The new AI - your thoughts

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3 races and 3 levels of difficulty.

Perhaps I should put that another way.

There's still only a single level of difficulty PER RACE. If I'm a beginner and I want to race Suzuka, I'm out of luck.

They've implicitly acknowledged that there needs to be some concession in the AI for the skill level of the player, and then made sure that at best only one of three races will actually be suitable for any given player. Arguably none of the races, because the AI is still awful.

It's a step forward in the sense that it means that they clearly recognise that there's a need for difficulty levels. It's 2014 and most developers figured that out about twenty years ago, but Polyphony seem to be a bit slow sometimes. We take what we can get.

Maybe it'll only take them another year or two to figure out that they need to have all three difficulty levels available on the SAME race. Like every other game. Having separate races for each level of player is a complete waste of good content.
 
@Imari : Ok I see. But everybody want harder race and when we get them it's too hard.
Ofc 3 difficulty levels in career is nice, but we don't have that, so I think the seasonal are nice and it's a step in the right direction. You consider that a waste, I think not.
Imagine a very hard race event : I think that would be a real waste of time if the first "noob" can win it just by turning the difficulty to begginer. 3 different races and 3 differents levels are better (for the seasonials events)
 
I did the Willow Springs 550pp seasonal event with about 450pp max tuned Daihatsu Sirion. I was very scared to drive in the front, because on every straight a guy in Lamborghini Gallardo accelerated in my rear bumper. Had to retry the event few times too because he hit my back so hard that i got knocked off the track. The supercars wanted to revenge their loss in corners on the straights.
 
If I'm a beginner and I want to race Suzuka, I'm out of luck.

No, you're not out of luck but you need to practice more. I've never understood why every race must be winnable for everyone, there's no FPS shooter or a platform adventure game you can complete without dying on the first try no matter which difficulty level is selected. In those cases you make mistakes and learn from them and eventually complete the levels, and nobody complains as it's perfectly acceptable, that's simply how it goes. But as soon as there's a properly hard race in GT it causes a great outcry because beginners can't win - what happened to practising and getting better? Because after doing those two every race is winnable, it just takes some work and skill.
 
No, you're not out of luck but you need to practice more. I've never understood why every race must be winnable for everyone, there's no FPS shooter or a platform adventure game you can complete without dying on the first try no matter which difficulty level is selected. In those cases you make mistakes and learn from them and eventually complete the levels, and nobody complains as it's perfectly acceptable, that's simply how it goes. But as soon as there's a properly hard race in GT it causes a great outcry because beginners can't win - what happened to practising and getting better? Because after doing those two every race is winnable, it just takes some work and skill.

Not at all. I didn't say every race should be winnable to everyone, and I don't believe that should be the case.

By your logic something like Uncharted doesn't need difficulty settings, it should just be on Super OMG Hard mode from the beginning. Because it's completeable like that, and people who are finding it tough just need to practise more.

Which I could almost agree with, except that time is not infinite.

If a player only has say, 20 hours a week to play GT6, then they need to be able to accomplish something reasonable within that time. Otherwise they'll just get annoyed and give up, because it's no fun banging your head against a brick wall.

For a real life example, probably almost anyone could learn to drive an LMP car. But you wouldn't just drop grandma in and say "best of luck, little old lady!" Because it'd be a horrible experience, and she may not have enough time before she carks it to get around to actually enjoying herself. You'd start her in something that was slightly challenging, and then work her up. If she never wants to drive an LMP, and just wants to tootle around in supercars then best of luck to her, she's found her level and she's enjoying herself.

It's not that you should have to be able to complete it on the first try. Some people enjoy just smashing content, and that's their choice, but I think most people want a slight to moderate challenge. Something that's achieveable in the time you have available to devote to it, but still when you accomplish it you can feel like you really did something a bit special. That's what most people tend to find fun, because human psychology is mostly set up that way.

The thing is, what equates to a slight to moderate challenge differs from person to person. What might be a slight to moderate challenge to me is probably disgustingly easy to somebody like Gregor Huttu, or unbelievably difficult to my car loving 8 year old nephew.

