Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

[Tornado]

I found it:

I'm curious what his "testing" means for something like the Volvo 240, which had a huge change in PP for 2.10 but still has stats that are very wrong. Surely such a massive adjustment to the PP would have fixed the thing weighing a thousand pounds more than it should if the stats were extrapolated from whatever PP number PD assigned the car.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I don't know why but this thread cheers me up.

Anyway. While I played GT5 and tune some cars, I refuse to tune more. I just don't like the new PP system now, its gone stupid for the FR cars. I REALLY hope PD fixes it, because I feel soo uncomfortable when going online now... >_>

 

[Zuel]

Since the last pp update I tested 500 cars in every form in a step build format. I compiled my information done the best math possible to active the best possible work. Yes through my current testing I find a car of here or the in power 5hp to 15hp difference, weight a difference of a 500 to 1000 pounds pending on car, which is more than expected. The 2.10 update has gotten the power and torque numbers very close as well showing the weakness and strength of a drive train. I found that the tuning method I’m following still classed the cars in, within in one in or out of a Performance Points group that, which is very pleasing as show my work is sound.

As I was trying to get across before which some of you understood, if you want true competition across the board without any cheater cars; banger car or whatever their being called now, properly tune the car (s) to class don’t over tune them. You may be really surprised how much closer the racing will be.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Look, Zuel. The problem is, for proper online racing you either need a room setting providing close racing on it's own or if needed an additional rule (like "roadcars") which must fit into the rooms title. Even if it would work (which I doubt) you can't explain all this in chat to a stranger, you can't even describe it here in full text properly? It's broken.

 

[Zuel]

,for proper online racing you either need a room setting providing close racing on it's own or if needed an additional rule (like "roadcars")

That's the trouble to people think in order to be fast you must find the fastest car (s) at a overly tuned state, instead of tuning a car within class and allowing your DRIVER and TUNING skill show. Yes anyone can overly tune their cars to get the best speed down the straight with in a class of their desire. Get up to the top spots with seat time and understanding the car better in that state. In my opinion which I know will get all of you upset but I really don’t care. If you have to over tune a car detune it just to win, or to think your fast you’re not a skilled driver in my eyes. You’re slow and always will be slow. MY OPINION! Yes people race in controlled rooms but some of in not all those controlled rooms have cars that have been overly tuned then de-tuned to fit within a performance group. I haven’t looked through all the race series but the was that I have looked through follow the format of overly tuning a motor then de-tuning the power to get the best performance at the overly tuned state.

Yes we’re here to have fun and get good computation, there is still a little fun here and there but the computation is out the bloody door unless you want to follow the norm of finding the fastest car and not being the fastest driver. If you’re going to overly tune a car just to get speed down the straight just to pull away from the pack is that racing? No it’s not racing; you’re playing the advantage game which takes no skill at all.


Almost forgot.

If your pissed your pissed I really don't give a flying:censored:. I tried sharing something but some of you are so 🤬 headed. I will still do the testing and sharing my findings while some of you still 🤬 and cry about how the pp system is broken. Which is not its being corrected and in the correct way. But some of you are still blind to this and think you know what the heck your talking about. I myself can say I do know what I talking about because I've done the testing and research within and outside of GT5.

(Com now)

If you like to follow my research and testing you know where you need to go..

 

[analog]

That's the trouble to people think in order to be fast you must find the fastest car (s) at a overly tuned state, instead of tuning a car within class and allowing your DRIVER and TUNING skill show. Yes anyone can overly tune their cars to get the best speed down the straight with in a class of their desire. Get up to the top spots with seat time and understanding the car better in that state. In my opinion which I know will get all of you upset but I really don’t care. If you have to over tune a car detune it just to win, or to think your fast you’re not a skilled driver in my eyes. You’re slow and always will be slow. MY OPINION! Yes people race in controlled rooms but some of in not all those controlled rooms have cars that have been overly tuned then de-tuned to fit within a performance group. I haven’t looked through all the race series but the was that I have looked through follow the format of overly tuning a motor then de-tuning the power to get the best performance at the overly tuned state.

Yes we’re here to have fun and get good computation, there is still a little fun here and there but the computation is out the bloody door unless you want to follow the norm of finding the fastest car and not being the fastest driver. If you’re going to overly tune a car just to get speed down the straight just to pull away from the pack is that racing? No it’s not racing; you’re playing the advantage game which takes no skill at all.

