The new AI - your thoughts

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The AI is better my best position on Suzuka was 3th place with SRT Viper 13, I will try again tonight. They are more aggressive and make mistakes.
 
I just loaded up Gt6 there and the first two were pretty normal. Then I got to Suzuka and the new line for the harpin is now brake late and, right at the edge of the track, turn. I actually saw two cars literally parked like one of those café lobbies with people relaxing at the side of the road!

Do I like it? No. Is it better than the previous AI? Yes.

The reason for this is simply because I was not racing them before. I was simply trying to get to the chequered flag before this block got there, who had started 20 seconds ahead of me. Now, I feel the every overtake is a challenge (bar the divers that blew gravel into the air) and the cars are as fast as me, and don't wait two seconds until accelerating out of a corner. The previous AI used to be like an Audi R18 overtaking Porsche 911s, now they're going side by side into a corner.

About the whole different difficulty levels, of which I'm in favour with, GT have their own way of dealing with the skillset of the player. We've noticed before how the lead driver slows down during the race to allow drivers to catch up. This process varies with each player. A player that is in a more advanced position will mean that the lead driver will increase it's pace. This may be a clever idea, but it's way too artificial for me. It's like as if GT is forgetting that there are two parts to racing: attacking and defending. All we do is chase this block, but never do we look in our mirrors to see if there is someone attacking us.
 
GRID had a pretty nice AI. They would spin out in front of you while locking their brakes up at 150MPH making you more alert throught the race.
Speaking of Grid, a video was posted on the Grid Autosport forum and when I first watched it I thought, "finally, someone that is fast, consistent and knows how to use the whole track and the racing line". Then I noticed at the bottom of the screen was the AI. The pilot ran what looks like a technically perfect first lap and had a one second lead on the AI after starting on the pole!! Now that's AI!!
 
I'm finding the AI mellow. I still believe it's programmed to mirror your driving. The more aggressive you drive, the more aggressive an erratic they become. I can't think of a single instance in any of the new Seasonals where the AI spun off the track. They all drive pretty smoothly with the occasional bump or paint trade.

You obviously haven't ran the Suzuka race then. In 3 of the 4 races I ran there, I was able to pick off up to 4 spots in each race due to cars running off/spinning off the track. At one point, I almost ran into a car because it was just sitting sideways in a corner. The AI absolutely suck....I think they seriously need to be drug tested. :lol: Oh, I also need to mention the two ramming penalties I got for them ramming into me because of their very, very late braking tendencies. The AI's driving habits is horrible from what I've seen thus far....completely unacceptable.
 
I really can't believe you are complaining about more realistic AI. The major flaw in most AI and one of the hardest things to implement are AI mistakes. Its crazy, you call for better AI, they give you AI that screws up just like people online do yet you do nothing but trash it for the very thing that improves it.

It is very easy to code AI that just follow the racing line without mistakes, I coded my own in a few hours (you just put lots of markers on the track and tell the car to head to the next one.. simple). This is a good step forward for PD.

Stupid AI is not better AI.

Better AI is fast AI, AI that reacts properly to their surroundings and follow basic racing etiquette - not idiots who miss braking markers and don't begin turning into a corner until they're well into the sand trap.

Your argument is nonsensical.

I'm finding the AI mellow. I still believe it's programmed to mirror your driving. The more aggressive you drive, the more aggressive an erratic they become. I can't think of a single instance in any of the new Seasonals where the AI spun off the track. They all drive pretty smoothly with the occasional bump or paint trade.

This makes no sense, I drive smoothly and will do everything in my power to drive clean even with the AI, so by rights they should be courteous to me and give up the racing line etc.

But they don't, because they're not that intelligent.

Sure they don't stick to rails any more but I wouldn't call wildly swerving across the road and braking seemingly at random around the long sweeper corner on Suzuka "Better"
 
I enjoy the new A.I. I'd like to play the whole game's A-spec again with this A.I. applied. They still aren't "fast", but that's never been my issue. I understand people have to win these races. My issue has always been how the A.I. acts once you're (the player) near them. The things I hated the most are all gone in the Suzuka race. They no longer slow down way before the corner. They still don't drive in as deep as I do, but at least they LOOK like they're trying now. More importantly they don't slam on their brakes and pull to the side just because I'm riding their ass into the corner, or even on the straights. Nor do they slow down when they're on the side of you either.

