Understeer Rattle Effect (Poll-Only for Wheel Users)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by super_gt, Apr 1, 2018.

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What do you think about the understeer rattle effect ?

  1. I like this strong rattle effect and I do not want to be changed.

    18.8%
  2. I like this rattle effect but I want to be weakened.

    12.4%
  3. I do not like this rattle effect and I want to be completely removed.

    13.8%
  4. I have no opinion.

    9.9%
  5. I would like to have an option to adjust the strength of this effect or turn it off.

    45.0%
  1. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Your point is a strawman.

    We don't need direct measured values to show if a fundamental is accurate or not, this has been explained already, and ignored by you.

    Measured data for what should happen has been provided and ignored by you already.

    You have been given an opportunity to counter this and you have refused repeatedly to do so, falling back on an invalid strawman instead.

    The force on the steering should reduce at the onset of understeer, this has been shown via numerous sources to be true, GTS instead provides a rattle/shake instead, no direct measured values are going to change that clear difference. As such either GTS is wrong, or every textbook on racecard and vehicle dynamics is wrong. I know which side my money would be on.

    However as you quite clearly disagree with the likes of Milliken and Milliken, the onus is on you to prove them wrong in this regard.

    Perhaps we will see that in your next post rather that the repeated strawman we seem to only get!
     
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  2. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Look, my point is measurement is an objective way to do a comparison.
    If I cared to I could show mountains of data and this whole thing would become quite academic in this regard and in all likelihood would go on for hundreds of pages of speculation about what forces are present in a steering wheel.
    I’m simply saying I will wait for the measurements before comparing.
    I mean I also have expirential evidence I could bring to the table in this regard via experience in karting.
    I’ve driven some rental karts that are beat to heck and I’ve driven good ones.
    One track I’ve driven has this long right hand fast sweeper and a garbage kart feels horrible in that turn with understeer, wheel vibration so to me it’s not illogical to conclude there’s something to the ffb in GTS.
    You can beat the dead horse of extrapolation from concept all you want, but I will withhold judgement until I see measurements that’s all.
    Nothing personal, I believe you are using a valid approach to attempt to predict what the measured values should be, but again for the last time that is different from comparing actual measured data from a vehicle and ffb wheel.
    Thank you for the engaging discussion, I enjoy your clear communications.
     
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  3. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    So your anecdotal evidence for this is a kart that was beaten up and could well have had shot bearings! I've driven and understeer Ed numerous road and race cars (in perfect mechanical condition) and none of then has rattled or vibrated the steering at the onset of understeer. Every single one has done the exact same fundamental thing, the steering gets lighter as the SAT reduces, at what point they do it, how quickly they do it and to what degree they did it varied, but every single one did it.

    GTS introduces a model of a cat with five legs.

    Everyone: That cats modeled wrong

    Groundfish: We can't possibly know that without a comparison to the exact measurements of the real cat to the one in GTS. Cats could really be like that, I once saw one with three legs, we don't know that cats as standard have four legs.

    Everyone: Deluge of pictures of cats and data showing that cats as standard have four legs.

    Groundfish:Nah, need the exact data of that exact cat to actually know this.....
     
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  4. Clean Racer

    Clean Racer

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    1,667
    There is a way to completely eliminate the strong rattle/vibration effect.

    I drive with a Thrustmaster T300 RS. All you have to do is switch the wheel from PS4 Mode to PS3 Mode prior to turning on your system. The wheel will boot up but you will have to use the DS4 to start up GT Sport. Once the Game starts up the wheel will self calibrate and you will be able to use it, the paddle shifters on it and most of the buttons.

    The PS button may not be recognized and you won't be able to use a TH8A shifter in H Pattern mode if it is connected to the wheel. I believe it still works in sequential mode.

    I am not sure if the shifter will work if connected directly to the PS4.

    I played this way for well over a year without any issues. I only recently switched it back to PS4 mode. The rest of the FFB is still present. The only thing missing was the understeer effect.

    My in game Settings:

    FFB Intensity = 3
    Sensitivity is = either 1 or 10
     
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  5. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    1,453

    This weeks daily b is a great example of mirroring what you have said your experience is.
    T2 is basically a set turn driven with throttle more than wheel. The effect I experience in my Mustang in game is just as you described real world to be with my settings. We agree!
    Also FIA Panorama at the top of the hill there, the left. My steering in the vette gr3 lightens very noticeably there and it’s easy to understeer up the top of the hill.
    I’ve looked at telemetry from players who have tire wear problems and complain of understeer and usually too much steering to late and failure to properly balance the car with the pedals but what do I know?Everywhere in game the steering lightens as that limit of grip approaches on my wheel in the cars I use with my settings and I experience no rattle effect.
    But, I am told my ffb has no fidelity in this thread by people who by their own admission do not own the game?
    That makes no sense.
    The interesting part is my experience in game matches your real world experience.
    Yet everyone sits there and tells me I’m stupid. It makes no sense.
    Further on t300 DONT RUN IT IN PS3 mode. Horrid advice.
    If there’s a massive rattle fix the horrid technique being applied or get the wheel serviced.

