Understanding The Deltawing

  • Thread starter diptob79
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RAZRr1275
There's nothing wrong with the car - you just have to follow three rules that it basically shouts at you

1) Don't lift through corners

2) Don't even think about trail braking

3) Stay far away from the rumble strips or dirt

Do that and you have a dead neutral car that is super fast
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Actually, with the right amount of rear downforce in place, you can trail braking with the right amount of input. Not like MF1 GTR95 or other Formula cars you trail braking without worrying, you can do a slight trail braking to adjust the racing line. But definitely no lift up or grass, the whole car will just puff spun out of the right way.
 
Fantastically slow, this thing. Tuned it for 600pp Nordschleife to see if it can hit the 6:20 mark like most racecars, and it isn't even close.

Sure the top speed is great, upwards of 180. But it is a caterpillar getting there.

This doesn't hold a candle to racecars in the 600-700pp region I'm sorry to say (well, at least on real race tracks)

It is however worth the 2 mill price, because driving it is so damn interesting. Just wish it was a bit faster..
 
seanneedscar
Fantastically slow, this thing. Tuned it for 600pp Nordschleife to see if it can hit the 6:20 mark like most racecars, and it isn't even close.

Sure the top speed is great, upwards of 180. But it is a caterpillar getting there.

This doesn't hold a candle to racecars in the 600-700pp region I'm sorry to say (well, at least on real race tracks)

It is however worth the 2 mill price, because driving it is so damn interesting. Just wish it was a bit faster..
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Are you using the silver or black version of the Deltawing?
 
Sier_Pinski
The silver ALMS version is much faster, and from what I've read, the car's PP is about as high as some of the game's more powerful Group C race cars.
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The silver one only has a 46 or so HP advantage over the black one, yet also weighing more

Keep in mind I modify the cars heavily to get them down to 600PP.. after that much weight / HP nerfing, they are effectively the same car.

Maybe its dumb of me to try to run these at 600PP, but from where I'm sitting, even at their native PP (660ish) they are going to get beaten.
 
seanneedscar
The silver one only has a 46 or so HP advantage over the black one, yet also weighing more

Keep in mind I modify the cars heavily to get them down to 600PP.. after that much weight / HP nerfing, they are effectively the same car.

Maybe its dumb of me to try to run these at 600PP, but from where I'm sitting, even at their native PP (660ish) they are going to get beaten.
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I'd say the problem with that is that the way that the DeltaWing works, and the characteristic from which it derives its laptimes, is from its massive traction giving it a big launch out of corners. If you turn down the power then you're really hobbling its ability to generate laptime, far more significantly than the same power reduction applied to a 'normal' prototype. The car needs to be gently slowed down, brought to the apex as early in the corner as you can, and then just absolutely nail it out of the corner. Once you get that technique down, the laptimes with this car tumble.

Plus, let's not forget that this is a racing car, not a Time Attack car - while it may not have the absolute ultimate laptime of an LMP1, it is also much much easier on fuel and tyres, meaning that you have to make far fewer stops, and there is far less performance dropoff over a stint. Over a race duration, this can well make the difference; a race is about who completes the race distance in the shortest time, not who sets the fastest lap.
 
I have found that I have to start turning very early in this, it requires a lot of concentration to drive. But when you get corners right you can really get a feel for the car's credentials. However I don't think I can ever drive it to it's potential.

NB: I used a tune I found on the Tuning forum, so it doesn't oversteer.
 
phonyk
I'd say the problem with that is that the way that the DeltaWing works, and the characteristic from which it derives its laptimes, is from its massive traction giving it a big launch out of corners. If you turn down the power then you're really hobbling its ability to generate laptime, far more significantly than the same power reduction applied to a 'normal' prototype. The car needs to be gently slowed down, brought to the apex as early in the corner as you can, and then just absolutely nail it out of the corner. Once you get that technique down, the laptimes with this car tumble.

