Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

[dazdilly75]

Looks like you just got called out Des...lol. Everyone was quite reasonable and patient with Zuel but when it became obvious after dozens of responses back and forth that he wasn't making any sense and wasn't listening to anyone, well this is what inevitably happens. People logically laid out their case for Zuel in great detail and he ignored them for the most part. If you are going to put a theory out there you're going to be asked to explain it and prove it and Zuel did neither. Zuel's answer is, "you prove it", and when he was referred to charts and tables and facts and figures he just ignored them.

Des hasn't got anything to say dude. The guy is an online theorist end of story. You won't find me giving suggestions on here anymore. The atmosphere is one of hostility and keyboard warriorism. People that like to tell others they are wrong just for the sake it. ( I guess they think it makes them look smarter to discount things they have not figured out themselves) I've been playing Gran turismo since play station 1. There is nothing you can tell me about this game or any previous gt title that I don't already know. Or can't figure out myself.

 

[dazdilly75]

Zuel repeating incorrect statements (in some cases very obviously so) or bringing up information that has nothing to do with his point but using it as proof page after page after page and going out of his way to ignore the problems people point out with what he keeps saying doesn't suddenly become "You were all marginalizing him just because he was saying something different" simply because you also weren't paying attention to what people in the thread have been saying.



Ah. The "You'll just have to deal with it and stop complaining" rebuttal. From what I've seen, adapting at this point seems to be banning FR cars from low PP rooms. Is that the kind of adaptation that you want to see this late in GT5's life?



As if it wasn't clear already that you haven't been following the thread closely enough to comment. You are at least aware that for cars with low enough PP, an FR car that handled well and could hold its own against MR and AWD cars before the update is now going to be a lot faster at that PP, right? And that you don't have to be using RS tires to realize it?

Lol I've been following the thread and it amuses me. RS tyres make the issue much worse with uneven performance between the drive trains. Don't try your condescending tone fella your not teaching me anything.

 

[XDesperado67]

Lol I've been following the thread and it amuses me. RS tyres make the issue much worse with uneven performance between the drive trains. Don't try your condescending tone fella your not teaching me anything.

Obviously you haven't been following this thread. If you had been, you would have seen that I rarely use racing tires except for race cars. As for power limiter I will only use the minimum required to meet a given PP. (Generally less than 5% as more than that tends to cost HP)
Now on your theory of weight and it's distribution determining how much the PP was lowered on cars...look at post #307 in this thread! Not my work creating that listing but you'll find all types of cars have had their PP drastically altered irrespective of the cars weight and it's distribution.

The number of different GT games and how long you have played them for is irrelevant to this discussion so get over it. As for your suggestion that I'm an online theorist, I unlike yourself haven't offered any theories, I've merely stated my opinion that it is broken and show some examples of how that is so.

Not sure why you decided to come after me but I guess a troll has to do what a troll has to do.

 

[Tornado]

Lol I've been following the thread and it amuses me.

Obviously not very well if you think it just boils down to people complaining that their RS rooms are ruined now. Since, you know, there are cars that were already very good online in speed and handling have only been made better by the patch and all. Of which there were examples given detailing the changes. Which you apparently were aware of, yet are purposely ignorant to.


Huh.

Don't try your condescending tone fella your not teaching me anything.

Of course no one is teaching you anything. After all, you've played GT games since the PSX, which obviously makes you more important then everyone else in this thread who actually is giving reasons for why the stuff Zuel was saying was wrong even though you haven't actually said anything of substance in this thread yet. I mean, everyone else with a vested interest in the PP system has only... also probably have been playing GT games since the PSX...


Huh.

 

[dazdilly75]

Obviously you haven't been following this thread. If you had been, you would have seen that I rarely use racing tires except for race cars. As for power limiter I will only use the minimum required to meet a given PP. (Generally less than 5% as more than that tends to cost HP)
Now on your theory of weight and it's distribution determining how much the PP was lowered on cars...look at post #307 in this thread! Not my work creating that listing but you'll find all types of cars have had their PP drastically altered irrespective of the cars weight and it's distribution.

The number of different GT games and how long you have played them for is irrelevant to this discussion so get over it. As for your suggestion that I'm an online theorist, I unlike yourself haven't offered any theories, I've merely stated my opinion that it is broken and show some examples of how that is so.

Not sure why you decided to come after me but I guess a troll has to do what a troll has to do.