That's why every race needs a difficulty level for it. If there needs to be absolute challenges, then make them license tests, or missions, or any of a number of other scenarios. What differentiates races from hotlapping is the other drivers and your interaction with them. If you're way ahead or way behind the other drivers, it might as well be a hot lap. And if it might as well be a hot lap, then the designer should either make it a hot lap or fix it so that it's not like that.

Ultimately, it's not about winning or losing. It's about enjoying the things that make racing a special experience. That's not possible unless the AI level is well matched to the player level.


@Imari : Ok I see. But everybody want harder race and when we get them it's too hard.

That's not what I said. I still find them trivially easy. I was making an example.
 
That's not what I said. I still find them trivially easy. I was making an example.
I didn't say you did, it's just the majority of player want harder challenge, but complain when they have some (Senna Challenge, Round 4 GTA, New Expert A-Spec...)
 
I didn't say you did, it's just the majority of player want harder challenge, but complain when they have some (Senna Challenge, Round 4 GTA, New Expert A-Spec...)

You've got it wrong. How it works is that the people that are dissatisfied are more vocal than the ones that are satisfied. This is fundamental to how customer service works.

Group A finds A Spec in general too easy. Group B finds A Spec just right. You'll hear lots of complaining from Group A, and not much of anything from Group B.

Group A finds the harder challenges pretty good. Group B finds them far too difficult. You won't hear Group A complaining, but you'll sure get an earful from Group B.

And it's not even that simple. There's not two groups, there's probably dozens of categories to fit people into. Can you tell at a glance which group a person fits into, and which parts of the game they're satisified with or not? I doubt it.

You're lumping everyone who has ever said anything negative about the game together. It's not the same people complaining about wanting harder challenges as it is complaining that the hard stuff is too hard. That would be insane.

(That said, I'm sure there's a few out there that did exactly that. You lot are nuts. You're the exception that proves that humans are wacko.)
 
Not at all. I didn't say every race should be winnable to everyone, and I don't believe that should be the case.

By your logic something like Uncharted doesn't need difficulty settings, it should just be on Super OMG Hard mode from the beginning. Because it's completeable like that, and people who are finding it tough just need to practise more.

Which I could almost agree with, except that time is not infinite.

If a player only has say, 20 hours a week to play GT6, then they need to be able to accomplish something reasonable within that time. Otherwise they'll just get annoyed and give up, because it's no fun banging your head against a brick wall.

For a real life example, probably almost anyone could learn to drive an LMP car. But you wouldn't just drop grandma in and say "best of luck, little old lady!" Because it'd be a horrible experience, and she may not have enough time before she carks it to get around to actually enjoying herself. You'd start her in something that was slightly challenging, and then work her up. If she never wants to drive an LMP, and just wants to tootle around in supercars then best of luck to her, she's found her level and she's enjoying herself.

It's not that you should have to be able to complete it on the first try. Some people enjoy just smashing content, and that's their choice, but I think most people want a slight to moderate challenge. Something that's achieveable in the time you have available to devote to it, but still when you accomplish it you can feel like you really did something a bit special. That's what most people tend to find fun, because human psychology is mostly set up that way.

The thing is, what equates to a slight to moderate challenge differs from person to person. What might be a slight to moderate challenge to me is probably disgustingly easy to somebody like Gregor Huttu, or unbelievably difficult to my car loving 8 year old nephew.

That's why every race needs a difficulty level for it. If there needs to be absolute challenges, then make them license tests, or missions, or any of a number of other scenarios. What differentiates races from hotlapping is the other drivers and your interaction with them. If you're way ahead or way behind the other drivers, it might as well be a hot lap. And if it might as well be a hot lap, then the designer should either make it a hot lap or fix it so that it's not like that.

Ultimately, it's not about winning or losing. It's about enjoying the things that make racing a special experience. That's not possible unless the AI level is well matched to the player level.




That's not what I said. I still find them trivially easy. I was making an example.

Grandma's don't have to be 'little or old'. There are Grandma's out there that would probably whoop you in a race and will probably not be afraid of anything.

