Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[Filge90]

The thing is that in GT sport the physics are not very realistic and you don’t get penalised for going on the grass with two wheels like you would in real life. If I compare driving a lap around the Nordschleife in GT sport where I can do some ridiculous cutting corner and driving on the grass if I would do that on assetto Corsa I would spin out immediately. So my take on it is that because the physics in GT doesn’t penalize going on the grass as much as real life or assetto that they need to make the track limits more strict to stop people cutting corners that would result in a big crash in real life.

 

[Rinsky]

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I absolutely see nothing wrong with the lap that was posted of @zzz_pt as it was well within the track limits that have been set. Especially on a qualifying lap or even in a race to make up ground. However I do feel it would be unethical to pass someone in a race by going that deep into turn 4 especially if someone was trying to defend their line.
@zzz_pt did say he does not do turn 4 like that in a race so I really don't see anything wrong here.

 

[Mr P]

I suggest the reason turn 4 is the main focal point at that track is the entry line taken for the first off is deliberately targeting the wide exit line off across the road for a better exit speed down the hill.. there's actually 2 offs in that one maneuver entering and exiting turn 4 which actually gains heaps of time with constant throttle versus someone who stays on track having to lift etc.. all the other instances have a single offtrack possibility per turn and wont gain as much as turn 4 does..

To be fair I'm probably in the very small minority of players who think any incident where the car goes all 4 wheels over/outside the farthest edge of the rumbles is a sloppy lap that should be redded but that's just my opinion! and an entitlement we all have 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I absolutely see nothing wrong with the lap that was posted of @zzz_pt as it was well within the track limits that have been set. Especially on a qualifying lap or even in a race to make up ground. However I do feel it would be unethical to pass someone in a race by going that deep into turn 4 especially if someone was trying to defend their line.
@zzz_pt did say he does not do turn 4 like that in a race so I really don't see anything wrong here.

Why would the "ethics" of track limits change between hotlapping/qualifying and racing? Use the track limits to qualify but impose some arbitrary limit during the race? I don't see the logic here.

 

[viper al]

Mr P ,Thank you for a good laugh this morning.Thought I would join this leaky faucet of a thread.As history will show ,racers will ALWAYS push rules to the limits .We can judge or put labels on people because we don't do it or did not think of it first. But that does not change the fact that RACERS not only race other racers ,they also race the rules.A couple of examples; McCLAREN'S F-DUCT(DRS),PENSKE'S MERCEDES INDY CAR ,RENAULT'S MASS DAMPER AND ALL THE CRAZINESS OF NASCAR.In my opinion that was a beautiful lap by ZZZ ,because he pushed the rules to the limit.👍

 

[Mr P]

You're Welcome! I'm here all week 👍

 

[Rinsky]

Why would the "ethics" of track limits change between hotlapping/qualifying and racing? Use the track limits to qualify but impose some arbitrary limit during the race? I don't see the logic here.

Very simple. In the real world of motorsports curb riding and or curb cutting is quite common with no to very little penalty for doing so but once you do it to advance your position by overtaking someone that way and it becomes a bigger deal with very heavy consequences handed out.
So if this is the common practice of multimillion-dollar real life motorsports than why should a $60 video game be any different.

For all I know the game could hand out a huge penalty for overtaking someone that way. I've never tried it so I don't know if it would or not.

 

[superwally]

For me this thread is less about track limits, and more about how people choose to test themselves, or avoid testing themselves.

The track limits are inconsistent, and generally not strict enough. The top 10 frequently use these extra areas to gain time. Others may as well, even though they do not reach the top 10.

The question is, are people complaining because they are uncomfortable 'exploiting' these limits, or is it an excuse for lack of pace?

If you think you are as fast as Driver X, but he 'cheats', then you can tell yourself you are just as fast but morally superior. Never attempting a comparable lap can either be 'taking the high road' or avoiding true competition-you might not be as fast as you think you are. To satisfy your ego, you make a rule up, and no longer have to compete with those who don't play by it. They are 'cheaters'. Their times are invalid.

But is their pace invalid? Are they still not fast?

For everyone, there is a limit. I hated certain tracks online in GT6 because you could gain time by cutting chicanes, eating the penalty, and still have a faster lap. I chose not to race there. I knew I had the pace, I just couldn't get on with the corner cutting, it exceeded my moral boundaries.

 

[Mr P]

The question is, are people complaining because they are uncomfortable 'exploiting' these limits, or is it an excuse for lack of pace?