Plus, let's not forget that this is a racing car, not a Time Attack car - while it may not have the absolute ultimate laptime of an LMP1, it is also much much easier on fuel and tyres, meaning that you have to make far fewer stops, and there is far less performance dropoff over a stint. Over a race duration, this can well make the difference; a race is about who completes the race distance in the shortest time, not who sets the fastest lap.
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I wholehearted agree with you. I too noticed the vastly different way the car needs to be driven. Despite its bonkers weight distribution, you can just give it the beans out of a corner and it is planted. However the lack of front grip, I've noticed, means it has to brake and turn in early.. And it suffers in high-speed corners more than LMP1 cars. And where I was using it - Nordschleife - a cars capability in high speed corners absolutely determine its usefulness

You very well could be right about it winning via pit strategy. I didn't think of that..

eSZee
Both the Deltawings are in the 730pp range.
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Maybe when they are fully modified. but not stock. Stock for stock Deltawings fall right in LMP PP

I have every confidence at 730pp a Minolta will fly circles around a Deltawing (for 1 lap only, hehe)

rapida diablo
I have found that I have to start turning very early in this, it requires a lot of concentration to drive. But when you get corners right you can really get a feel for the car's credentials. However I don't think I can ever drive it to it's potential.

NB: I used a tune I found on the Tuning forum, so it doesn't oversteer.
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Sure does. Took me quite awhile to put down a clean lap

ITs odd that so many of you complain of oversteer. I found it to not oversteer at all. Actually quite the opposite

I will say though, once you lose the rear end, it will spin faster than any car I have ever seen
 
yzfmike
300HP for Nissan, and 345 HP for the Mazda. The Nissan Engine was a Juke engine that was detuned for the 300HP. The Mazda engine was a custom built that well did not have good reliability due to engine issues and electric gremlins.
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Hate to respond to this almost a month later, but I'd like to point out that the engine in the Nissan DeltaWing has nothing in common with the Juke's engine. It's the same 1.6l Turbo made by RML that they used in their WTCC Chevrolet's, just modified for Endurance racing and a Nissan badge slapped on it.
 
I found the deltawing easy to drive, because my driving style is aggresive and fair, i like the feel of the deltawing, and i can get some good laptimes with it. The tail slides just the right amount but not too much that the tires get shredded after 5 laps. I like this car
I use a driving force GT

Edit: have not driven it in 1.03 yet, if they have killed off the style, i will not be a happy bunny
 
I see no one mentioned LSD.

Initial lock ratio of LSD is the key!

I posted in other threads about this, I'd say it again here -- try increasing initial lock ratio of LSD, up to the degree close to accelerating side, and also increasing the % of decelerating to similar degree or over the other two. If still no idea, try 30/30/45, or 32/32/48, or something like that. (Everything else can be left untouched in default condition, or make fine tune to your liking.)

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ned-to-the-mr-cars.297180/page-9#post-9250657

Up to present, on cars I've met, this is the key point to tame almost every car with snap oversteer when lift-off. This setup principle applied nicely on Audi R8 LMS, Lambo Diablo GT/GT2, Ferrari F40... etc, and also this Delta Wing. All of them can do trail braking and stay stable.

With such setup, you don't have to brake strictly in the straight anymore, which is not practical at all in the real world anyway. There're all kinds of bends and the combinations of them in any track, it's impossible to maintain a fluent pace without trail braking. I use it a lot. I NEED it.

When some cars can't do trail braking, there must be something wrong. It's doable on a bicycle in real world, isn't it? So there's no reason why any sport car or race car (with fat rear tires) can't do.

Try it. With much better stability and confidence, you'll find its cornering limit is very very high, and with agility of a new level. BTW, brake bias can be set very rearward, like 3/7 or 4/8.

To me, the only let down of this car is the plain and flat exhaust note.
 
jonjwlee
The overhang doesn't matter. What matters is the weight distribution, and on the DeltaWing 70-80% of the car's weight is at the rear. That's more than any 911.
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I think the point he was making was that 911s, particularly older ones, had overhang (and indeed most of the engine) behind the rear wheels. Front/Rear weight distribution becomes something of a generalisation then as it is regardless of the relative position of the engine and wheels.

EDIT -Ick, way to pick up a thread and reply to a post on the first page. Valid point though hopefully :)
 
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The setting mentioned in my last post is only good for dry condition.

I tried it on 24 min. Le Mans and it's no good. Swapping ends whenever I 'touch' the brake :(
 
jonjwlee
Well, I haven't driven it but supposedly that's the way to drive the car in real life; you have to brake in a straight line because the weight is very rear-biased (the weight distribution is 72.5% rear, 27.5% front). But you can get on the power far sooner because of the immense traction this set up provides. Chris Harris said you have to drive it "like an old 911".