    What do cats have to do with Gran Turismo Sport?

    Cheers guys I’m not going to continue trying to win the internet today, you guys can have it. I’m effectively pulling into the pits on this one.

    Anyone can read my posts and yours and draw their own conclusions.

    Cheers
     
  6. super_gt

    super_gt

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    If you do not want oscillations use negative DRI values.
     
  7. LeGeNd-1

    LeGeNd-1 Premium

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    I think it would be quite easy to measure, say, the Nm of force a steering wheel of a race car outputs while going through Turn 3 at Fuji (just to pick a long and constant radius corner). It would be also quite easy to replicate the force felt by the player BUT unless the game physics + car simulation + your steering hardware matches exactly the real life configuration, it would just be the force that is the same, and all the numbers "under the hood" will be fudged to give that end result. Even worse, unless you have a DD wheel it's unlikely your wheel could match the force of a real car's wheel either. This is what I like to call the "top-down" approach in simulation. You try to get the end result as close to reality, and work backwards from there so the physics calculations gives that result at all costs.

    It would be a herculean task to do this for every car, on every track, and to calibrate it for every steering wheel that the game supports. People are already complaining we don't get enough cars, can you imagine how much longer it takes for PD to add new cars if they have to do all that testing? :sick: And even the same car could produce different values with time and wear/tear in the steering mechanism (flexing of metal rods, loosening of joints, etc). I've driven 2 exact same cars in real life that have completely different steering feel because one has high mileage and not looked after, and the other is driven only sparingly.

    So...what GT and other sims try to do is basically the "bottoms-up" approach in simulation. They build the physics engine based on real life physical principles (or as close as technology and maths allows us today). Then they do their best to interpret that signal through the hardware (i.e. steering wheel in your hands). So the numbers in the engine is as close as possible to real, but because of tech limitations and unknown variables (we cannot measure every possible force in real life, from the asphalt, through the steering mechanism, to your hands), the end force is not going to be exactly the same as reality. But in most cases it's good enough. Some sims get it more right than others, but even the best PC sims do not get it totally accurate either. GT does well for a mass market sim, but it's still a step below the best PC sims.

    To wrap things up, going back to the title of this thread:
    1. During understeer conditions IRL the wheel goes lighter as the wheel goes past the optimum slip angle. This isn't simulated in GTS, the force of FFB just stays constant.
    2. If you overturn the wheel in GTS, instead of lightening of force you get this rattling effect, which doesn't happen IRL unless you have wheel hop. And safe to say that not every understeer situation is causing wheel hop.

    Does it matter at the end of the day? It won't change the pecking order of FIA races. And personally I think there are bigger problems with GT (both physics, content and feature wise). BUT it is quite concerning how the team a PD can have the attention to detail of modelling the headlamps of a car correctly, but not get these basic simulation things right, even after 20+ years in the business. I'm sure Kaz knows this, because he is a very smart guy to be able to create Gran Turismo and do all the things he does. So that leaves the anomaly as a conscious design decision. And if it's Kaz' decision to have understeer rattle, then nothing we do will ever change that sadly.

    When the next round of signup for FIA Star Players come up, I will post a link to that video in the suggestions box. Who knows if it will reach Kaz, but I suggested longer races with more reasonable tyre/fuel multiplier last season and we got it this season, so nothing to lose :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  8. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    If someone could arrange for all drivers & wheel manufacturers who dislike this feature to mention it at the same time, maybe Kaz will start to listen.


    :idea:
     
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  9. breeminator

    breeminator

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    756
    I certainly wasn't suggesting they should do that, I'd suggest only doing the minimum required to perform a reasonable validation of the model. So you'd vary each parameter that can influence it, and check that the modelled behaviour matches the measured behaviour across that range of values. This doesn't guarantee the model is correct for all combinations of parameter values, but it's hugely better than not bothering at all.
     
  10. super_gt

    super_gt

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  11. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    Indeed. But how exactly have they adjusted it...made it stronger...weaker...or something else entirely...

    And, it doesn't help those of us with other brands of wheels. What they need to do is give us the option to adjust the strength of the effect as well as the ability to turn it off, then, everybody would be happy (it's really not a hard concept to grasp).