If you think you are as fast as Driver X, but he 'cheats', then you can tell yourself you are just as fast but morally superior. Never attempting a comparable lap can either be 'taking the high road' or avoiding true competition-you might not be as fast as you think you are. To satisfy your ego, you make a rule up, and no longer have to compete with those who don't play by it. They are 'cheaters'. Their times are invalid.

Sorry that's not my reasoning nor find it a solution to this issue


Good luck finding some kind of resolve in here guys! Nothing left for me to say.. ttfn

 

[kilesa4568]

The question is, are people complaining because they are uncomfortable 'exploiting' these limits, or is it an excuse for lack of pace?

While I'm not complaining about track limits, I am complaining about a general lack of pace.

I've asked myself if I was at the same pace as the top 10, would I take the same cuts and I've got to say yes, I probably would, but only if every top driver did the same. I'd be forced into it to stay in contention whether I liked doing it or not. I would limit it to qualifying though as it would go against the grain using it to pass someone in a race. As contradictory as that sounds, I couldn't take the cut against someone that didn't.

Sorry that's not my reasoning nor find it a solution to this issue

There's no solution when polarised opinions argue.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

How is that the same?? Punting someone off causes a fellow player to lose position and possibly SR and also leads to untold Posts about broken game on GT Planet, Using Track limits to the fullest does not impede any other driver

How is overtaking someone off the track not cheating, just because the track limits are bugged. Overtaking someone by using them as a guard rail is fine too as long as the penalty doesn't trigger?

You are already causing a fellow player to lose position at the starting grid by qualifying like that.

How is exploring how to abuse the track limits any different from exploring how to abuse the penalty system. You are abusing the penalty system by finding places where the penalty doesn't trigger.

PD is probably just so lax with track boundaries since the penalty system is incapable of assigning the right blame when one player pushes the other off track. There would be a lot more penalties handed out to the wrong players if track boundaries were fixed.

The thing is that in GT sport the physics are not very realistic and you don’t get penalised for going on the grass with two wheels like you would in real life. If I compare driving a lap around the Nordschleife in GT sport where I can do some ridiculous cutting corner and driving on the grass if I would do that on assetto Corsa I would spin out immediately. So my take on it is that because the physics in GT doesn’t penalize going on the grass as much as real life or assetto that they need to make the track limits more strict to stop people cutting corners that would result in a big crash in real life.

Did you set the tire grip to real? In GT5 the grass was quite deadly with tire grip on real, at least with the Le mans cars I raced a lot. I wonder if tire grip is real in sport races. It probably isn't as you have far too much control on grass. Maybe it's extra abrasive astro turf.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Many things are written claiming it is not an advantage as everyone can do it, or it is okay because PD set the limits this way but I do know that on the last set of tight S curves after the hairpin on Kyoto Yamigiwa that the last corner can be cut and offers a much better angle onto the straight going to the final corner that results in a noticeable speed difference down the straight.

That is a corner that cutting the corner right does gain a lap time advantage over not cutting the corner.

Now it is okay as it is fair for everyone to do because PD set the limit that way according to most opinions within the thread.

But I do know that different cars react differently to going over curbs whether due to design or base tune as applied and must be used by PD.

Some cars you cut that corner as you would with other cars a crash or off track excursion is of too much a risk to safely use the full limits as allowed by the game.

Due to those differences in the stability or lack of upset and whether that limit can be FAIRLY exploited equally by every driver regardless of car driven on the section of corners using all of the "allowable" limits would be at best very debatable for that particular corner.

This is just one of the reasons that I personally feel the limits should be much tighter than what is currently allowed in many corners.

And yes if I am driving a car that remains stable over those curbings I do cut that corner as it gives me an advantage in speed on the straight to close the gap over a car I am chasing to close the gap if that person does not cut that corner.

But according to this thread I am not using the games limits to gain an advantage over another player that has chosen a car that does not cross curbings well and refrains from that same curb cut as a result..

 

[Imari]

Everyone thinks they have the answer.. but nobody really has the answer!

Incorrect. Polyphony has the answer, and that's the rules that are in the game at the moment. Anyone else that thinks they have the answer is fooling themselves.

So if this is the common practice of multimillion-dollar real life motorsports than why should a $60 video game be any different.

Exactly because one is a multi-million dollar motorsport and one is a video game. These things are not the same.

But according to this thread I am not using the games limits to gain an advantage over another player that has chosen a car that does not cross curbings well and refrains from that same curb cut as a result..

Car selection is part of the game. You'll note that some cars perform better than others at certain tracks even before you start taking curbs into account. If you want to include curb riding ability as a factor in your car choice then that sounds completely reasonable, particularly on tracks that have significant time to be gained by doing so.

I agree that the game would be better if the limits were tighter, but for all we know it was an intentional design choice by Polyphony.

