Understeer Rattle Effect (Poll-Only for Wheel Users)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by super_gt, Apr 1, 2018.

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What do you think about the understeer rattle effect ?

  1. I like this strong rattle effect and I do not want to be changed.

    18.8%
  2. I like this rattle effect but I want to be weakened.

    12.4%
  3. I do not like this rattle effect and I want to be completely removed.

    13.8%
  4. I have no opinion.

    9.9%
  5. I would like to have an option to adjust the strength of this effect or turn it off.

    45.0%
  1. Bartje_K77

    Bartje_K77

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    47
    And I'm really excited to what Michellin can do to stop this rattle nonsense.
     
  2. Haitauer

    Haitauer

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    1,642
    Location:
    Finland
    From my experience (with t-gt) the rattle happens when one slightly looses grip in front - when front slips to full skid understeer t-gt drops force and wheel goes very light. I assume we get more of this light feel in wet.
     
    fastone371 likes this.
  3. Knukel

    Knukel

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    483
    Temped to try Gr.B cars on wet & i'm hoping that, at least, the 'transition from corner entry understeer to exit oversteer' is smoother - without the rattle disturbing/influencing countersteering.

    Feeling the rear stepping out in a tight corner can be difficult, especially then when using throttle to aid cornering - because there's often slight pushing/scrub before the rear can break traction, enough to cause the effect to kick in; so it can block needed FFB information.

    Don't know how subtle it is on TM & Logitech wheels, but Fanatec feels like driving on a set of sausage curbs in Assetto Corsa. By far the strongest FFB effect in GTS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
    AussieMitch likes this.
  4. breeminator

    breeminator

    Messages:
    752
    I'll admit I'm not the greatest of drivers, I've only twice managed to finish in the EMEA top 100 at the end of a daily race qualifying week. But as far as I've been able to tell, turning the wheel far enough to experience this effect is not optimal and scrubs speed. I've experimented with ignoring the feedback and just steering more, but it seems to make my lap times slower not faster. Is there anyone who regularly finishes a daily race qualifying week in the world top 10 who finds it faster to turn the wheel far enough to frequently experience this rattling effect?

    Related to this, when you watch a replay, you see steering via the red dot, and you will often see this red dot reach the end of the range that it shows. Has anyone worked out the significance of where this end point is? You can steer beyond it, but is it supposed to represent a point of peak grip? I don't want to run the game up at the moment to check, but my feeling is there is more grip beyond the red dot end point, and the limited range it shows stops us from seeing some elements of what the top drivers are doing when we watch their replays.
     
    fastone371 likes this.
  5. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,913
    Still no option to turn this unrealistic nonsense off.


    :banghead: :ouch: :grumpy:
     
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  6. Skinny McLean

    Skinny McLean

    Messages:
    21
    I've come to the same conclusion as breeminator wrt. rumbling and scrubbing speed - the rumbling signifies where the limit of front tire grip is. Cross that limit and you're bleeding speed.

    And the red dot just shows wheel movement. With a properly calibrated wheel the range of the red dot corresponds to moving the wheel from -90 to +90 degrees. You can always go to cockpit view to see how much steering angle is applied in the replays (unless it's one of the few cars without interior, of course.)

    P.S.: While I have had a week on the top ten on my American account, I'm not fast enough to make it a whole week in the EMEA top ten (yet! :))
    P.P.S.: Regarding the poll: While I don't have a problem with the effect, I also don't have a problem with it being configurable. Hence I voted for making it possible to change the effect ourselves.
     
  7. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,913
    Something dawned on me when playing with the pad recently; there's no vibration effect when cars understeer. So, it made me wonder what percentage of DS4 users would want that effect forced on them with no way to turn it off...
     
    AussieMitch likes this.
  8. Saidur_Ali

    Saidur_Ali

    Messages:
    6,425
    I have no opinion myself about this as I have very little experience driving GT Sport with a wheel or reality with similar cars in the game over their limits so can't compare myself.

    I remember @kart.no.38 talking about this effect which he finds realistic, I forgot to post about it back then. Good to see a real racing driver find it realistic. :tup:

     
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  9. Beezer215

    Beezer215

    Messages:
    318
    Location:
    United States
    Realistic?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
    Sure hope my car never does that.
     
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  10. user3392345

    user3392345 (Banned)

    Messages:
    702
    That stupid rattle effect is just a poor try to hide the poor physics/ffb.
    GT-S cant produce a proper effect of understeering because of its weak and limited simulation of everything.
    So it just outputs that rattle effect to tell you you are now over the tyre max grip.
    Its just very very poor and unrealistic, its disgusting.
     
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  11. Beezer215

    Beezer215

    Messages:
    318
    Location:
    United States
    Well let's put it this way, it's so realistic that no other actual SIM on the market has that effect. Not a one.

    My Mustang I used to take to track days never once did that. In fact the opposite would be more realistic. Once you start to loose front wheel traction, the steering wheel will actually get a bit lighter due to the loos of mechanical grip.
     
    VBR likes this.
  12. Shingo_civic

    Shingo_civic

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    85
    Just above you have David Perel that says the opposite,i trust more a real racing driver like him honestly
     
  13. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    23,257
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The laws of physics say it shouldn't happen, I'm going with them.
     
    VBR likes this.
  14. Beezer215

    Beezer215

    Messages:
    318
    Location:
    United States
    I've never driven a GT3 car. Maybe it exerts this behavior, maybe not.
    But lets put that aside and draw attention to the fact that every single car that exists in Gran Turismo Sport world exhibits the same exact vibrating behavior. Every one. And it's no different between car to car. It is merely a blanket effect. Saying that it's "realistic" is a hard sell on that premise alone.
     