    :rolleyes:
     
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  12. Knukel

    Knukel

    Messages:
    484
    Hahaa! It's fixed, pure joy!
    Finally i can drive FF cars on Comfort tyres without the excessive wheel shaking... It actually goes light during understeer; without the so called "wheel hopping" or whatever.

    Still, I quess that it could be little more progressive though - not ON/OFF like AC's enhanced understeer effect.

    Slight rumble is still present at times, but it's nowhere near as violent.
     
  13. breeminator

    breeminator

    Messages:
    756
    I hate it. Can we have an option to have it work like it used to?! There's just no feel to the steering at all now, I can't tell when the car is understeering. I might have to switch my drivehub to G29 mode.......
     
  14. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    1,453
    Maybe if you had FEI way down before crank it up.
    Mine was at 040. I was leery about them changing ffb. I love the way my wheel feels. First race in the Porsche 962 it still felt really good though without any changes to settings.
     
  15. breeminator

    breeminator

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    756
    I was just thinking the same thing. Gave higher FEI a try and it's a big improvement, at least there is feedback, but it's horrible compared to how it was before. It used to have a really robust solid feel with FEI low, now you have to turn FEI up to get the same amount of feel, but the nature of it is worse, I can only describe it as feeling "hollow" and rattly rather than solid and robust.

    I think the problem is FEI mainly changes how it feels, not the strength of the effect. I already had the effect at max strength, i.e. 1 in the game, so whereas it could be turned down before, now they've made it weaker and I can't turn it up. So there's simply no way to have both the feel and strength that it had before. I like the feel of low FEI, so turning FEI up to try to compensate for the low strength of effect just makes it feel like high FEI, i.e. really bad. High FEI does let you feel things that you can't at low FEI, so in that sense it can compensate for a lower strength to some extent, but I just don't like that feel of there being something wrong with my wheel that you get with high FEI.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  16. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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  17. Bartje_K77

    Bartje_K77

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    I like it a lot. Changed the ffb settings from Fanatec recommended to the settings from SimRacingGirl though.

    So now I have 5, 5 in-game, and on the wheel all default, with only dri changed to -2 (and brf to 80 because of the loadcell and personal preference: I like to have a big dynamic range on the brakes due to using no ABS).

    Need to do more testing this evening, but right now it feels right about right.

    Maybe this is true, but I dislike oscillations more than I like the 1:1 ratio. I like to think -2 is a good compromise.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2019
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  18. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Sen aut ff100 sho 100 abs off DRI OFF for 100 spr 100 Dpr 100 brf (personal to taste for load cell) FEI 040
    In game 5 and 1 sens
    I’ve been driving the 962 Porsche but I use this for everything in GTS and feels great to me.
    The only change I ever did was turning FEI down to 20 for Brands f1500
    ::shrug:: feels really nice to me same as it’s been, I don’t really ever feel a need to mess with it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  19. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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    I get 0 oscillation.

    My settings:
    In Game 5/10

    Wheel set to mostly standard settings, only changes are.
    FEI 10
    DRI off
    For 70
    FFB 100
    BRF 70

    With this I get perfect steering response, and I’m able to make tiny corrections mid corner for oversteer or large corrections if needed lol. It drives just like a real car, the oversteer is very very natural.

    Sounds like the update means I can raise my FEI setting so I’ll report back once I can test.


    Why 1 for sensitivity?
     
  20. Beezer215

    Beezer215

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    The sensitivity setting isn't what you think it is. It seems that the higher you turn it up, the more weight on the wheel in general from turning the steering wheel. If you turn it to 1 and adjust overall gain up a notch or two, you seem to get more road detail instead of just trying to turn a semi with no power steering. Road detail (what there is of it) and kerbs are still present throughout the setting range 1-10.
     
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  21. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Pretty much this is my take also on in game.
    I had t300 for a long time and sens doesn’t do what you might expect intuitively.
    All I know is my wheel feels great with those settings I put up.
    Maybe if someone is having issues they might try that and like it also.
    Fanatec says in their documentation what the settings do. It can be hard to find. My settings are basically the default with only the load cell dri and FEI being adjusted.
    I know it literally makes no sense intuitively to set sens in game to 1 but it works great.
     
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  22. breeminator

    breeminator

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    756
    I've managed to get it feeling acceptable by increasing For to 110 and FEI to 80, in-game settings 1/1. It feels different to before, but I think I can get used to how it feels with those settings.
     
  23. Bartje_K77

    Bartje_K77

    Messages:
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    Ah, you've set FEI to 10. That's also a way to lose the oscillation caused by DRI 0. But to me any FEI setting below 40 makes the ffb feel a bit dull.

    Fanatec states that you should always start at FEI 100 and work your way down to whatever feels comfortable to you. For you, before the GT Sport 1.50 update, it was 10. I get that.