 

[Rinsky]

Exactly because one is a multi-million dollar motorsport and one is a video game. These things are not the same.

Just trying to understand this.
So in your opinion a video game that is meant to simulate real life racing and it's rules shouldn't follow real life racing at all and should have its own made up set of rules?
And what they are allowed to do in real Motorsports should be completely different from a Motorsport video game?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Car selection is part of the game. You'll note that some cars perform better than others at certain tracks even before you start taking curbs into account. If you want to include curb riding ability as a factor in your car choice then that sounds completely reasonable, particularly on tracks that have significant time to be gained by doing so.

I agree that the game would be better if the limits were tighter, but for all we know it was an intentional design choice by Polyphony.

I understand what you are saying, getting a little off track for this thread in other threads about BoP balance I have said that the BoP needs to be set differently for each car at each different circuit and of course I was given it is not that way in real life.

But in real life each car runs a "season" all on the same circuit rotations which generally equals out over all circuits run.

Here in game we are running a one off race with no different circuit to equal out the performance down the road.

The only race that forces the same car over a series of races is the manufacturers cup where there the same BoP applied to all cars for all races advantage/ disadvantage of the different circuits may balance out.

How many threads do you see people complaining about 15 of the same OP car being used on a particular circuit?

When you are running one off races and players can change cars for every race then to keep parity among the cars and an equal competition level between car makes the BoP needs to be adjusted to each individual circuit.

I would much rather the game allow me to drive the same car at Suzuka as I drive on Dragon Trail with the same level of competition between the car I drive versus the other choices within the game.

Otherwise just make all the races a one make race, that is the way things are starting to lean at some races if you want to run near the top race pace.

This game needs a lot of work in a lot of areas to really reach the potential of what it is capable of.

I have always been a strong defender of the game and its concepts but the flaws currently within the product in someways are starting to turn into some major issues in my opinion.

 

[Stotty]

For me this thread is less about track limits, and more about how people choose to test themselves, or avoid testing themselves.

The track limits are inconsistent, and generally not strict enough. The top 10 frequently use these extra areas to gain time. Others may as well, even though they do not reach the top 10.

The question is, are people complaining because they are uncomfortable 'exploiting' these limits, or is it an excuse for lack of pace?

If you think you are as fast as Driver X, but he 'cheats', then you can tell yourself you are just as fast but morally superior. Never attempting a comparable lap can either be 'taking the high road' or avoiding true competition-you might not be as fast as you think you are. To satisfy your ego, you make a rule up, and no longer have to compete with those who don't play by it. They are 'cheaters'. Their times are invalid.

But is their pace invalid? Are they still not fast?

For everyone, there is a limit. I hated certain tracks online in GT6 because you could gain time by cutting chicanes, eating the penalty, and still have a faster lap. I chose not to race there. I knew I had the pace, I just couldn't get on with the corner cutting, it exceeded my moral boundaries.

I can run top 10 Q times at Suzuka, Nurb GP, Interlagos and Brands. Other than a couple of places where you can run wide on the exits, the real tracks have pretty decent limits.

I choose not to race on the fake tracks with their10m wide kerbs. Im sure I could run top 10 times there as well if I put the effort in, but running those lines is just not for me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just trying to understand this.
So in your opinion a video game that is meant to simulate real life racing and it's rules shouldn't follow real life racing at all and should have its own made up set of rules? And what they are allowed to do in real Motorsports should be completely different from a Motorsport video game?

Could I see an example of an FIA sanctioned race series where it's legal to get all 4 wheels 6 feet inside of the curbing during qualifying or at any point in a race where it wasn't caused by another driver or some kind of major error?

 

[Jumbone1]

GTS off road physics are too forgiving, in reality you would lose grip/unsettle the car and have dirty tyres for the next few corners.

The track limits need tightening more, going all four wheels beyond the kerbing on the inside is cutting. Max Verstappen tried this on Kimi Raikkonen on last lap of US GP and got a penalty.

Kerbstones/Run off beyond Red\White kerbing is not race track and is most typically seen as cutting if on the inside, unless pre agreed with the stewards but this is normally when running out wide.

At end of the day the game allows it, if you want more realistic cutting rules then you will have to race in private lobbies in a league with clear cut rules, and then examine replays post race for cutting and add time penalties. This has worked well in PC based leagues/championships I've run in, or play IRacing.

