Understeer Rattle Effect (Poll-Only for Wheel Users)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by super_gt, Apr 1, 2018.

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What do you think about the understeer rattle effect ?

  1. I like this strong rattle effect and I do not want to be changed.

    18.9%
  2. I like this rattle effect but I want to be weakened.

    12.5%
  3. I do not like this rattle effect and I want to be completely removed.

    13.9%
  4. I have no opinion.

    10.0%
  5. I would like to have an option to adjust the strength of this effect or turn it off.

    44.8%
  1. VBR

    VBR Premium

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    HEY POLYPHONY DIGITAL!!!


    UV Poll.jpg

    THIS!!! FOR THE LOVE OF SIM-RACING, THIS!!!


    :banghead: :boggled: :censored: :confused: :crazy: :dunce: :eek: :( :sick: :irked: :mad: :nervous: :odd: :ouch: :rolleyes: :scared: :tdown: :yuck: :grumpy:




    Meanwhile, in Assetto Corsa...

    AC FFB Options.png

    :D :bowdown: :cheers: :cool: :dopey: :drool: :idea: :lol: :sly: :) :tup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  2. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    I’m glad to see that you changed the thread title from oversteer rattle effect to understeer rattle effect.
    Explaining understeer was like pulling teeth.
    Ffb on Fanatec is perfect. No issue here.
    Maybe it’s a g29 gear drive thing?
     
  3. super_gt

    super_gt

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    The title of the thread has never been about oversteer and it has never been changed.;)
     
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  4. Knukel

    Knukel

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    Absolute BS.
     
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  5. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    You know, I believe you may be correct.
    It was the previous thread maybe that I spent pages explaining understeer to the OP.
    Finally he relented and this thread title was created.
    So I stand corrected.

    See above.
    T300 and csl is what I have used. T300 ffb was perfect.
    CSL I run will rattle excessively if you crank up FEI setting.
    I personally run 5 1 in game. DRI off FEI 20 and it’s lovely.
    So again I forgot that the previous thread where the OP was where he mistakenly thought he was getting an effect from oversteer.
    At any rate glad to see the OP finally was able to comprehend the meaning of terms that’s all.

    To OP

    Where’s the option in your poll for

    ‘I like the way ffb works in GTS?’
     
  6. super_gt

    super_gt

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    It would not be bad if you visit the OP post in this thread.
    The first option in the poll:
    "I like this strong rattle effect and I do not want to be changed"
    is exactly for this.
     
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  7. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    So you don’t have the game?
    That explains it.
    This whole thing is a complete misconception.
    My comments are primarily directed @VBR.
    Why make poll on game you don’t have?

    Further why would I answer in the affirmative to a question which presupposes the existence of an issue I do not experience?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  8. super_gt

    super_gt

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    You don't experience it because your FEI is 20 to avoid rattle, but with so low FEI you lose FFB force feedback fidelity. I know this because I have CSL Elite.
    With T300 is not a rattle but a vibration which is unpleasant and unrealistic, I've played GTS with T300.
    Many people complained, so I made this thread.
    By the way, see how Fanatec official representatives has voted for this rattle problem which according to you is "a complete misconception":