All in all the A.I. is just trying harder in general and I really like it, my only criticism of it is their skill can't quite keep up with their newfound ambition. They aren't braking good enough to match how deep they run into the corners and they push right off the track frequently. But as a way to win races in a scripted way, I much prefer the A.I. crashing or going off track to them just pulling over to clearly let me win.

If anyone from PD is listening, as a fan I'd LOVE this new version of the A.I. applied to the main game's A-spec if it's at all possible. I'm loving GT6's recent turn-around. Interesting content being added regularly, the sound of the cars is noticably improved, and here we have an interesting new A.I. model. Keep it coming Kaz & Co.
 
I enjoyed the "danger" of racing the AI - You couldn't just roll up to the back of them and pass them the same way you pass normally - Often the AI would be off the racing line or even creep over onto your chosen line.

AI mistakes - These are Big powerful cars on semi slicks - maybe the driver had a brain fart. I have to hold my hands up and say of the 6 races I've run, I've left track twice myself - You should go over and read the GTPlanet : AI Driver's Forum - They hate me as a Human driver.

I never saw a race where all of the AI drivers fell of the track - I've certainly not been driving along, passing every AI car as it reversed out of a tyre barrier or dug itself into a sand trap. Two or three Maldonado/Villeneuve moments of overcooked corners I can live with that. Nice to think the AI are running close to their ragged edge - And sometimes a mistake from the AI is when it is a passing attempt - Didn't that Senna chap have trouble making clean passes at Suzuka ...

- Just what sort of AI would GTPlanet users like to have?
Having a few loose cannons from the Pastor and Gilles show is fine by me. - Maybe some Pit Lane skills by DC and Gerhard - or back marker overtaking master class from Nelson and Mark.
Fast but fallible.

I quite like the induced peril from the AI.
 
This new AI is quite terrible, running completely off the track in corners is hardly "good" AI. But I'd gladly take this level of stupidity over the brain dead cars just slowly sticking to the racing line. I'd much rather have aggressive AI than an AI that doesn't even seem like it's attempting to race. I am very glad it would seem PD is at least trying SOMETHING rather than just continue doing the same old thing with the same old AI routines from years ago.

Another reason I'd prefer this AI is at least now there is some sort of variation in the races. Were as before the AI would strictly stick to the racing line and make an incredibly boring 'race', now there is at least some variation. In one race at Suzuka I had the AI spin out into the sand on a corner, and during another race I didn't encounter the spin off. At least there is some variation with the races now. I hope PD expands on this and improves it. I don't ever want to go back to the boring AI that doesn't even recognize you on the track or even attempts to pretend it's in a 'race'. I def give PD props. Keep improving it, Please! 👍
 
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I like the fact that lap 5 means something now. Before this I would have built up such a lead that putting it in the sand only delayed my first place. Now it means third or worse if I get sloppy in the late laps. Getting rammed sucks, but hey I do it too. All's fair in love and racing.
 
Ryk
- Just what sort of AI would GTPlanet users like to have?
Having a few loose cannons from the Pastor and Gilles show is fine by me. - Maybe some Pit Lane skills by DC and Gerhard - or back marker overtaking master class from Nelson and Mark.
Fast but fallible.

I quite like the induced peril from the AI.

I'd like AI that can actually put up a fight if the human driver wasn't started all the way at the back of the grid with the leader almost halfway around the course by the time you start, how about that?

The ability to be able to drive at least as fast as my niece can? The ability to drive with some semblance of intelligence? Not smashing into my car under braking when they utterly ignore the braking mark? causing me to get penalties because they drive like a drivers ed student that has flunked 7 years in a row?

Just little things
 
I'd like AI that can actually put up a fight if the human driver wasn't started all the way at the back of the grid with the leader almost halfway around the course by the time you start, how about that?

The ability to be able to drive at least as fast as my niece can? The ability to drive with some semblance of intelligence? Not smashing into my car under braking when they utterly ignore the braking mark? causing me to get penalties because they drive like a drivers ed student that has flunked 7 years in a row?