You assume things and think we don't even try to understand you whilst you yourself don't listen to anything that's written which doesn't support your viewpoint (I've actually read what you wrote and concluded you're still not understanding the whole concept of PP, nor tuning).
Ofcourse it's obvious that to compete within a certain level of PP you have to adjust your car accordingly, you seemingly assume we're all lunatics going for the most amount of horsepower and discard all handling aspects.

This was already what most of us did before this update, trying to get a particular car to work best for a particular track within the PP restriction, finding the right balance, the last little nuances which could make the key difference.
That hasn't changed, what's changed is the PP number given to some cars which had a lower or higher number before, for no apparant reason (as apart from a few exceptions the PP mostly already ensured evenly matched races) and resulting in exactly what you mentioned in your last part.
Now people indeed turn up in overpowered cars previously not competitive outside their own genre (classic muscle cars for example) and the racing isn't closer, more realistic nor more fun as a result.

 

[davidmanoy]

What about upgraded boats to 500PP?

 

[Zuel]

You assume things and think we don't even try to understand you whilst you yourself don't listen to anything that's written which doesn't support your viewpoint (I've actually read what you wrote and concluded you're still not understanding the whole concept of PP, nor tuning).
Ofcourse it's obvious that to compete within a certain level of PP you have to adjust your car accordingly, you seemingly assume we're all lunatics going for the most amount of horsepower and discard all handling aspects.

This was already what most of us did before this update, trying to get a particular car to work best for a particular track within the PP restriction, finding the right balance, the last little nuances which could make the key difference.

That hasn't changed, what's changed is the PP number given to some cars which had a lower or higher number before, for no apparant reason (as apart from a few exceptions the PP mostly already ensured evenly matched races) and resulting in exactly what you mentioned in your last part.
Now people indeed turn up in overpowered cars previously not competitive outside their own genre (classic muscle cars for example) and the racing isn't closer, more realistic nor more fun as a result.

You may have some what of a point but to state that I don't understand the pp system and tuning. I understand tuning better than all of you, yes I said it. I also understand the pp better than all of you. I not saying I'm the master but I am saying I do understand it better than all you. My testing will show this in a sound way and then it will be up to you understand and I will put everything in laymen term so it would be better understood.

I've done the same testing method with real world cars and I doing the same here. Not finding any trouble with it at all. Before you state someone doesn't know something or done you better know of that person and their background before you put your:censored: in your mouth.

 

[Tornado]

If your pissed your pissed I really don't give a flying:censored:. I tried sharing something but some of you are so 🤬 headed. I will still do the testing and sharing my findings while some of you still 🤬 and cry about how the pp system is broken. Which is not its being corrected and in the correct way. But some of you are still blind to this and think you know what the heck your talking about. I myself can say I do know what I talking about because I've done the testing and research within and outside of GT5.

No one here is crying or mad except you. Note how you're the one becoming unhinged and sweary in your rants and everyone else is just amused. People have been discussing how to adapt to the PP system as it is now, and what measures need to be taken to adjust to how unbalanced it is.


You, meanwhile, haven't contributed anything to the discussion of how the PP system balanced for several dozen posts now but repeating the same points over and over again in an increasingly condescending way; and the ultimate ace in the hole of "testing" that you had and findings that you are giving apparently amount to nothing more than comparing the horsepower numbers of cars in GT5 to those in real life as if it means anything for the discussion. Saying that the horsepower numbers of a certain car in GT5 is the same as it is in real life isn't a test. It isn't even news, because much like everyone has known about how you needed to properly tune a car to a PP level rather than max it out and chop it down, it's kind of understood by everyone that PD getting the power/torque numbers for a car right is the rule rather than the exception.




No one cares if you're going to flip a table and leave the thread, and it would in fact be preferable to you continuously attacking people and insulting them because they object to the fact that you keep declaring the matter of the PP system settled with absolutely no basis whatsoever to do so; on top of giving people who might actually want to learn things about the PP system and GT5 tuning incorrect advice.

You may have some what of a point but to state that I don't understand the pp system and tuning. I understand tuning better than all of you, yes I said it. I also understand the pp better than all of you. I not saying I'm the master but I am saying I do understand it better than all you.

Good for you. Go understand it better somewhere else and let the people who are actually discussing it discuss it.

 

[Zuel]

No one here is crying or mad except you. Note how you're the one becoming unhinged and sweary in your rants and everyone else is just amused. People have been discussing how to adapt to the PP system as it is now, and what measures need to be taken to adjust to how unbalanced it is.