    3.png 4.png
     
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  9. Shingo_civic

    Shingo_civic

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    Is there any way to show to PD this poll?
    Also it would be nice to make another poll about the excessive understeer after the 1.39 update (if I'm not mistaken) and the very little spring return when you go over curbs and road bumps in the game
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  10. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Well I used t300 for quite some time. Coming from a lifetime of driving with no experience with ffb prior to this game.
    T300 does not rattle. In fact when I first drove rs01 gr3 and goofed around with braking I knew instantly when fronts locked under too much trail brake.
    Further it’s not a rattle with that wheel, further for someone with driving experience it was not a mystery to me what ai felt when overloading the front tires.
    I came on here and people were referring to the effect as oversteer rumble which imo is a very big misconception.
    I was largely responsible for explaining to people what was happening when they were busy multiquoting me telling me I was incorrect.
    Lol
    Now I moved on to Fanatec. The ffb capabilities are much more direct than t300.
    So yes obviously if you max FEI given that the games output was setup for Thrustmaster then csl elite rattles excessively when you overload the fronts.
    The misconception you put up is that if you turn FEI down from max you lose fidelity.
    I disagree. If you have a much more direct and responsive capability within the wheel you need less input from the game to see ffb effect you can feel.
    Why would you turn gain up to ridiculous levels?
    It’s not what the number is that matters it’s what effects you feel.
    Increasing gain in the wheel increases an effect put in for less responsive wheel tech from tm wheel.
    So lose fidelity? No. Try it. Oh wait you said you don’t have the game.
    Fanatec compared to t300 in other games is BIG difference.
    T300 is muted in comparison or dulled if you will.
    Just because a gain setting can go higher doesn’t mean more fidelityits just higher gain.
    I think t300 has excellent informative smooth response in gts.
    The experience of using it is great.
    Fanatec is also great but in my opinion sharper and quicker and inherently has more fidelity.
    So much so that in order to get the best performance in gts you might wanna decrease the gain.
    Gts ffb is subtle but quite nuanced. People complain because it doesn’t have exaggerated surface chatter like many games.
    Gts ffb is tire grip cars balance and weight distribution. Imo it’s really good.
    I chose t300 over g29 because I wanted to experience what was intended by the developers.
    Honestly I initially corrected the misconception that a persons wheel was vibrating from OVERSTEER because I am a nice guy.
    My ideas were attacked and it pissed me off.
    Again increasing gain too much will destabilize a system working correctly.
    It’s not always turning things up to max is best.
    These are complex systems.
    But again to your assertion I am losing fidelity, I know what the game feels like on both.
    People in general tend to have a hard time with technical matters and I’m good with that stuff and like to offer help to folks.
    That fidelity comment was another one made out of ignorance which is fact because as you said you don’t even have the game.
    Turning up gain too high results in instability, not best performance.
    Some people on here would complain if I gave them a hundred dollars for many months crying because it should have been euros.
    It’s poisonous.
     
  11. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    The T300 most certainly does rattle (or as some prefer to describe it shake ir vibrate) at the onset of understeer.

    Some may like it, others don't. Its not however even close to what should be happening if realism is the aim.
     
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  12. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    I used one for a long time and It didn’t do what I would refer to as rattle. If your fronts are pushing, what happens is gonna be different depending on a lot of factors like track surface cars weight distribution, driver input etc.
    I mean I haven’t driven t300 since several updates back so maybe it rattles now. Mine never rattled. I got a sense of the tires releasing grip, lightening in the torque, some vibration maybe if my steering angle was WAY too much or something. I wouldn’t say it rattled though.
    I mean for me, it’s all about the information being transmitted to me about the key parameters I am interested in to control the car.
    Personally I dunno if we have similar desires with regard to sim in general.
    I know you want max realism.
    For me, I want maximum control of the vehicle by feel combined with immersion, whether that’s a 1 to 1 relationship to for example driving a race prepped rs01 irl at SPA doesn’t really matter to me.
    Perhaps if one measured all the forces on the wheel in the actual car while lapping they could determine what’s ‘more’ real, because then you could measure the sim wheel and compare objectively.
    As far as what one driver vs another thinks is more real or prefers in a game, that’s up for debate. Real racing drivers opinions vary wildly, so it’s not surprising that differing opinions exist here on this forum.
    Opinion is different from actual forces being measured and compared.
    For comparison objectively things must be measured scientifically not by seat of pants or wall of text methods.
     
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  13. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I've had the rattle or shake pretty much since day 1 with a T300, it's come and gone across a number of updates, but the majority of the time it's been in the title. Occurring at the onset of understeer.

    I can also say that it objectively shouldn't happen, the fundamentals of tyre physics are quite straightforward in that regard (and I've posted the detail behind that a number of times).

    I've no issue if people prefer it, that's fine, but I do take issue with it being described as accurate in terms of tyre physics.
     