Sorry desperado but most of your post is regurgitation of obvious points. The pp system is broken but you offer no theories just 'opinions' (your words) this is the problem with posters like yourself. Nothing constructive to say but like to put everyone else's theories to waste. My initial post stated that FR cars
(road cars in particular) had a bigger PP decrease if they conformed to a combo of age, weight distribution and age. Initially this was what I found to be true yes maybe not exactly correct but definitely a common factor in the new pp rules. Your reply was... Trash my formula as that was where I got it from.... Lol yet you call me the troll. As for playing gt since its early days I think It's very relevant in understanding the evolution this game has made in becoming the title it is today. I made a mistake in calling you an online theorist as I gave you way too much credit. Cheers to you too mate!

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

You really can't have read the thread though, as you will have seen that most of the people commenting do not use racing tyres, throwing out that theory as well. You would have also noticed that most of the user's here from their posts across GTP that they do not use racing tyres.

None of it boils down to "Oh my leet car is rubbish now", no one cares which cars are fast or not, it's the fact that the PP system has created a lot of inequality. It's supposed to create a level playing field no matter the vehicle, not landslide victories.

 

[dazdilly75]

You really can't have read the thread though, as you will have seen that most of the people commenting do not use racing tyres, throwing out that theory as well. You would have also noticed that most of the user's here from their posts across GTP that they do not use racing tyres.

None of it boils down to "Oh my leet car is rubbish now", no one cares which cars are fast or not, it's the fact that the PP system has created a lot of inequality. It's supposed to create a level playing field no matter the vehicle, not landslide victories.

Lewis with all due respect the PP system was never and is never going to be fair.
I look at it as an era. There was a time when MR pretty much dominated. Now FR dominates. Is it unfair? Depends how you look at it. If there are a bunch of cars sitting in your garage gathering dust because they were not competitive per 2.10 then you will welcome this change.

There are so many ways to make rooms more equal, fast tyre wear is certainly one way and tyre choice as mentioned previously is another. Instead of going over old ground (by stating the pp system is now broken) there are a number of solutions to make it better for yourself. Use the current goto cars and monopolise on the new pp changes or run your rooms in a different way. Evolve with the game.

 

[GBRC tyrrell]

In fairness, who's going to take the time and trouble to read through 29 pages of...all this, whatever you call it (I'll call it WASTE).

Anyone know of anyone who has actually made contact with PD/Kaz about this issue (and more importantly got a response)?

 

[Johnnypenso]

The facts are the game has changed if you like it or not. Those that are able to adapt will do so. Those that are unable to adapt will complain constantly. If people actually Ran SH to SS tyre rooms you would soon find that more horsepower does not always equal the fastest car. There are a lot of RS tyre racers complaining because they can't dominate in their Elise, Nsx or Csl anymore. I'll shed a tear for you as i pass you in my XFR jag.

As I have referenced a number of times, tires are not an equalizing factor when it comes to the new PP model. The Nurb PP Board in the Tuning forum is proof of that. Best times have fallen by 15 or 20 seconds in some cases and that's on CM to SS tires and everything in between. I spent quite a bit of time tuning the best cars in the game for the 400-550 PP range and the times I achieved and the tunes along with them are now obsolete.

Des hasn't got anything to say dude. The guy is an online theorist end of story. You won't find me giving suggestions on here anymore. The atmosphere is one of hostility and keyboard warriorism. People that like to tell others they are wrong just for the sake it. ( I guess they think it makes them look smarter to discount things they have not figured out themselves) I've been playing Gran turismo since play station 1. There is nothing you can tell me about this game or any previous gt title that I don't already know. Or can't figure out myself.

Haha...I daresay Des has forgotten more about tuning and the minutae of tuning and GT5 physics, than 99% of GT5er's will ever know. In case you don't know this, this is a discussion board. Disagreement is the norm, it's expected, that's what we do here. Criticizing someone for doing what they are supposed to do doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[dazdilly75]

As I have referenced a number of times, tires are not an equalizing factor when it comes to the new PP model. The Nurb PP Board in the Tuning forum is proof of that. Best times have fallen by 15 or 20 seconds in some cases and that's on CM to SS tires and everything in between. I spent quite a bit of time tuning the best cars in the game for the 400-550 PP range and the times I achieved and the tunes along with them are now obsolete.