Probably, maybe... PD should not have bothered. I mean, it's only one measly seasonal.
 
Grandma's don't have to be 'little or old'. There are Grandma's out there that would probably whoop you in a race and will probably not be afraid of anything.

I'm sure there are. Probably lots of them.

It doesn't stop you from understanding the point I was making though, does it? Substitute "grandma" for "someone not very good at driving" if you're still finding it difficult.
 
I'm sure there are. Probably lots of them.

It doesn't stop you from understanding the point I was making though, does it? Substitute "grandma" for "someone not very good at driving" if you're still finding it difficult.

The points in your post are unfathomable,
and I don't like typing long walls of text.
 
What do you mean only? Dude you have a problem, that's like 3 hours per day.

I didn't say I played that much. I was, again, making an example.

Most people would consider that quite a lot. But the sort of people that think that games should be as hard as possible and people should just practise more if they're finding it difficult spend a lot more time than that. That was the point I was addressing, and so I chose a number that might seem "small" to that sort of player.
 
I'm finding the AI mellow. I still believe it's programmed to mirror your driving. The more aggressive you drive, the more aggressive an erratic they become. I can't think of a single instance in any of the new Seasonals where the AI spun off the track. They all drive pretty smoothly with the occasional bump or paint trade.
 
If I may, some of you seem to be missing the forest for the trees. One-size-fits-all will never work for AI, other than for the small number of people who happen to be the correct size [speed]. Video games have difficulty settings for a reason, because 2 million people have a wide variety of skills. If you can't scale the difficulty, you'll have vast numbers of people that find things mind numbingly easy, or impossibly hard, or both.

Regardless of the above, I'm not sure anyone was calling for more aggressive AI in terms of collisions and ramming and such. AI not knowing where the brakes are and running into you hard in the rear is bad AI design no matter how fast they are. One car running off the track from a mistake is entertaining, multiple times in 5 laps is overdoing it.
 
The AI still sucks, especially at Suzuka.

I got hit hard in the back in the hairpin a few times, got taken out with a pit maneuver on the back straight, and on several occasions they did the usual "leave the inside wide open and turn into my car when I'm side-by-side with them" bs. Best part is that every time the AI hit me I got the penalty.
They're still totally unaware of other cars on the track, AI cars hitting each other and the examples above are clear proof of that.

Also, if one can enter a race with a 600PP limit, start in last place 25 seconds behind the leader, against a 620PP car up front, pass everybody and win in 5 laps, that's clear sign that the AI isn't very fast and needs improvement.
The whole catch-up race bs is simply a trick to give players a false sense of difficulty.
 
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I really can't believe you are complaining about more realistic AI. The major flaw in most AI and one of the hardest things to implement are AI mistakes. Its crazy, you call for better AI, they give you AI that screws up just like people online do yet you do nothing but trash it for the very thing that improves it.

It is very easy to code AI that just follow the racing line without mistakes, I coded my own in a few hours (you just put lots of markers on the track and tell the car to head to the next one.. simple). This is a good step forward for PD.
 
I don't think most people would agree that the major flaw with GT6's AI was that it didn't kamikaze themselves into walls for no reason, actually. GT4's AI made a lot more "mistakes" than GT5's or GT6's, but I would be truly shocked if anyone called GT4's "Slide off the end of Hunaudières every single lap" or "Literally can't navigate some courses if driving a FWD car" something along the lines of "more realistic."
 
Oh, yeah, lol, I actually saw almost every AI car run wide and off-track at the suzuka hairpin in that seasonal event. :lol:
 
These things are not related all other sims can have fast AI without being stupid.


They are in this event. The AI is clearly worse at driving, at least in most other events, it can keep the cars on the track. This is GT6, not a PC sim, they have different programming and resources, thus you cannot compare the situations as being the same.
 
No matter how stupidly (Literally) fast they are now, you still start at the back of the pack and that still sucks.

To be fair to them they do explicitly state that the goal of the challenge is to overtake as many cars as possible. This AI would be more fun than the usual AI to go up against in a normal race though.
 
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