Just little things

Qualifying fixes that back of the grid crap. Bring back qualifying.
 
The thing is even if the speed of the AI wasn't improved at all if you have cars that all start on the same grid you could actually have a feeling of an actual RACE by limiting the car you use. Sure you can do that in these catch the rabbit events but it doesn't create racing, it just changes the frequency at which you catch the other rabbits, and if you catch the rabbit at all.

For me one of the biggest issues with these current events is the fact that when you lose you never have that "Yeah we started on an equal footing, the AI were just better than me, they beat me fair and square over x laps, good race" feeling. You just get the feeling "I lost because the rabbit started too far ahead and I couldn't catch them up in the alloted time". It's a crappy feeling and why I hate those events.
 
I think half of the reason for the chase down, spread out grid is to reduce the number of cars in close proximity... SO many polygons - textures , multiple sounds all in view will make the Game Engine chug - Dropping the frame rate down to flip book speed.

The easy solution is to make sure the cars are not all clustered together - when do you get a big chunk of cars... at the start of a race. - The compromise in GT has been People want super flash Premium cars with cup holders and very high end modelled cars.

PD I guess are running very close to the limit of the PS3 - if cars do get too close (To the players car) then the models step up a level of quality (Larger more detailed texture maps, car frames made up of many more polygons -) so much more work for the PS3 - If it gets over loaded then the frame rate tends to get hit - and in the long history of driving games, players hate any hit to the frame rate.

They (Players) also hate, less detailed cars.

If PD did have more races with standing grid starts, I would guess the grids would be smaller or else the field would be hard coded to quickly spread apart just to prevent any drastic drop off in frame rate. (Like in the S Event's at Willow Spring : Big Willow and Circuit Ascari )

Maybe if the cars in the race were "low spec quality" you could have a nice fat 15 car grid and start on the grid and pile into turn 1... But unfortunately Human players would abuse this and just bundle down the inside line hitting anything to let them make that apex (Safe in the knowledge they will take zero damage and gain a handful of places)

---

Whatever - The AI shows promise - if we as players had to factor in AI driver personality traits as we cruised up from behind before we made a pass it would be... different? (This guy always brakes early, This guy will drift over onto me - so I have to pass on the inside to be safe. This guy takes an early apex line into a corner like Jean Alesi - I just need to play it cool and get him on the exit... and suchlike.)

-(Sorry for that - Having trouble thinking in English at the moment.)
 
Not if the AI was competent. Which it isn't. Hence the point of the argument.

You aren't thinking your argument through, clearly. Do you know what kind of A.I. it would take to be able to pass us human players starting on the pole? That would take super-hardcore A.I. that is not only going to be fast, but also incredibly aggressive A.I. (similar to this new A.I. in the way that...) that if you're in the prefered line and are slower than them, they're just going to run right up your rear end and dump players in every turn. It would be even better (or worse depending on viewpoint) than the kind of A.I. we see in Project CARS beta.

My point is......do you play online? MOST people aren't all that great at racing. The majority of the 10 or so million GT fans are casual racers. These people......including your niece you seem to like using as an example so often......need to be able to beat these games damn near 100%. Granted, they can't expect to do the hardcore stuff like X1 challenges, but everyone who buys GT needs to be able to clear A-Spec, period. You think they're going to be able to clear the game against hardcore A.I.? NO WAY!! Would you or I like A.I. like that? Sure we would, but millions of people could not handle that kind of A.I. and if they were forced to go against PCars-esque AI in GT, they'd never buy the series again out of frustration.

Now, do I think hardcore A.I. like that should be an option in GT for people who want it?.......hellz yeah I do. But since it's not and PD is choosing to cater to the middle of the road common denominator gamer, which I understand, I'm MUCH happier racing against this new A.I. which is still eazy-peazy, but is at least interesting and reactionary, unlike the old A.I. which just did same exact boring, stupid and slow crap, every time, no matter what the circumstances.

Give me just stupid A.I. over boring, stupid AND slow A.I. any day of the week. Especially in GT where the A.I. hasn't done anything new in damn near 15 years. A.I. bumping me and over-driving corners.......hell.....doing ANYTHING different.....is a real refresher imo.
 