You, meanwhile, haven't contributed anything to the discussion of how the PP system balanced for several dozen posts now but repeating the same points over and over again in an increasingly condescending way; and the ultimate ace in the hole of "testing" that you had and findings that you are giving apparently amount to nothing more than comparing the horsepower numbers of cars in GT5 to those in real life as if it means anything for the discussion. Saying that the horsepower numbers of a certain car in GT5 is the same as it is in real life isn't a test. It isn't even news, because much like everyone has known about how you needed to properly tune a car to a PP level rather than max it out and chop it down, it's kind of understood by everyone that PD getting the power/torque numbers for a car right is the rule rather than the exception.




No one cares if you're going to flip a table and leave the thread, and it would in fact be preferable to you continuously attacking people and insulting them because they object to the fact that you keep declaring the matter of the PP system settled with absolutely no basis whatsoever to do so; on top of giving people who might actually want to learn things about the PP system and GT5 tuning incorrect advice.

If you want to see what I found just follow my thread. All the cars have been balanced buy decade, car class, drive train and cc of the cars motor. The most important factors are the decades of the car, cc of the motor and drive train. I clearly stated this and proved it.


You best go back and read or follow my thread.

The reason why I stop posting before was due to some of you think headed people saying that the system was broken even with out testing a full broken in car or cars with in the same class. All you was worried about was how the system moved cars around and mad some faster than before. As well how the higher misplacement cars are faster than before. If you really knew or understood TRUE tuning you would be this is common in the real world.

I shared sounds points that was over looked because some of you think or what you think you know about the pp system. I've only seen one or three other people who tried to break down the pp system, everyone else was just tuning their cars to the max then doing the testing. If you feel I was attacking people because the points were over looked so be it that's your opinion.

What really got to me was that you sound people are blind to what has changed and are not taking the true time to see how it has changed. When the pp system change the first time that's when I changed the way I build my cars, not following the norm just to compete. I started tuning as I done in the real world, step/match tuning and testing and I got some the best results.

Let me drop a bomb shell for you the pp system is about to change again, you think your pissed now about just waht until you notice the next change.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

...you better know of that person and their background before you put your:censored: in your mouth.

I am not afraid to say it - FOOT, ah that felt good.

FOOT FOOT FOOT.

Zuel, what is the point of the PP system in GT5? Why is it even in the game?

 

[Tornado]

If you want to see what I found just follow my thread. All the cars have been balanced buy decade, car class, drive train and cc of the cars motor. The most important factors are the decades of the car, cc of the motor and drive train. I clearly stated this and proved it.

You've stated it over and over and over again, but you've done nothing to prove it. I feel like I should also point out that engine displacement is irrelevant to PP calculations, because GT5 doesn't accurately model its effects anyway, but I feel like I would be talking to the wind.

The reason why I stop posting before was due to some of you think headed people saying that the system was broken even with out testing a full broken in car or cars with in the same class.

That is a blatant lie. Several people responded to you with several tests that did exactly that. Once again, you ignored them and went back to throwing around nonsense.

You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.

And you have to know it's not true because you've been told of said tests several times.

If you really knew or understood TRUE tuning you would be this is common in the real world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I shared sounds points that was over looked because some of you think or what you think you know about the pp system. I've only seen one or three other people who tried to break down the pp system, everyone else was just tuning their cars to the max then doing the testing.

Another blatant lie. There were testing results shown for multiple cars where they were tuned to a specific PP and then compared from there rather than just maxed out. Like the tests between the stock VW GTi and the stock Mazda RX-7 where the RX-7 destroyed the Golf despite being down 10+ PP.

What really got to me was that you sound people are blind to what has changed and are not taking the true time to see how it has changed. When the pp system change the first time that's when I changed the way I build my cars, not following the norm just to compete. I started tuning as I done in the real world, step/match tuning and testing and I got some the best results.

And here come the buzzwords again, assigning terms to things that everyone was already doing because that somehow makes it so you are the only one who was aware of this fascinating concept of not excessively using the power limiter to reach a PP limit and instead building a car up to it properly.

Let me drop a bomb shell for you the pp system is about to change again, you think your pissed now about just waht until you notice the next change.

I've done the same testing method with real world cars and I doing the same here. Not finding any trouble with it at all. Before you state someone doesn't know something or done you better know of that person and their background before you put your:censored: in your mouth.