The main benefit of the car is on the straights. Because it doesn't have a single wing and the frontal area is so small, it has far less drag than a normal race car; it can hit nearly 200 mph at Le Mans with only 320 bhp, less than half the power of an LMP1 car.

Here's Chris Harris driving the car, as well as the designer Ben Bowlby explaining the physics and engineering behind it:

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According to his video.. the physics behind this car are too complicated to simulate in GT6 perhaps.. although you do have to get the car slowed down before turning and driving through a corner.. I noticed this at Silverstone.. sadly the way the car breaks away mid corner, suddenly and without warning is the current problem.
 
No way to know what/how exactly it is IRL, but as a race car, especially for the most crowded Le Mans, I don't think it's reasonable to set the car "like an old 911". That is, brake only in the straight, go slightly beyond the limit you're cooked.

This article on TopGear is a good read, FYR:
http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/First-drive-Nissan-BladeGlider-mule-2013-11-20

They setup a test mule from an Atom, modified it to rearward bias and changed the f/r track width and tire widths accordingly.

Pat Devereux
This is key to the whole Deltawing idea working - there is no net change in the amount of tyre in contact with the road, it's just redistributed relative to the weight shift. ‘That's a very, very important part of how this narrow track concept works,' says Bowlby. ‘It gives us this unique, consistent, and somehow coherent handling characteristic that's great fun to drive and makes you feel like a great driver.'....

In a straight line it doesn't feel any different. In hard cornering, instead of transferring all the weight to the outside wheel, it stays spread across both tyres, which together are wider - 310mm - than the standard Atom's 195mm tyre. So you have more grip and feel and you can pile on more power. And because you've got bigger rear tyres you can load them up harder and faster. I could fee it happening but the only problem I had was proving it.

...
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In the end of the day, they found the test mule is faster than standard Atom by 5% in cornering speed.

So, that is the test mule, what about the race car? In the hands of professional racing team, I think it must be much better than the temporary test mule.

And then the cars in GT6? I guess it should be at least equally good as the real ones. That said, if it's hard to drive fast, it must be something wrong in the setting.
 
Soon after the early celebration in my post #139, I had a hard time with the car on the wet track of 24 min Le Mans. The previous successful setting for dry is not working on wet. The difference is night and day. I was totally baffled, no idea how to deal with it.

Then, a helping hand from ULTRAVIOLENZZ reached me with a 'secret' recipe by his own hard works. At the first glance, some numbers didn't make sense to me, but I tried anyway because I had surprising moments not long ago, showing how ignorant I was.

Bingo! it works wonderfully on wet Le Mans. (and the fact it brought me an easy winning is no big deal by comparison)

I'd like to share some important principle of the tuning here. (Sorry for no exact numbers but I think it's good enough, since within a certain range, adaptation between driving style and tuning happens naturally. For those who really want to tune the car, a guideline is more than enough.)

Described as proportion by the scale bar on each parameters (except camber and toe):

Spring rate:
front: 100% / rear: 60% ~ 70%

Damping (both ways, fine tune as you like):
front: 50% ~ 60% / rear: 60%-ish

Sway bar:
front: n.a. / rear: 100%

Camber:
front: 1.8~2.0 / rear: 0~0.2

Toe:
front: -0.5 ~ 0 / rear: -0.5 ~ -0.35 (surprised? me too, but it works!)

Brake bias: very rearward, or tune as you like

LSD (rear only, initial torque/acceleration/deceleration): very low / lowest / low (puzzled? me too, but it works!)

Gear box: set the top speed to your need.

Down force: 100%

By such setting, with intermedium or RS tires on the bumpy and wet Le Mans, the car stays very stable and coherent no matter in the straight or bends, accelerating or braking. It feels neutral and easy to me in all speed. Very high limit of this car is approachable and controllable.

Please give it a try and feedback.

And then, let's have some chat on the LSD and toe, shall we?
 
LS Chiou
Soon after the early celebration in my post #139, I had a hard time with the car on the wet track of 24 min Le Mans. The previous successful setting for dry is not working on wet. The difference is night and day. I was totally baffled, no idea how to deal with it.

Then, a helping hand from ULTRAVIOLENZZ reached me with a 'secret' recipe by his own hard works. At the first glance, some numbers didn't make sense to me, but I tried anyway because I had surprising moments not long ago, showing how ignorant I was.