    Knukel and Scaff like this.
  15. sundaydriving

    sundaydriving

    Messages:
    687
    For what its worth, and its not worth ****, I think the shudder effect is "real" "enough".
     
  16. Shingo_civic

    Shingo_civic

    Messages:
    85
    So basically you are telling me that @kart.no.38 is not telling the truth... I doubt but ok...
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
    praiano63 likes this.
  17. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,257
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm stating how the physics work during understeer, details of which can be read in thus thread.

    Understeer doesn't cause your steering to shake or rattle, it causes it go light. Now suspension bind and/or tyre hop can cause steering to shake or rattle, but that's a different cause.

    Personally I have no issue if you doubt it, I've personal experience of both on road and track, and have already explained in this thread how the physics work in this situation.

    If you had actually read the thread and my previous posts you would know that it's front wheel skip he's describing.
     
  18. Shingo_civic

    Shingo_civic

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    85
    In his video he is clearly talking about understeer, not wheel skip.
     
  19. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,257
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    He's talking about chronic understeer, at which point front wheel skip may well also occur.

    However feel free to explain the physics of why understeer and the resulting reduction in self aligning torque will cause the steering to shake.

    It's not like I used to teach this stuff....
     
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  20. user3392345

    user3392345 (Banned)

    Messages:
    702
    Let him wait for the rattle effect when he sit in his car while sliding into the trees. Natural Selection :D
     
    Beezer215 likes this.
  21. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,913
    I've only driven a couple of cars on a track day with no rev or speed limits, & I got both of them understeering. I felt absolutely no vibration in the wheel whatsoever in either car. Unrealistic arcade-style effects like this are garbage & should not be in anything claiming to be a sim IMHO. Or, at the very least there should be an option to turn them down & off completely (just like there is in AC with its silly oversteer vibration effect).

    :banghead:

    PD, ignoring fans since ...err...forever!

    :mad:
     
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  22. Saidur_Ali

    Saidur_Ali

    Messages:
    6,425
    How does this effect feel on track Special Stage Route X? Does using different tyres impact feeling like using Comfort Hards on a BMW M4 compared to Comfort Softs and also Racing Softs? Does trying to make suspension softer affect it?
     
  23. PzR Slim

    PzR Slim Premium

    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    England
    Are we really still having this discussion? The lengths some are prepared to go to in embarrassing themselves in defence of the game is mind boggling.
     
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  24. breeminator

    breeminator

    Messages:
    752
    You can turn it down via this setting:
    "Force Feedback Max. Torque
    Adjust the maximum torque. This is an example of force feedback, which communicates information about the road surface to the driver through the tires. The greater this value, the duller the response from the tires when cornering hard."
    If you set that to 10, and adjust the wheel's force feedback strength down to compensate, the understeer effect will be very weak. If you have a Fanatec wheel, setting FEI to off will further dull the effect.
     
    fastone371 likes this.
  25. Deadpool

    Deadpool

    Messages:
    401
    Location:
    United States
    I think anyone who actually likes this rattle need their heads checked.

    I'm running a Fanatec CSL Elite and the rattle is absurdly unrealistic. I've had in game settings ranging from 5-6 on FFB and 1-10 on sensitivity and various settings on the wheel to try and remove it. Without killing the FFB and feel, you are essentially stuck with it and it's a joke. It literally feels like a combo of broken suspension and air in the power steering line. You lose all confidence because you can't anticipate what the wheel will do. Understeer should result in the wheel going light only with maybe a slight slight vibration similar to the ABS setting on Fanatec wheels. That setting is a vibration similar to a phone call but on the wheel vs the ridiculous rattle/knocking effect in use now. Who in their right mind thought this was realistic???? It destroys the immersion.

    This is not a acceptable solution as you then remove the actual FFB you want and have dulled everything else as a bandaid for something unrealistic/wrong.
     
  26. breeminator

    breeminator

    Messages:
    752
    All I can say is it all feels fine to me with a Fanatec CSW 2.5 (via a DriveHub in Fanatec native mode). I've adjusted the settings so that the understeer effect is at what I regard as the best level for it to inform me while driving - not too strong, not too weak. I'd describe it as a slight vibration, like you say it should be, though if you ignore that slight vibration and increase the amount of steering to make the car understeer even more, it will become stronger, but why would anyone want to do that? At the same time, I feel power oversteer and can correct it very quickly. I feel surface bumps, e.g. Nordschleife feels extremely bumpy. I feel kerbs very strongly, I find it very impressive how the 3D shape of the kerb pulls the wheel in the way that you'd expect it to in real life. There's nothing weak about any of those effects, despite me having adjusted the settings to make the understeer effect a gentle vibration at the point of first developing understeer. I'm not saying it's realistic, just that the feel of that gentle vibration as a mechanism for the game to communicate to me that understeer is beginning doesn't cause me any problem.
     
  27. super_gt

    super_gt

    Messages:
    3,984
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    You can't compare CSW V2.5 with CSL Elite. Due to the difference in the drive mechanism the rattle is stronger and noisier with CSL Elite.
     
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  28. Jimmy777

    Jimmy777

    Messages:
    30
    I never understand the rattle effect and i’m affraid they never fix this. This probably has something to do with a deal with Thrustmaster.
     
  29. FPV MIC

    FPV MIC

    Messages:
    1,916
    Why would it when it happens with all wheels? It's far more likely that it's PD's doing. PD even dictated to Thrustmaster the rim size for the T-GT so I doubt they have much say.
     
  30. vvise

    vvise

    Messages:
    677
    Never had this problem. My wheel goes light when I start to understeer and I can feel it get heavy again when the grip comes back. G29 and also I don't have the FFB torque setting set unreasonably high.