Haha...I daresay Des has forgotten more about tuning and the minutae of tuning and GT5 physics, than 99% of GT5er's will ever know. In case you don't know this, this is a discussion board. Disagreement is the norm, it's expected, that's what we do here. Criticizing someone for doing what they are supposed to do doesn't make any sense to me.

Lol criticism is easy. Disagreeing is even easier. Offering a solution or constructive criticism is not so easy.👍

Like I said my initial post was to help the community in finding the best car for the decreased pp change. If it didn't apply to 'des' then don't reply to me simple. Someone might not have known what cars to look for and found my post useful.

As for desperados tuning credentials, good for him.

 

[Lion-Face]

No I haven't tested an RX-8, but if you look at post #307 of this thread you'll see the change in PP for many cars. The RX-8s only went down 6 or 7PP, the S2Ks had about the same reduction. Meanwhile the SSR dropped by 48.

Now a 15-20PP change would have most likely been enough to equalize the SSR with the other 2 making for very close races but instead with that much extra PP to play with the S2Ks and RX-8s just can't keep up.

Why don't you test them before you complain the system is broken? Sure 6pp isn't much on paper, but it could play out differently in practice.

There was talk about a physics change with 2.10. Also, tuning an F40 the other night, as I was taking parts on and off, I believe the PP numbers were changing differently to how they were before the patch. Some parts weren't jumping up in PP how I expected them to having raced the F40 for some time. Could be wrong, but could be something there.

I'm just saying that the 6pp change for the RX8 may be all it required, and your not going to know unless you test it. I find it a bit foolish to jump on PD for a change because Car X was fast before the update, Car Y is faster after the update but I haven't retested Car X to see what effect the changes have had on it.

 

[XDesperado67]

@Lion-Face have you been reading the entire thread? I gave examples of cars that had seriously broken PP much earlier in the thread. My discussion of the SSR was not offered as hard proof but as an example of how I felt this update has gone wrong.
While even before the update there was a lot of variation in lap times on the Nordschleife, making up a 10second deficit by adding 6PP is nearly impossible I'd say.
Also your forgetting about all the other cars that saw no increase in PP.

Finally I ran the SSR as part of my testing to find what car I was going to work on fine tuning for the current F.I.T.T. shootout. So far I've found at least 3 cars that are at least as fast as the SSR. One of those was at least 4 seconds faster than the SSR for me...on its first lap with very basic test settings on the car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why don't you test them before you complain the system is broken? Sure 6pp isn't much on paper, but it could play out differently in practice.

There was talk about a physics change with 2.10. Also, tuning an F40 the other night, as I was taking parts on and off, I believe the PP numbers were changing differently to how they were before the patch. Some parts weren't jumping up in PP how I expected them to having raced the F40 for some time. Could be wrong, but could be something there.

I'm just saying that the 6pp change for the RX8 may be all it required, and your not going to know unless you test it. I find it a bit foolish to jump on PD for a change because Car X was fast before the update, Car Y is faster after the update but I haven't retested Car X to see what effect the changes have had on it.

6PP does not equal 15 seconds. The 2.09 gap between 400CS>>450SH and 450SH>>500SM at Nurb was about 30 seconds. That translates to 1PP=0.6 seconds and that's without taking into account the tire upgrade. I'd say 1PP is less than 0.3 seconds without the tire upgrade. The RX8 will gain 2 seconds at best, likely closer to 1 second.

 

[Lion-Face]

@Lion-Face have you been reading the entire thread? I gave examples of cars that had seriously broken PP much earlier in the thread. My discussion of the SSR was not offered as hard proof but as an example of how I felt this update has gone wrong.
While even before the update there was a lot of variation in lap times on the Nordschleife, making up a 10second deficit by adding 6PP is nearly impossible I'd say.
Also your forgetting about all the other cars that saw no increase in PP.

You mean the test done with a FF, FR, MR and 4WD at various PP levels around Deep Forest? That was also conclusive.

I'm not forgetting anything, I'm not the one claiming that the 2.10 update is broken without testing the cars your pitching against each other at the same PP within the same patch.

Once again with the F40, it was 522pp before patch, 520 afterwards. 2pp isn't much, and before 2.10 it couldn't keep up with the faster cars. But after patch 2.10, I had some great close races with it against various other cars, the likes of an NSX and BMW which it wouldn't have kept pace with prior. I know that's not conclusive, and 2pp doesn't equal 2 seconds per lap which it was losing against the fastest cars patch 2.09, but now I feel it can be more competitive against a wider range of cars.