 

[Zuel]

I shouldn't have said all of you, some yes but not all. Though I understand the system better to understand how much of change has been done and it covers the areas I spoke of. Just from this and seeing the numbers there will be another change and I believe it will be to the weight.

I apologize for carring on but when something is right in front clear as day a your unable to see it. Its very irritating, and I wonder why I even try.
I can only see some of the moderates trying, the truest and some of the members of FITT trying.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I shouldn't have said all of you, some yes but not all. Though I understand the system better to understand how much of change has been done and it covers the areas I spoke of. Just from this and seeing the numbers there will be another change and I believe it will be to the weight.

I apologize for carring on but when something is right in front clear as day a your unable to see it. Its very irritating, and I wonder why I even try.
I can only see some of the moderates trying, the truest and some of the members of FITT trying.

Newsflash. The guys at F.I.T.T. aren't trying to prove anything one way or the other. It's a routine tuning contest and because 2.10 is the current version of the game, it's done with 2.10 PP levels.

I've test driven most of the cars in the 450PP class for the F.I.T.T. contest so far. Every single one of them would not have touched my 450PP RX7, RX8 or Lotus Elise before 2.10. After 2.10, every single one of them is faster, from 4 -20 seconds faster. And that's faster than the fastest 2.09 cars, not faster than the same cars were in 2.09. They are as much as 30-35 seconds faster than the same cars were in their 2.09 incarnation. What do they all have in common? They are all FR's and all were nerfed with massive PP reductions in the 2.10 update.

You can also take a look at the Nurb PP Board run by CSL. Same results which I pointed out a month ago to you. Do you need any more proof that the PP system is turned upside down by the latest update? If so, please be specific.

 

[Zuel]

Like I said "Some not all, some"

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

Good grief, you people are still at it. Hope you all get a kick out of it...

 

[CorvetteConquer]

I made a replica of a '13 Boss 302 Mustang......442 pp. WTF.

I am guessing this is just a temporary move for PD. But it's definitely...inconsistent.

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

I am guessing this is just a temporary move for PD.

There's just no way of knowing this, that's what's so infuriating for me. PD are like Pyongyang.

 

[CorvetteConquer]

There's just no way of knowing this, that's what's so infuriating for me. PD are like Pyongyang.

True, which is why I believe the Gran Turismo series is in such a crucial stage of its existence. I feel like GT6 will make or break the future of the series; what a precarious ledge it sits by.

 

[Double-T]

I've brought this up once before but still no responses. What about online Shuffle races? From what I've seen no changes. All cars still perform at the same level as prior 2.1. Am I wrong? Doesn't make sense.

 

[XDesperado67]

I've brought this up once before but still no responses. What about online Shuffle races? From what I've seen no changes. All cars still perform at the same level as prior 2.1. Am I wrong? Doesn't make sense.

The basic performance of cars didn't change. What changed was the PP rating of many FR cars.

 

[Double-T]

Yes but Shuffle is based on PP. Shouldn't the FR cars be suddenly slower since their PP was reduced relative to other cars at the same PP?

 

[maxpontiac]

True, which is why I believe the Gran Turismo series is in such a crucial stage of its existence. I feel like GT6 will make or break the future of the series; what a precarious ledge it sits by.

Wow... what a gross exageration. Gran Turismo as series is anchored to the ground with a foundation structural engineers would be proud over.

The game is still selling and will most likely end up being the 3rd best selling title in the series trailing only GT3 and GT4.

If that statement was for your own person (IE - you will move on), by all means, disregard my post.

 

[XDesperado67]

Yes but Shuffle is based on PP. Shouldn't the FR cars be suddenly slower since their PP was reduced relative to other cars at the same PP?

No they should be comparatively faster than other cars at their new PP.

I don't shuffle race so not sure exactly how it works, but for example if a FR was about average against other cars at 500PP, it may now be dominant against unchanged 450PP cars since it is still as powerful and fast as it was when rated at 500PP.

The affected FR cars had their base PP lowered so the cars they will be pitted against will be lower powered slower cars.

 

[CorvetteConquer]

Wow... what a gross exageration. Gran Turismo as series is anchored to the ground with a foundation structural engineers would be proud over.

The game is still selling and will most likely end up being the 3rd best selling title in the series trailing only GT3 and GT4.

If that statement was for your own person (IE - you will move on), by all means, disregard my post.