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  14. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Maybe there’s data out there about what kind of vibration is translated from the tire to steering rack and into the steering when the steering angle is too great and the tires are overloaded on a given track surface and there’s understeer in a given car.
    Maybe they have objective scientific measurements about what the forces are on the wheel. I haven’t searched but I bet the data is out there.
    Without data it’s just a matter of opinion.
    Tbh the game is very very effective at relating the tire characteristic of a progressively loaded tire achieving a higher limit of grip.
    I’ve really been noticing lately the value of turning in very progressively, espescially on faster corners.
    It’s very easy to use more steering angle than is needed.
    I will judge what’s what when I see data.
    I can only say that even NEVER HAVING DRIVEN A FFB BEFORE that whatever the ffb was on the t300 it was readily apparent when I overloaded the front tires.
    So to me, that’s a good game.
    Intuitive.
    Ok so I have a lot of real driving experience and I am lucky that way.
    For me describing the effect like a toggle on/off vibration employed at understeer condition or rattle seems inaccurate to my experience.
    What we get in GTS is a function of what we do to GTS imo.
    People seem to think tire wear is a function of what car you drive too, which I will admit, there is a DEGREE of that, but I have found that it’s much more complex.
    I even posted results from the 11x tire wear race at Interlagos where people said my tire wear after eleven laps looked like theirs after 3.
    And, my times were faster, so it’s not as if I am being daft.
    For me it’s just give thought to the game.
    It’s my opinion that because of past titles the game is sometimes not given a fair shake. People look at it as oooh it’s gt it’s arcade, but to me since this is my first title, I vehemently disagree and it’s proved because those same folks can’t jump in and match good times.
    I’ve played everything on PS4 driving. I like all titles, they are all unique and fun depending on mood or preference.
    I don’t mean to imply any of your postings are made in a slanted fashion. I have seen your comment and you call it like you see it and I like the content you have produced.
    My points are more directed towards the negative folks who constantly complain.
    I will say, in this game, it’s very very touchy about the combination of braking, steering, and throttle and shifting in order to be fast.
    The skill ceiling is quite high. I enjoy all the diving games at times. I love Motorsport.
    I think all subjects can be discussed objectively if the forces being discussed are measured. Without that it’s kind of a pissing contest, which obviously I enjoy at times, but the actual fact is measurement is what needs to happen.
    I know objective data is out there I just haven’t searched for it.
    I know one thing...

    GTS is highly addictive and great fun, we shouldn’t be bitching about much except the PENALTY SYSTEM.

    PLEASE PD CONTINUE GAME ENHANCEMENTS ON THE PENALTY SYSTEM
     
  15. LeGeNd-1

    LeGeNd-1 Premium

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    Thought I'd post this video explaining forces affecting steering wheel and how things are not so clear cut sometimes because of the multitude of factors. It's not a GT game specific but the basic principles still apply (or at least, it will if PD doesn't have such funny ideas on how FFB should be).

     
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  16. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Does this video contain actual measured data from various cars or is it just discussion from the guy?
     
  17. LeGeNd-1

    LeGeNd-1 Premium

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    It's a discussion of the basic physics of steering forces so it applies to ANY car with a mechanical steering rack.

    Just watch it and you might learn a thing or two :tup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  18. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    I've quite literally taught this subject in the past and already posted data on it, explained the forces involved and done so repeatedly over numerous posts.

    If you wish to debunk or challenge it, then the onus is on you to supply the data.

    Start with how Self Aligning Torque would manage to reverse its path of travel and re distort the contact patch, which is what would be required for a shake or rattle at the onset of understeer. Please use the following (real world data) as the reference.

    SAT vs Slip.jpg

    Explain why the gough plot doesn't vary the self aligning torque value in any manner other that down as greater steering angles are applied (as shown by the increase in slip angle past 3 degrees for this tyre)?

    And just for fun, please detail using the above graph as reference exactly when understeer is occurring (hint - its a two part answer) ?

    Oh and just because you may not want to 'bitch' about a rather clear issue with the FFB model, doesn't mean it's a mandate to ask others to ignore it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
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  19. super_gt

    super_gt

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    I don't know how long you've had the CSL Elite, but in the beginning there wasn't FEI setting. The FEI setting was introduced because people were complaining about the noise which CSL Elite base makes.



    "On one hand the CSL Elite Wheel Bases (CSL E WB, CSL E RW PS4) can reproduce high-dynamic force feedback effects as intense as sent by games/simulations. On the other hand some of you and some reviewers reported that these harsh effects can cause some mechanical noise within the new and extremely direct (single) belt drive system."

    One of the reasons for this noise is due to a small amount of 'play' in the single-belt mechanism.