All these new seasonal events were fun the first race which was held at Rome I used the Protomotors Spirra, I managed to get pass everyone easily, the car in 1st place was a RUF RGT I passed it and noticed it kept a consistent pace throughout the race behind me, finished 2 seconds behind me, considering it was a beginner class event I was expecting to make a massive gap.

The second race was held at big willow and I used the Zonda C12, managed to pass everyone, up ahead was a 599 and the mighty LFA, the LFA managed to leave the 599 and catch me but because the AI ain't particularly good at big willow I managed to get away.

Suzuka the star of the show, I used the Tommy Kaira ZZII wasn't as easy to get past all the cars, because there was hypercars ahead, the car up ahead was the rapid Pagani Haurya (forgive me I can't spell it lol) at one point I was battling an Enzo and noticed the Pagani was miles away I thought I wernt going to win, but then noticed it spun off in a corner (forgive me I don't know the name of corners at Suzuka) got past it then past the enzo then went on to win the race, after that I checked the replay to see how many mistakes were made by AI, pretty much all cars on track either went wide, braked late, or spun off, definitely a change to the AI more aggressive and more fun lets hope more events like this come.
 
They are faster n more Wild too :) and the AI look like the 1 in R: Racing evolution


I'm curious what's so good about the AI in that video? Exactly what I was thinking while watching that video was that it looks exactly like the new GT6 AI, except they aren't driving off the track........that was until the car that was in first.......drove off the track. So it really looks exactly the same as this new AI in GT, so what's your point? Or did I mis-read your post and that IS your point?
 
You aren't thinking your argument through, clearly. Do you know what kind of A.I. it would take to be able to pass us human players starting on the pole? That would take super-hardcore A.I. that is not only going to be fast, but also incredibly aggressive A.I. (similar to this new A.I. in the way that...) that if you're in the prefered line and are slower than them, they're just going to run right up your rear end and dump players in every turn. It would be even better (or worse depending on viewpoint) than the kind of A.I. we see in Project CARS beta.

My point is......do you play online? MOST people aren't all that great at racing. The majority of the 10 or so million GT fans are casual racers. These people......including your niece you seem to like using as an example so often......need to be able to beat these games damn near 100%. Granted, they can't expect to do the hardcore stuff like X1 challenges, but everyone who buys GT needs to be able to clear A-Spec, period. You think they're going to be able to clear the game against hardcore A.I.? NO WAY!! Would you or I like A.I. like that? Sure we would, but millions of people could not handle that kind of A.I. and if they were forced to go against PCars-esque AI in GT, they'd never buy the series again out of frustration.

Now, do I think hardcore A.I. like that should be an option in GT for people who want it?.......hellz yeah I do. But since it's not and PD is choosing to cater to the middle of the road common denominator gamer, which I understand, I'm MUCH happier racing against this new A.I. which is still eazy-peazy, but is at least interesting and reactionary, unlike the old A.I. which just did same exact boring, stupid and slow crap, every time, no matter what the circumstances.

Give me just stupid A.I. over boring, stupid AND slow A.I. any day of the week. Especially in GT where the A.I. hasn't done anything new in damn near 15 years. A.I. bumping me and over-driving corners.......hell.....doing ANYTHING different.....is a real refresher imo.


For the record when I said Niece I meant cousin, I failed at England. I've also only used her in two examples when talking about Gran Turismo in my time on this site so I'm not exactly sure where you've seen me use her as an example "So often" ?? She's interested in driving games despite being terrible at them, hence why I use her as a great example.

I don't see your point, if everyone started at the grid or were started off closer together - the player can control the difficulty level much more satisfyingly - for instance, if I were passing everyone making it trivial; I can simply use a slower car to alter the difficulty.

Does this work with the current set up? sure, absolutely it does - however it isn't satisfying to chase after a foe I cannot see. That's where the comparison of running a time attack with moving barriers comes in because that's ALL YOU'RE DOING.

You're chasing numbers in the hope that later in the race you'll catch up to the guy who started off halfway around the course.

Do I play online? No, not really. Because in my experience people online are immature children who will ram you off the track because you're faster than them. Given most of my mates have ditched GT6 because of all the wasted potential I don't have anyone that I really want to be racing with any more and I have no desire to tolerate the endless wave of immature Senna wannabe's "Going for a gap that exists" when it doesn't in order to find the odd respectful racer.

