic inside and out. (from a practical stand point. Technically the WS6 and SS differ slightly, but not enough to matter for a game of this level) The aero is slightly different, but again, it could be fudged, and probably isn't modeled closely enough to really matter anyway.
We have 14 million skylines, trucks, vans, 50hp sloths, but can't have a simple pallete swap for the better F-Body?
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iLex
I didn't say no K cars, I just said no more K cars...there are enough as it is.
Actually, I'm a Skyline fanatic and there's just enough there to keep me content, but not really satisfied, because just as there needs to be a broader range of cars overall, there can also be a broader range of Skylines. Like these 3, for example (2 of them were even used in GT2...so why aren't they in 4? There are quite a few cars that should be carried over from GT2...):
The first is the "Unlimited" V12 (I mistakenly called it V16 earlier...forgot which it was when I first posted)...it's a quad-turbo 1000+hp V12 (all-wheel drive/steering intact).
- 7,719
No. I say, MORE K Cars, MORE Hatches. Skylines, maybe 10 new ones, and that's enough. And the JGTC Cars, as I said before, can be reduced to 3 cars per model, with different paintjobs. You're a Skyline fanatic, and the amound of Skylines is just enough to keep you content, but me, a Peugeot-Citroen fanatic, I'm far from content. I mean, 3 205Rally, three 206, one crappy 307 (not even with the bigger engine) and one sabotaged LMP - that's not enough. Citroen has even less. I'm missing all their greatest models - the Cit SM, the Peugeot 404, etc. However, if those 50 Skylines aren't enough (and they're not the only Nissans, the Silvia gets a 20 versions too), then I don't know what to do. But, we're no longer on-topic.
Scaff
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throttlehappyid call the majority 4wd's hopeless, unless you want to slam into a wall that is
take the rs6 for example, nice car but the handling
and you think muscle cars understeer
In regard to the double post, back on page five you posted at 6.30 and then 6.35 (GMT), the two posts were straight after each other.
Double (or worse multipule posts) make the threads a mess and potentially confusing, so we ask members not to do it, and provide the edit button as a much neater and effective tool.
You comments on the Elise are well taken, but I have seen the car driven in a quite devistating manner in the right hands.
As far as 4wd cars go, the vast majority of them will bias towards understeer, most do in real life.
The Audi's are a perfect example, the cars almost all have a major front wieght bias, with the engines mounted over and forward of the front wheel line. The RS6 is a car that is reknowned for its undeersteer bias on the limit.
Regards
Scaff
Scaff, I'm assuming the double post comment was to me, not ThrottleHappy, right?
The reason I was surprised is that that wasn't a double post. Typically a double post is 2 identical posts. Usually a technical hiccup. I made 2 separate posts of separate content. The second was a response to somebody, which also had nothing to do with what else I as talking about.
Fearing that was the case, I actually didn't reply to ThrottleHappy's comment to me, as I had wanted to, simply because nobody else was posting to this thread. :/
At any rate, you're right that different people will get different results out of a vehicle. But.... when I have other light MRs with similar wheelbases, more weight, and similar P:W that are significantly faster (and much older).... it makes me look more at the vehicle than me. lol Oh, speaking of which, I had run a stock Ford GT and forgot all about it. It clocked a 1:32, just tenths behind the Stratos, but about 2 seconds ahead of that super powered and generally enhanced Elise.
The problem, I think, at least for those 2, anyway, is area under the curve. The Ford GT "Got Torque"
. Turbos are so peaky that they generally are slower. (not always though)
The reason I was surprised is that that wasn't a double post. Typically a double post is 2 identical posts. Usually a technical hiccup. I made 2 separate posts of separate content. The second was a response to somebody, which also had nothing to do with what else I as talking about.
Fearing that was the case, I actually didn't reply to ThrottleHappy's comment to me, as I had wanted to, simply because nobody else was posting to this thread. :/
At any rate, you're right that different people will get different results out of a vehicle. But.... when I have other light MRs with similar wheelbases, more weight, and similar P:W that are significantly faster (and much older).... it makes me look more at the vehicle than me. lol Oh, speaking of which, I had run a stock Ford GT and forgot all about it. It clocked a 1:32, just tenths behind the Stratos, but about 2 seconds ahead of that super powered and generally enhanced Elise.
The problem, I think, at least for those 2, anyway, is area under the curve. The Ford GT "Got Torque"
. Turbos are so peaky that they generally are slower. (not always though)
Scaff
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GotTorque
I fully understand the reasons you have given, but here at GT Planet a double post is not just two identical posts, but rather anytime a member posts twice in a row.
The point is not that they are seperate posts, with seperate content, but that the edit button could have been used to make both points in a single post.
An example of why we do not allow this here was demonstrated by another member a few days ago, they made 12 post in a row in one thread and 8 posts in a row in another thread. These all contained seperate content, but the threads in question were turned into a serious mess.
As such we do not allow even double posts, as it set a precident that as a site we do not wish to be set.
I don't want to get heavy on this subject, but it is not up for discussion or interpretation, GT Planet quite simple does not allow posting in this way.
Thanks
Scaff
Yeah. "Special Midnight Purple" edition? Please
Eh, I'm 50/50 here. However, I think the JGTC selection is just fine, and there just needs to be more variations of LMP cars as well as Maistercraft Touring Cars. The set number should be 2-4 pending on the model to avoid overloading like they did with the Skyline.
Alright, I'll try it. Thanks!