    Happy testing with higher FEI values. It should make your wheel feel more lively but with DRI set to 0 it could also introduce oscillation. I would love to know your findings. Maybe I'm wrong about this.
     
  24. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    I don’t understand, people have there settings making the wheel oscillate? What settings cause that lol?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  25. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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    FEI has nothing to do with oscillation for me. Going FEI 10-20 is my max, past that and you get the stupid understeer rattle effect that completely destroys the steering.

    I can run higher FEI without oscillation, and yes it adds weight, but the rattle/mechanical play that gets added makes it useless. That’s completely unrealistic. Thankfully it sounds like the new update has reduced this issue and I can turn FEI up

    Fanatec’s recommended settings for GTS/Fanatec are garbage. They suggest FEI 40 with DRI set to -3 which is hilariously bad. I would far rather have accuracy with steering and precise feel than a little extra weight. Plus in game sen of 1 makes it even worse.

    The problem I have. I have very very fast hands which allows me to apply large corrections very quickly, and with DRI set to anything other than off this messes me up as it can’t keep up with me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  26. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Man, what firmware is in your wheel? Mine says 335 after the initial cal, and I’ve run FEI 40 dri Off for forever.
    No rattle, times usually top 200 or better on dailies I do.
    If it’s that bad somethings up.
    5-1 dri off FEI 40 everything else 100 works great, I also have fast hands. I don’t get it it has to be FW version. I feel everything really well.
     
  27. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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    I have the latest FW. New wheel also, my wheel was replaced under warranty, separate issue, and exhibited the same issue past 20 FEI. I’m really sensitive on feel and at FEI 30 I don’t get the crazy rattle BUT I can feel it very faintly starting and that’s enough to dull my feel for everything else.

    This is a big issue on corner entry at the limit, especially if I’m running a lot of rear brake bias to rotate the car.

    I’m also running in game sen at 10 not 1. That could be the cause. But I’ll stay at 10 because I prefer the extra feel I get.
     
  28. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Wait you have in game 5-10?
    Dri off FEI 10
    I will try that out, absolutely insane to think you are getting fronts scrubbing with bb to rear, but I suspect clipping at 5-10.
    I gotta try this out.

    OMFG those settings are undrivable. The car doesn’t steer, and not only that the wheel buzzes in the menu.
    on my wheel it barely steers. I literally think it’s somehow clipping everything including ability to turn the car OFF with that.
    Doesn’t work at all.
    Man, you gotta have some kinda firmware messup or something. No one could possibly drive anything like that. I’d call Fanatec.
    I just tried custom race matching the daily I was doing, as soon as the auto drive let go I was like WTF.
    I think you must have severe technical problems with the wheel. That’s NOT right.
    100 everything FEI 40 dri off in game 5-1 for me.
    5-10 for and spring at those numbers doesn’t even work on mine. Contact Fanatec would be my advice.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  29. Deadpool

    Deadpool

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    That’s really confusing. Mine drives near PERFECT at these settings. I’m setting top 20 times in time trial with these settings.

    My settings.

    Game FFB 5, Sen 10

    Wheel
    Sen Auto
    FFB 100
    Brf 70
    FEI 10-20
    DRI off
    Sho 100
    For 70
    Spr 100
    Dpr 100
    ABS 98

    With these settings and the newest FW on the CSL Elite PS4, it’s fantastic. I get a lot of information on what the cars doing. I think the issue is you’re on a older FW.

    It’s def not a issue with my wheel. My previous wheel used the exact same settings. It’s actually possible.....your wheel is messed up. Because mine went bad and these settings match your “OMFG” response lol, and Fanatec decided my wheel was unrepairable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  30. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    1,453
    @Deadpool
    Yeah, I’m not screwing with fw. I like mine the way it is. With those settings my wheel literally feels nothing and steering seems damped out like everything is clipped out completely, undrivable.
    No offense, but no way I would think of following those settings after feeling it when autodrive let go.
    Broken.
    I dunno, mines a PS4 and everything, no idea how a person could even complete a lap with it that broken.
    I wish we could put both our wheels next to each other and try them.
    I just can’t imagine a Fanatec getting so broken by those settings.

    Is there anyone else that can set their wheel to that? If it’s like mine you’ll know it’s broken as soon as autodrive lets go.
    If it’s like his, maybe it works, I can’t see it, but curious for someone else to try it, for me it breaks the game. I’d be contacting tech support immediately if that’s the best I got...
    I had a fella with issues with his settings on a team chat, and I said try mine, next thing you know he thanked me and posted a podium result. I know my settings work great on my wheel.
    I know what t300 feels like too because I owned that prior to this and it’s well optimized for gt sport so I already knew what information was in the ffb before I ever was lucky enough to try a Fanatec.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019