The clearest way for all and for enforcing would probably be that some part of the tyre should be in contact with the tarmac at all times. Fast guys will still be fast though, but at least it would be easier for all to understand where the limits are, because currently they are invisible and not obvious on many corners in the game.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

The clearest way for all and for enforcing would probably be that some part of the tyre should be in contact with the tarmac at all times. Fast guys will still be fast though, but at least it would be easier for all to understand where the limits are, because currently they are invisible and not obvious on many corners in the game.

This to me is the best solution overall and makes all tracks and all corners abide by the same limits which is how it should be in a produced for the masses game rather than have the rules be blurred by limits which differ throughout the whole game.

 

[JacksHerer]

I think PD expanded some of the limits to allow two cars to race side by side with a bit of tolerance on penalties, it would be dull if people daren't race in fear of getting penalties.
It would be nice if more than two tires outside of the white lines made the lap red and not count towards qualifying times or fastest laps, and more than 50% red laps without having a cause from a contact penalty, would get a time penalty added at the finish line.

It is what it is though, everyone has the option to use the same driving lines.

 

[Veinz]

Harsher penalties for cutting during a race would be ok with me. T2, T3 and T4 and the final chicane in todays Race C (Nurb GP) is a joke. Going off track in qualy is one thing but people who do it during the race to get a cheap pass really irk me.

 

[Shottah072]

GTS off road physics are too forgiving, in reality you would lose grip/unsettle the car and have dirty tyres for the next few corners.

The track limits need tightening more, going all four wheels beyond the kerbing on the inside is cutting. Max Verstappen tried this on Kimi Raikkonen on last lap of US GP and got a penalty.

Kerbstones/Run off beyond Red\White kerbing is not race track and is most typically seen as cutting if on the inside, unless pre agreed with the stewards but this is normally when running out wide.

At end of the day the game allows it, if you want more realistic cutting rules then you will have to race in private lobbies in a league with clear cut rules, and then examine replays post race for cutting and add time penalties. This has worked well in PC based leagues/championships I've run in, or play IRacing.

The clearest way for all and for enforcing would probably be that some part of the tyre should be in contact with the tarmac at all times. Fast guys will still be fast though, but at least it would be easier for all to understand where the limits are, because currently they are invisible and not obvious on many corners in the game.

Even in iRacing you use as much of the track as the game will allow you to get away with, pushing it is part of finding the speed. Some places iRacing will also allow 4 wheels of the tarmac, and the best will always take use of that. Sebring and Imola allow it of the top of my head, but sure there are more track where its possible.

Its a game, a competitive game, to win at the game you need to push to the boundaries of whats possible and allowed within the game. Not push to the boundaries of whats possible and allowed in real life. Even in real life track limits are not as simple as 4 wheel within the lines and they vary on series, tracks and corners.

I do agree though that at some tracks in GTS the tracklimits could be set better and more strict. But its PD who have set the limits for players to find. Not the FIA or real life stewards. But dont be fooled, if track limits will get enforced more strict you will still find the same drivers on top.

 

[JacksHerer]

It bothered me before I saw a video on here of how the limits are exceeded in some real life racing. I still can't bring myself to deliberately take those driving lines, but at least now I don't brake to stay on the track when I make an error.

 

[F4H Rosso]

I can run top 10 Q times at Suzuka, Nurb GP, Interlagos and Brands. Other than a couple of places where you can run wide on the exits, the real tracks have pretty decent limits.

I choose not to race on the fake tracks with their10m wide kerbs. Im sure I could run top 10 times there as well if I put the effort in, but running those lines is just not for me.

Lol wat

 

[Imari]

Just trying to understand this.
So in your opinion a video game that is meant to simulate real life racing and it's rules shouldn't follow real life racing at all and should have its own made up set of rules?
And what they are allowed to do in real Motorsports should be completely different from a Motorsport video game?

Before we get started, you should note that I haven't said that I don't think games should follow real life rules at all. That's a strawman on your part to make me easy to shoot down. There are some parts of the real life rules that work in GTS and others that don't. But let's assume that you meant it like a reasonable person and wanted to discuss why the rules of real life motorsport and video games don't overlap entirely. And this is not what I think they should be, this is about what they are.

As far as being a game that is meant to simulate real life racing, you may want to be careful how much of the Polyphony Kool Aid you swallow.