6PP does not equal 15 seconds. The 2.09 gap between 400CS>>450SH and 450SH>>500SM at Nurb was about 30 seconds. That translates to 1PP=0.6 seconds and that's without taking into account the tire upgrade. I'd say 1PP is less than 0.3 seconds without the tire upgrade. The RX8 will gain 2 seconds at best, likely closer to 1 second.

That's fine, do it. Prove it. There has been a lot of jumping up and down about the PP changes being broken but no 1:1 testing in a closed environment. After 20+ pages, I haven't seen a fair test put forward with solid results. Most of the naysayers are happy with saying Car X has 200HP more than Car Y therefore 2.10 = Broken meow meow meow. It may well be broken, but I havn't seen a practical test to prove it.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

@ Lion-Face, you can test til you're blue in the face it isn't going to change the fact that the 2.10 update screwed up the game.

It seems pretty obvious you don't get online much. If you did you would have realized right away something was wrong.

I knew in the first online race after the update that the pp system had been whacked. I didn't need some pointless test.

Check this post, #307, it has the list of affected cars.

 

[Mulan]

I start to see what PD did. They may actually have done the PP right in a sim way of seeing it. But since the rest of the game isnt that accurate it makes some cars to strong that in real life wouldnt if you put in all that extra upgrades that are possible in the game. So PP seems correct but the rest of the game is not so accurate to allow such accurate PP system. PD has to go in and finetune some cars regarding PP...actually they could go in and finetune many other stuff too Category of cartypes, more filteroptions and so on can do alot. But even better tyresimulation and other carhandling stuff could be done better since there is actually more wrong there than the PP system. Allowing so many upgrades and so much power for some cars should be not allowed. So altering PP or are they gonna alter the cars? I hope they go for the cars if the new PP system is correct and they did it too see which cars are needed to be adjusted more realisticly.

 

[Mulan]

@ Lion-Face, you can test til you're blue in the face it isn't going to change the fact that the 2.10 update screwed up the game.

It seems pretty obvious you don't get online much. If you did you would have realized right away something was wrong.

I knew in the first online race after the update that the pp system had been whacked. I didn't need some pointless test.

Check this post, #307, it has the list of affected cars.

Yes, online is not so good now. But it is not the PP system. Its the cars. Just another way of seeing it. If the PP is correct then the cars need to be adjusted now not the PP system.

 

[jackschitt]

I posted this before, but for me it's proof enough that some cars now have an un-fair advantage. CLK Touring vs Mobil 1 NSX - both cars @ 620pp - NSX was a little faster before the update. After the update, the CLK @ 580pp is faster by about 1.5 sec per lap.

How can it be fair that a car rated 40pp lower is faster?

I read someones post that the pp system was never completely fair & never will be - correct, but it was reasonably fair before & now it's a whacking great load of tripe.

I've no problem with the small changes that have been made to some cars, but others have been dropped by 50 & 60pp and the only way to run a fair room now is to ban these cars from being used or set the pp so high that other cars will remain competitve against them - example - set the room @ 640pp or ban the CLK Touring, C5-R Corvette, XR8 Falcon race car etc. etc....

 

[Johnnypenso]

Once again with the F40, it was 522pp before patch, 520 afterwards. 2pp isn't much, and before 2.10 it couldn't keep up with the faster cars. But after patch 2.10, I had some great close races with it against various other cars, the likes of an NSX and BMW which it wouldn't have kept pace with prior. I know that's not conclusive, and 2pp doesn't equal 2 seconds per lap which it was losing against the fastest cars patch 2.09, but now I feel it can be more competitive against a wider range of cars.

That's fine, do it. Prove it. There has been a lot of jumping up and down about the PP changes being broken but no 1:1 testing in a closed environment. After 20+ pages, I haven't seen a fair test put forward with solid results. Most of the naysayers are happy with saying Car X has 200HP more than Car Y therefore 2.10 = Broken meow meow meow. It may well be broken, but I havn't seen a practical test to prove it.

There is plenty of testing going on all over GTP, you need only take a minute and look for it. I've referred to it several times in this thread. Funny thing though, the guy who is all about testing, offers us anecdotal evidence that the F40 is better after the patch because, "...now I feel it can be more competitive against a wider range of cars. Now that's proof!!!!...lol.. Pot, meet kettle...