    I modified my CSL and removed the play in the single belt mechanism which allows me to run higher FEI setting with less noise and those high-dynamic force feedback effects are felt smoother. Fanatec has implemented this spring similar improvement in the the newest versions of the CSL Elite.
    So I will say again that you lose FFB fidelity with so low FEI setting.
     
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  20. breeminator

    breeminator

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    You can't judge the FEI setting in isolation, it depends what in-game settings you use as well. With 1/10 set in the game, FEI 20 gives a LOT of FFB detail. If you increase that 1, it will dull the FFB, and you can then increase FEI and get a similar overall effect.
     
  21. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    We cannot make an objective argument without comparing measured data for a given car on a given track with the sim ffb and the forces in the actual car steering wheel.
    I think real driving is real driving and ffb is ffb. I need information and measured data to discuss objectively.
    I mean I can post information you can post information and we can try to extrapolate what we think should happen, but that’s opinion based not measurement based.
    Find me measured steering wheel data for both an ffb wheel and an in car for the same or very close car track setup tire and laptime.
    Then it wouldn’t be opinion.
    It would be discussion of measured values of data and information.




    I did not have csl prior to the PS4 supported version, further it is also affected by what firmware is loaded into the wheel. I ran my t300 3 10 in game for the most part. 4 4 was default when I got the game. What’s interesting is I noticed when I started my alt account recently default in game went to 5 5.
    Pretty much if you turn FEI up to the point of oscillation (instability) in gt sport it’s as I have said. Gain is too high. Perhaps you can adjust other settings which affect this or limit instability if you like looking at a certain number on the wheel.
    I just followed Fanatec recommendations for settings.
    The same game output signal will render differently through different ffb wheels, maybe not a bunch but it will differ slightly depending on many factors like firmware settings and general electromechanical construction of the device.
    Imo if you apply gain to a signal that’s designed to be optimized with tgt or t300 on a Diff wheel, results may be that you have a way over cooked effect compared to the developers intent.
    I know what the games supposed to translate via the wheel via t300 because I owned that for quite some time.
    Tbh I don’t prefer what I would call noisy or chattery ffb. I want the pertinent data and I don’t prefer ffb that has a bunch of chatter crud masking the i,portent feelings of tire grip and car balance,
    I think in the past some games did well marketing wise by adding a lot of ‘stuff’ rumble etc. Many drivers like that and what do I care?
    I don’t care what they do. But the fact remains if the output signal in a game is setup for a wheel system not in use you may need to lower gain to render the ffb true to developer intent.
    Now, if you wanna increase gain to the point of instability and prefer that and refer to that as ‘fidelity’ than that’s your choice. I don’t care what you choose to do.
    For example the FEI settings I run vary by game dr2 and ac are different. I just used the Fanatec recommended settings and left them alone.
    Different drivers prefer diff things in ffb, that’s a fact. But I can say that the csl works brilliantly in all the games I use. I KNOW what my car is doing at all times. If I lose control my errors are very apparent. It’s not a mystery, and in my view that’s success.
     
  22. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    So that's a no, you're not able to explain it.

    We do not need directly comparative data between the two in order to knower of a reaction is correct or not. You're making a straw man argument in order to avoid addressing the wire straightforward questions I asked.
     
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  23. breeminator

    breeminator

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    I've wondered whether any game maker has done this, as it's really not all that hard to do, certainly no harder than modelling a track, for example. It wouldn't be that hard to instrument a real car, drive it around the track to record data, then adjust the game's models to replicate it as closely as possible. But, if any game maker had done that, you'd think they'd be presenting data to showcase their indisputably realistic FFB, and I haven't seen that.
     
  24. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Me neither, maybe it’s proprietary info or something. Surely thy must have done that. Those values are all known.
     
  25. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Tbh I don’t care to engage in opinion based arguments otherwise known as internet pissing contests. It’s not worth my time.
    Objective data and information, not applied theory.

    Eesh sorry double post.
     
  26. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    How self aligning torque functions isn't opinion based, the physics around it are quite straightforward and it's rather easy to demonstrate if a title is able to recreate these fundamentals.