Yes, GTS is marketed as an accurate simulation of real life motorsport. That is the publically stated intention. On the other hand, a quick look at the game will immediately show some pretty glaring differences.
-The physics aren't great, but given that no physics system is perfect I suppose you could accept that it's close enough. Although it does allow for some driving that you simply couldn't do in a real car.
-The impact damage isn't even enabled in a lot of races, and it's pretty minor when it is on. Given this is one of the main incentives for real life drivers to avoid contact this seems like a large difference to me. Incidents that should be race ending do nothing in GTS.
-Ditto mechanical damage. Why avoid running over 12 inch sausages at 100mph when it doesn't do anything to your car?
-Races include fantasy cars with impossible technologies. Realistic motorsports!
-Many races are so short as to actively encourage abusive driving to get a result. There's a reason no real competitive race is ~5 minutes long, because that's barely enough time for the field to spread out and settle down let alone get some separate based on skill.
-It's pretty debatable whether some of the fantasy tracks would actually receive FIA certification in the real world. They have a rubber stamp in GTS because video game, but in reality there are safety features and run off requirements that simply don't exist.
-Racing from a floating chair above and behind your car where you have perfect visibility? And I get a radar as well? Awesome!

We all remember the "competitive motorsport" race at Copper Box way back when. In some respects the game has come a long way since, but in many ways it's exactly the same with cars bouncing freely off each other and looking like a real motorsport only when drivers are nowhere near each other.

All these differences add up to an experience that is markedly different to "real motorsport". It looks similar in stills, and sometimes in motion if nobody does something silly, but really it's a completely different beast to real motorsport. Polyphony and Sony have done a wonderful job of the marketing that people think that it's an accurate representation of motorsport, but it really, really isn't.

That isn't to say that it can't be fun or a good competitive game. Simply that trying to hold it to the same standards as real life motorsport when it has so many clear points of distinction is really an effort in futility. You might as well be trying to apply real life rules of war to CSGO. It has similarities, but it's not the same.

You'll see that in games that do better with the things that I mentioned above they end up looking more like real motorsport, and it becomes easier and more rational to apply the same reasoning for real life motorsports rules to the games. Although even then the rules will not be identical to real life motorsport, because a game is not the same as reality. But in Gran Turismo Sport, it's just too far away from reality for much of that stuff to make any sense at all.

 

[Walkinshaw]

11(+) page thread shows that it is a pretty emotive subject in the community and maybe cutting corners is not as "fair" as the corner cutters think it is.

Who knows how you fix it though, there will always be people looking to exploit something for their own advantage.

 

[shaunus]

11(+) page thread shows that it is a pretty emotive subject in the community and maybe cutting corners is not as "fair" as the corner cutters think it is.

Who knows how you fix it though, there will always be people looking to exploit something for their own advantage.

The fact a lot of people comment has no bearing on how 'fair' it is. The track limit rules are set. There are some that are a bit generous, but they are identical for all and evenly applied, and easy to find out. These are not exploits of an unintended loophole, or exploiting a bad AI penalty system, these are the necessary track limits as CHOSEN by the devs.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

The fact a lot of people comment has no bearing on how 'fair' it is. The track limit rules are set. There are some that are a bit generous, but they are identical for all and evenly applied, and easy to find out. These are not exploits of an unintended loophole, or exploiting a bad AI penalty system, these are the necessary track limits as CHOSEN by the devs.

The wall riding at Tokyo is just racers apparently that have explored the limits as CHOSEN by the devs using those available track limits available to all as well as the limits are set.

Just like the corners the amount of variances between walls is just like the differences for corners, you have to go explore and find which ones allow you to ride without penalty just as you have to explore to find which corners the entire vehicle can be off the tarmac and receive no penalty while the next corner you barely run off the and you get a penalty.

There is no pattern and there is no uniformity just whatever PD set for a limit just like you can ride some walls and not others and corners you can cut some as others and it is available for everyone! It is not and exploit or a glitch just the games limits.

If that argument works for one it works for the other, just because you personally approve of one and not the other does not change the fact the devs apparently chose to have both in the game. It is just up to the racers to find the limits as they vary greatly throughout the game.

 

[shaunus]

Nonsense, the wall riding is clearly an unintended exploit. the track limits are entirely intentional. You must know this. Maybe stop posting straw comparisons?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Nonsense, the wall riding is clearly an unintended exploit. the track limits are entirely intentional. You must know this. Maybe stop posting straw comparisons?

Not posting straw comparisons.
Just not using double standards to justify one of two issues that work within the game exactly the same and one is defended by being allowed by PD and the other as a glitch when no one here can say that was the devs intentions or not in either case.

I personally do not like either issue but regardless they both work the same, they both are available to everyone and they both are allowed by the game. So from that standpoint they are the same whether you like it or not and until PD makes changes it is legal to do within the game for all players.

Just like corner cutting whether you choose to do it is up to you it is not illegal within the game.

And as far as the wall riding I do not even go on any of the Tokyo tracks where this is happening at all so I could really care less.

I just get tired of the double standards that are worse than those in Hollywood between the male actors and female actresses pay scales for the same work.