Bingo! it works wonderfully on wet Le Mans. (and the fact it brought me an easy winning is no big deal by comparison)

I'd like to share some important principle of the tuning here. (Sorry for no exact numbers but I think it's good enough, since within a certain range, adaptation between driving style and tuning happens naturally. For those who really want to tune the car, a guideline is more than enough.)

Described as proportion by the scale bar on each parameters (except camber and toe):

Spring rate:
front: 100% / rear: 60% ~ 70%

Damping (both ways, fine tune as you like):
front: 50% ~ 60% / rear: 60%-ish

Sway bar:
front: n.a. / rear: 100%

Camber:
front: 1.8~2.0 / rear: 0~0.2

Toe:
front: -0.5 ~ 0 / rear: -0.5 ~ -0.35 (surprised? me too, but it works!)

Brake bias: very rearward, or tune as you like

LSD (rear only, initial torque/acceleration/deceleration): very low / lowest / low (puzzled? me too, but it works!)

Gear box: set the top speed to your need.

Down force: 100%

By such setting, with intermedium or RS tires on the bumpy and wet Le Mans, the car stays very stable and coherent no matter in the straight or bends, accelerating or braking. It feels neutral and easy to me in all speed. Very high limit of this car is approachable and controllable.

Please give it a try and feedback.

And then, let's have some chat on the LSD and toe, shall we?
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:bowdown:HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!

Also did you noticed the Deltawing is immune to the bumpy track of Sarthe? Yeah its still shaky but doesn't influence the car's handling vs 4 wheeled cars. Maybe it triangular design...it just most side to side vs 4wheels shaking from all directions. Deltawing FTW! Now what about LSD and Toe? :odd:
 
The problem I have with my Delta Wing 2012 is that the car is handling a lot like a front wheel drive car, but I might have to more with balance of the car a little more.
 
LS Chiou
Soon after the early celebration in my post #139, I had a hard time with the car on the wet track of 24 min Le Mans. The previous successful setting for dry is not working on wet. The difference is night and day. I was totally baffled, no idea how to deal with it.

Then, a helping hand from ULTRAVIOLENZZ reached me with a 'secret' recipe by his own hard works. At the first glance, some numbers didn't make sense to me, but I tried anyway because I had surprising moments not long ago, showing how ignorant I was.

Bingo! it works wonderfully on wet Le Mans. (and the fact it brought me an easy winning is no big deal by comparison)

I'd like to share some important principle of the tuning here. (Sorry for no exact numbers but I think it's good enough, since within a certain range, adaptation between driving style and tuning happens naturally. For those who really want to tune the car, a guideline is more than enough.)

Described as proportion by the scale bar on each parameters (except camber and toe):

Spring rate:
front: 100% / rear: 60% ~ 70%

Damping (both ways, fine tune as you like):
front: 50% ~ 60% / rear: 60%-ish

Sway bar:
front: n.a. / rear: 100%

Camber:
front: 1.8~2.0 / rear: 0~0.2

Toe:
front: -0.5 ~ 0 / rear: -0.5 ~ -0.35 (surprised? me too, but it works!)

Brake bias: very rearward, or tune as you like

LSD (rear only, initial torque/acceleration/deceleration): very low / lowest / low (puzzled? me too, but it works!)

Gear box: set the top speed to your need.

Down force: 100%

By such setting, with intermedium or RS tires on the bumpy and wet Le Mans, the car stays very stable and coherent no matter in the straight or bends, accelerating or braking. It feels neutral and easy to me in all speed. Very high limit of this car is approachable and controllable.

Please give it a try and feedback.

And then, let's have some chat on the LSD and toe, shall we?
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Hey LS Chiou...
I tried the set up you listed above after not being able to make much improvement on my own and found something I like a lot so thanks for giving a me a base to start with since I tweaked the set up to suit my driving style...I admit im on a DS3 controller and not as skilled as some so I use the driver aides most of the time unless it's a race online where I can't...
Anyway give my set up a try and tell me what you think

Driving aides On
Active Steering Mild
TC 1
ABS 3 or 4

727 PP
424 HP
Weight Dist. 33/67
490 kg

Tires: tried a few combos including RM front/RS rear..RH/RH..RS/RS (best option)
Springs 5.30/18.31
Compression 5/6
Extension 4/6
ARB 1/5
Camber 0/0
Toe -0.25/0.60
Brakes 2/4

Max Speed 205 mph
Final Gear 4.245
Auto gearing

LSD 6/9/8

Mid RPM Range Turbo

Downforce 438/1500

I tested at Grand Valley Speedway
As I started tweaking the set up I ran 1:42's and progressively got better and ran a 1:38.076 on fastest lap...as I said not as skilled as some so you or someone else probably run faster times but car felt stable under braking and turn in as well as a bit more settled under acceleration out of the corner and holding the line a bit better on exit...
 