Could I move to more serious sims? Sure I could, but I don't like driving race cars - I enjoy driving street cars because their characteristics shine through so much more than their stripped down juiced up race car versions.

Guess which cars are featured in the high end sims? Race cars - because I'm in the minority and GT/Forza caters best to the kind of racing I enjoy.

But more to the point, EVEN IF I were super into online racing - I STILL have to tolerate the single player to earn any reasonable amount of cash, while seasonals have made this more tolerable as I can simply run a time attack to earn money it's hardly the best solution in my opinion.

PD can cater to the "Common denominator gamer" and still cater to people who enjoy real racing by using grid starts and letting more serious players handicap themselves to compensate for the AIs skill level.

While I do find the new AI more "Engaging" in that I have to be aware of them now, that doesn't make it the right choice. You can have AI that is engaging without them driving dangerously to the point they would be black flagged on any real racing circuit.
 
I'm curious what's so good about the AI in that video? Exactly what I was thinking while watching that video was that it looks exactly like the new GT6 AI, except they aren't driving off the track........that was until the car that was in first.......drove off the track. So it really looks exactly the same as this new AI in GT, so what's your point? Or did I mis-read your post and that IS your point?
I wanted to show that mabey GT6 AI in the seasonal event react to pressure on.
 
You aren't thinking your argument through, clearly. Do you know what kind of A.I. it would take to be able to pass us human players starting on the pole? That would take super-hardcore A.I. that is not only going to be fast, but also incredibly aggressive A.I. (similar to this new A.I. in the way that...) that if you're in the prefered line and are slower than them, they're just going to run right up your rear end and dump players in every turn.

Not really.

Even if the player starts on pole, it's not hard for the AI to get near perfect standing starts consistently. They're a computer working from a known situation, it's the ideal situation for them. Thus, the AI should smoke the player off the start most of the time, or at least keep up.

And after that...there's no particular reason why fast AI needs to be aggressive as well. What it does need is quick decision making. Slow decision making is often confused for aggression, as it results in missed braking points, missed turn ins and such that result in contact.

There are plenty of examples of games with quick AI that is also relatively respectful of racing rules. At least more respectful than your average racing hobbyist can be. It's not super-hardcore, it's just a thing. GT simply refuses to either spend the time or processing power to make it happen. It's not that it can't, it's that they won't.
 
I'm not gonna bother quoting that, I only got a couple things to reply to anyway.

About your reason for not racing online, fo MOST racing games, you're right. There are tons of D-bags that will just boot you off the track for no other reason than 9th place. But people who play a variety of racing games online could tell you GT online isn't really like that. There areliterally a fraction of those kind of players of GT compared to any other racer I've played, and that is for one good reason which is the reason I love GT online more than any other racer........no ranking system. People are wreckers for rank, and they do it in groups, padding each other's ranks and taking out others not in their "team". There's none of that in GT5/6. If you get dumped in GT, it's usually just due to an inexperienced racer or carelessness, and you usually at least get an apology.

And what about the new AI behavior would warrant black flags? You don't get black flagged for over-driving a corner and going into the traps. It's the end of your race result usually, but no black flag. And neither would the little taps I've gotten in the rear in a corner they actually drive into trying to keep up with me. It takes a blatant dump to draw a black flag. Rubbin's Racin' and if suddenly the A.I. in GT is pushing me in corners and battling me door-to-door.......yeah!!!!........give me more of that please!!!! I'm not calling for any black flags on my radio, that's for sure. I was calling for black flags on the old AI because they were brake-checking me every time I get near them, and not keeping up track minimum speed.
 
I'm not gonna bother quoting that, I only got a couple things to reply to anyway.

About your reason for not racing online, fo MOST racing games, you're right. There are tons of D-bags that will just boot you off the track for no other reason than 9th place. But people who play a variety of racing games online could tell you GT online isn't really like that. There areliterally a fraction of those kind of players of GT compared to any other racer I've played, and that is for one good reason which is the reason I love GT online more than any other racer........no ranking system. People are wreckers for rank, and they do it in groups, padding each other's ranks and taking out others not in their "team". There's none of that in GT5/6. If you get dumped in GT, it's usually just due to an inexperienced racer or carelessness, and you usually at least get an apology.