I didn't mean to make it appear that the new PP changes = the collapse of the GT series. That would literally be insane.

I meant it from a general standpoint, poking a stick at PD and their GT5 creation. Lots of holes, flaws, honest/ fair complaints, whacky decisions, etc.

YES, GT5 did sell well. But I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of casuals/new comers were turned off by GT5 and will think twice about even considering GT6. If GT6 is a disappointment, what would the future be? How much of the GT base would remain?

But I don't want to stray too far from the thread.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Wow... what a gross exageration. Gran Turismo as series is anchored to the ground with a foundation structural engineers would be proud over.

The game is still selling and will most likely end up being the 3rd best selling title in the series trailing only GT3 and GT4.

If that statement was for your own person (IE - you will move on), by all means, disregard my post.

I don't think it's the big of an exaggeration actually.

GT3 14.9 Million
GT4 11.6 Million
GT5 9 Million

You can bet your life that GT6 is going to cost a lot more dough to develop than GT3 did. With development and marketing costs rising exponentially and revenue falling, sooner or later they are going to intersect and that would be the end of the GT series as you know it. If GT6 follows the trend and only sells 6-6.5 million copies, do you think there will be a GT7?

 

[seanneedscar]

I don't think it's the big of an exaggeration actually.

GT3 14.9 Million
GT4 11.6 Million
GT5 9 Million

You can bet your life that GT6 is going to cost a lot more dough to develop than GT3 did. With development and marketing costs rising exponentially and revenue falling, sooner or later they are going to intersect and that would be the end of the GT series as you know it. If GT6 follows the trend and only sells 6-6.5 million copies, do you think there will be a GT7?

On launch day, PS2 was $299

PS3 on the other hand was $799

The difference in GT5 units sold in my opinion is mostly due to the fact that, not as many people have PS3's man. Theyre effing expensive

Also you arent taking into account DLC. PD Is making a killing on DLC I can only speculate.

DLC is the future of gaming. People play games for years and years. So why stick to a single 50 dollar profit when you can release tidbits here and there eventually adding up to, and surpassing the cost of the game itself. Genius.

GT aint going anywhere

 

[TokoTurismo]

I don't think it's the big of an exaggeration actually.

GT3 14.9 Million
GT4 11.6 Million
GT5 9 Million

You can bet your life that GT6 is going to cost a lot more dough to develop than GT3 did. With development and marketing costs rising exponentially and revenue falling, sooner or later they are going to intersect and that would be the end of the GT series as you know it. If GT6 follows the trend and only sells 6-6.5 million copies, do you think there will be a GT7?

Pfff, POLEEEASE @Johnnypenso.... End of GT? HA! Don't make me laugh.. Just because GT5 sold 9 mill... Seriously dude? Maybe because the PS3 was (like @seanneedscar said), was to expensive at the time...

Do stay on topic thank you very much... U_U

 

[Steph290]

Here I thought Analog and I left this thread on a good note back on page 34. Come back a few days later to see Zuel is at it again. But I must say, Johnny, Des, Analog, Toronado, and Chrunch, you guys have a helluva lot of patience with this dude. I mean, I love a good debate, but some sort of intelligence must be expected. I look at his statements and I just don't have the heart to go at it again. Also, here's hoping this weeks update sheds some light or even a fix on the pp issue. Till then

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Here I thought Analog and I left this thread on a good note back on page 34. Come back a few days later to see Zuel is at it again. But I must say, Johnny, Des, Analog, Toronado, and Chrunch, you guys have a helluva lot of patience with this dude. I mean, I love a good debate, but some sort of intelligence must be expected. I look at his statements and I just don't have the heart to go at it again. Also, here's hoping this weeks update sheds some light or even a fix on the pp issue. Till then
[snip pic]

Personally, I find Zuel to be a little entertaining. Much of what he says looks like a bad Google translation from some obscure South Pacific language. I don’t think many people take him seriously.

Keep up the good work Zuel! 👍

Zuel is right about one thing though.

[Wait, Wut?]

It is not the PP system that is broken.
It is just those couple of hundred-plus FR cars and the RUF 3400s.

It makes no difference what is broken though. The fact remains you can’t set up a 425pp lobby and expect people to choose from a large variety of cars the way it is now. They will all go for those FR cars that had their PPs dropped.

Banning these broken cars seems to be the only way to go for the time being. I sure hope one of these upcoming updates fixes this.