    Now if we were discussing if title X models it with 100% accuracy then we would need to be comparing identical datasets. However we are not, we are discussing if the fundamental approach PD is using is accurate. I've presented real world data sets that show its not, all I have then done is asked you to use a real world data set to explain what GTS is doing. That doesn't require exact datasets at all.

    Now as to why your stance is a strawman, do you need an exact set of matching datasets to know if a title models power on oversteer? Of course not, you only need those matching datasets to know if the recreation of power oversteer is 100% accurate.
     
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  27. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    Wait a moment, I thought we were discussing ffb, since this thread is about ffb.
    Are we branching into physics as well?
    Tbh, it seems controversy surrounds these topics everywhere in the sim world. For example we can point to the Dirt series.
    I have both dr1 and dr2.
    We see in both these games implementation of ffb done differently and also diff physics. Dr is quite immersive and fun, ffb has an interpretation of the road surface translated into the ffb that’s very immersive.
    Dr2 was developed with either one or two, can’t remember professional real world rally drivers input regarding car behavior and ffb and driving experience.
    Many people complained about the absence of feelings from the original dr on surface feel. I believe you were in that camp as well.
    I personally felt dr2 was great and did not change the suspension ffb level when they came out in response to all the bitching.
    It was interesting to me though the reactions of a vocal portion of the sim community when given a game whose implementation of ffb was largely influenced by real world professional rally driver(s)
    What the wheel feels like in a game is important.
    Discussing game physics is another matter.
    Self aligning torque felt in the steering wheel is going to be affected by many factors including vehicle setup.
    I think a valid approach to predicting what should be felt is to argue the point from the aspect of tires.
    I don’t think though that the best source of that information is a sim racer.
    I think a better approach would be to look at data.
    I’m not going to argue the physics and tire model in GTS is perfect. That would be ridiculous. It’s shown that even they know it’s not perfect, and what are they doing? Going to the MEASURED DATA from Michelin.
    A tire company like Michelin is the best source, that’s what GTS has chosen to employ.
    An OEM with a storied racing history and vast stores of data, perhaps the most in the world.
    I think you have a logical valid approach by trying to extrapolate what should be felt from probably somewhat sound concepts of vehicle and tire physics, but racecars are complicated.
    I respect your views and approach, but for my side, I prefer measured data over extrapolation from concept.
     
  28. breeminator

    breeminator

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    You've shown data on wheel torque vs lateral force. Game FFB routes other information through the wheel, so to show whether it's correct or not would require data from a more fully instrumented car to capture all sources of vibration that can be felt by the driver.
     
  29. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    Given that the FFB model is working with the output of the physics engine how would we not?

    Once again anyone that doesn't agree with you is bitching, it's an odd fall back to take.

    Yes I did have issue with DR2.0 inotisl FFB model, and once again I used data to back that up. Having a professional driver behind a title is no certainty that is going to be good or accurate, unless you wish to extend that logic to Grid and Alonso?

    Answered above.


    FFB and physics are sides of the same coin, and I've already asked you to explain why you belive Self aligning torque would be affected in such a manner as to act counter to the fundamentals of physics. You refused to do so, as such please start to actually support your claims, as for someone who likes to claim to have a data driven approach you are rather light on providing it.

    I've not cited a sim racer? I'm speaking as someone who has over twenty years experience in the Motor industry and has taught vehicle dynamics for a number of OEMs.

    I've cited data from the likes of Milliken and Milliken, which is a quite valid source given the subject at hand.

    You think GTS is the first title to pair with a tyre OEM for data? Quite the opposite, they are late to the party on that one.

    It's that strawman back again, these are not somewhat sound concepts, v these are the actual fundementals of what happens, and once again given that you seem to be attempting to dismiss that fact please do so with some actual data. I've already asked you the questions required for you to do so, yet you refused to answer them. It seems that it's actually time to back up your claims, rather than just dismissing data that has been provided and accusing people of bitching.
     
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  30. Groundfish

    Groundfish Premium

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    My point is simple, if one wishes to make a claim that something in the ffb is incorrect, the best way to do that would be to show measurements from the wheel irl and the corresponding ffb wheel in game.
    Everything else is speculation.
    It may be logical deduction from sound concept, but that is quite different from measured data.
    Also where is the poll option for I like the ffb in game?