Hi KOGSoldier, Glad you like it. The original tuner ULTRAVIOLENZZ is also a DS3 users.;)

Don't worry about the small adjustments on those numbers. I think, within a certain range, the effect from a tiny adjustment is also tiny, which would probably be largely (sub)merged in the adaptation of driving. Unless the goal is to slash 0.0x sec. lap time, or I won't care too much about the little differences of tuning numbers. I consider the interaction is more important, which is pretty much set by a larger picture of tuning -- the principle of the whole combination.

In this case, the principle is making the rear relatively more grippy, by stiffening the front and softening the rear (in a view of f/r balance related to the default setting). Larger camber in the front reduces its grip even further. This moves the character from oversteer to under. (under is a relative term here, obviously)

Not yet have the time for trying your numbers (it's daytime and I'm working now). The major difference of your setting, as I can see, is the rear toe. This is one of the mystery I don't understand on this car.

According to the description on the left panel of tuning page --also in sync with common sense IRL-- positive number means toe in and negative is toe out. Toe in is good for stability but not for agility... etc. So far so good and this rule applies to most cars nicely, at least from my experiences (in GT and IRL). But on DeltaWing, it seems not the case.

My eyes popped and jaw dropped (as the avatar) when I first saw the -0.5 toe out on both front and rear in the tuning by ULTRAVIOLENZZ. I myself would never choose such a number for stability. But it just works, keeps very stable even when braking deep into the corner on wet track! Odd but true.

In the 24 min Le Mans, I decreased the toe out somewhat mainly for peace of mind, instead of the actual effect. Afterward, I tested more in free run, fiddled with the LSD and toe in Brands Hatch. It seems the effect of toe on this car is very small. Maybe it's somehow beyond my perception, or (sub)merged into the adaptation of driving.

On other (normal) cars, large toe out at rear would let them swing sideways when lift off or braking. At least it adds such tendency. But DeltaWing seems immune to this. I've tried -0.5 to +0.2, nothing significant was found. Odd. Can't explain. (Or I was so confused, lost in all those numbers? :ill: )

As to LSD, such low setting seems more or less like an open diff. By common sense, it can't provide the proper locking ratio to prevent inside rear spinning when accelerating out of a corner, also no (or little) stabilizing pull when decelerating. Again, this special car seems exempt this requirement to a very large extent.

And it seems the low LSD setting violates what I said in post #139. Yes, or maybe no, partially. I sort of figure out a theory for this.

Already very long. More later.

Any comments are welcome.:gtpflag:
 
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ULTRAVIOLENZZ
....

Also did you noticed the Deltawing is immune to the bumpy track of Sarthe? Yeah its still shaky but doesn't influence the car's handling vs 4 wheeled cars. Maybe it triangular design...it just most side to side vs 4wheels shaking from all directions....
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Yes indeed! Nice finding. It's very different between this 3-point configuration and ordinary 4-corner -- 3-point is always on a flat plain.

I think one of the key factor is the corner weight. On 4 wheeled cars, the 4 corners are bumping up and down constantly and randomly on track. Much of the time, there'd be imbalance of loading between two diagonals. It's like the bumps are poking the 4 corners individually (from the ground), and each poke is trying to flip the car.

On race cars, among other things, there're all sorts of dilemmas in suspension setting. For tarmac, it's usually very stiff, and also with high torsional rigidity (for compliance of suspension, not body structure here, although it's rigid too). This is mainly for minimum weight transfer, fast reactions and not crushed by the high down force.

And the situation on Sarthe is difficult. It's too bumpy as the cars are running so fast here. It can't be too soft for other reasons, so inevitably those cars are bumped all over the place -- in the entire track, and at all 4 corners of chassis.

OTOH, the DeltaWing sidestep this problem so nicely by its 3-point basic shape (2 close front wheels considered as one contact patch). There's no diagonals to be bothered, only side to side rockings which do not affect the grip and stability. Another strong point of this car.
 

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