I've experienced nothing but drivers like what I described bar the very rare case - I have no tolerance for drivers like that and will often quit and go and do something else.

I've never been apologised to, ever. I get shunted off the road simply for having the cheek to be faster than some kid, I don't see how that makes playing GT online more desirable than anything else. Sure the lack of championships and ingame incentive for winning helps people not be asshats but the fact remains that even if you're at the back of the pack people with no hope of winning will simply go out of their way to end your race. I've had more respectful races in Grand Theft Auto Online than I have in GT6 online - so I'm sure you can see why I feel the way I do.

And what about the new AI behavior would warrant black flags? You don't get black flagged for over-driving a corner and going into the traps. It's the end of your race result usually, but no black flag. And neither would the little taps I've gotten in the rear in a corner they actually drive into trying to keep up with me. It takes a blatant dump to draw a black flag. Rubbin's Racin' and if suddenly the A.I. in GT is pushing me in corners and battling me door-to-door.......yeah!!!!........give me more of that please!!!! I'm not calling for any black flags on my radio, that's for sure. I was calling for black flags on the old AI because they were brake-checking me every time I get near them, and not keeping up track minimum speed.

Intentionally ramming other drivers is rather frowned upon, I don't recall saying anything about them going off the track resulting in a black flag - I am referring to them swerving into other drivers, into their racing line and smashing into them under braking when not even attempting to hit the brakes.

Not to mention all the times they've tried the PIT maneuver on me as they try to swerve into their racing line despite me clearly being next to them when I had right of way at corner entry.
 
I'd like AI that can actually put up a fight if the human driver wasn't started all the way at the back of the grid with the leader almost halfway around the course by the time you start, how about that?

The ability to be able to drive at least as fast as my niece can? The ability to drive with some semblance of intelligence? Not smashing into my car under braking when they utterly ignore the braking mark? causing me to get penalties because they drive like a drivers ed student that has flunked 7 years in a row?

Just little things

How much RAM does your niece have?
 
Not really.


Even if the player starts on pole, it's not hard for the AI to get near perfect standing starts consistently. They're a computer working from a known situation, it's the ideal situation for them. Thus, the AI should smoke the player off the start most of the time, or at least keep up.

And after that...there's no particular reason why fast AI needs to be aggressive as well. What it does need is quick decision making. Slow decision making is often confused for aggression, as it results in missed braking points, missed turn ins and such that result in contact.

There are plenty of examples of games with quick AI that is also relatively respectful of racing rules. At least more respectful than your average racing hobbyist can be. It's not super-hardcore, it's just a thing. GT simply refuses to either spend the time or processing power to make it happen. It's not that it can't, it's that they won't.


I've seen plenty of games with AI that can get off the line, and that would be the ONLY time anything but a hardcore AI is going to pass a decent human racer... without an extremely tight rubber band anyway. Aside from PCars, I've never seen an AI that impresses me enough to convince me it's people. The first 2 Motorstorms were interesting AI but had a super-tight rubber band and were also completely homicidal maniacs on the harder races.

Like I said, the PCars beta has the best AI I've seen in a racing game. It's the first that's impressed me. It's bordering on real race car driver good. But I think that is FAR too hardcore for the vast majority including alot of the people always demanding harder AI. In fact I WANT tough AI and I don;t think I could handle it at tight, technical tracks. Luckily, that level of AI is just an option in PCars from what I hear and the default AI won't be that hardcore. But if people were forced to play against that AI, they'll drop that game based on frustration just as fast as they picked it up based on it's amazing visuals and their hope for a "GT Killer".
 
This might be a stupid question, but does changing the aggressiveness of the AI like you would for A-spec effect these seasonal events? and has anyone tried doing them on a different setting than they normally use?
 
This might be a stupid question, but does changing the aggressiveness of the AI like you would for A-spec effect these seasonal events? and has anyone tried doing them on a different setting than they normally use?

If I'm not mistaken that option is only for Arcade races? I don't believe it extends to A-spec and seasonals.
 
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