 

[XDesperado67]

Grr double post

 

[XDesperado67]

For those demanding testing and proof here is a link to the current F.I.T.T. Shootout in the tuning forum...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=272696

We're running on the Nordschleife with two classes. 450PP on Sport Hard tires and 550PP on Sport Soft tires.
Praiano who is a D1B driver and one of the top tuners on GTP has already submitted his entries, A DB7 Vanquish for 450PP and a Challenger SRT8 for 550PP. Neither of those cars would have been remotely competitive at those PP prior to V2.10.
Now Praising has run a 7:29.xxx with his Vanquish which is 16 seconds faster than his best time pre V2.10. (He used an Elise to get a 7:45.xxx)
While I'm not sure what his best 550PP time was pre update his SRT8 is running 6:44.xxx making it very fast.

You'll see a lot more tunes from other tuners in this event and you'll be very unlikely to see any of the cars that were considered tops in those classes pre V2.10. That's because they are no where close to as fast as the cars that got huge reductions in PP moving them into a different class of competition

 

[Lion-Face]

There is plenty of testing going on all over GTP, you need only take a minute and look for it. I've referred to it several times in this thread. Funny thing though, the guy who is all about testing, offers us anecdotal evidence that the F40 is better after the patch because, "...now I feel it can be more competitive against a wider range of cars. Now that's proof!!!!...lol.. Pot, meet kettle...

I haven't seen it, but I'm not looking very hard for it either. Then again I'm not the one saying the PP system is broken or not, just some arguments here are based on paper rather than practice, all I asked was to see some proof.

I also said that my example wasn't evidence, it was an example that a small change in PP is not to be written off like you suggested, stating that the RX8 6pp it gained is only worth 2 seconds through a rough example and a math equation. All I was putting forward was to put the cars into practice and come back with some hard numbers.

[EDIT]
@XDesperado67

Thanks for that, will be interesting to watch and see what comes from it.

 

[mike_gt3]

Tested your green machine XDesperado67

1st lap i crashed and got 7:39, the second lap wasnt too bad with 7:36.224, i had another second to shave id say. Handle very good, only downside is its speed and a slight understeer on some curve. Other than that its really fun to drive.


i just tried to reduce the rear wing at minium, and play with parts you had on it, didnt played with ballast or anything, just widened the 5th gear by accident( thought i adjusted the final ratio...) and with a lap not as good as the previous one i got 7:34.661
477hp that way and 260kmh top speed, i think it was 253 before.

It would need some adjustment to run like that probably, its a little more tricky, but faster. great car 👍

 

[XDesperado67]

@Mike thanks for running the SSR.👍👍

Out of curiosity what car was your fastest at 450PP on SH before the update and what was your time with it?

 

[mike_gt3]

Hmm i havent really tested 450pp before the update to be honest.

id say it would be the Elise like praiano found.

 

[Johnnypenso]

For those demanding testing and proof here is a link to the current F.I.T.T. Shootout in the tuning forum...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=272696

We're running on the Nordschleife with two classes. 450PP on Sport Hard tires and 550PP on Sport Soft tires.
Praiano who is a D1B driver and one of the top tuners on GTP has already submitted his entries, A DB7 Vanquish for 450PP and a Challenger SRT8 for 550PP. Neither of those cars would have been remotely competitive at those PP prior to V2.10.
Now Praiano has run a 7:29.xxx with his Vanquish which is 16 seconds faster than his best time pre V2.10. (He used an Elise to get a 7:35.xxx)
While I'm not sure what his best 550PP time was pre update his SRT8 is running 6:44.xxx making it very fast.

You'll see a lot more tunes from other tuners in this event and you'll be very unlikely to see any of the cars that were considered tops in those classes pre V2.10. That's because they are no where close to as fast as the cars that got huge reductions in PP moving them into a different class of competition.

I tested all of what I knew were the top cars before the update and my best was 7:45 in an RX-8. I skipped the Elise because Praiano had already tuned it but I don't think I had anything in my garage faster than that. Had an S2000 down to 7:46 and a couple others around 7:47. The Vanquish would not have even been on the radar before the update. I've tuned it before for 500PP and it wasn't competitive. Praiano had the FTO STC 500PPSS at 6:48 I believe before the update. The old times are dead, replaced by overpowered behemoths...lol.

 

[Polsixe]

From my granturismo.net it seems Mazda Miatas get a big benefit from this change, they don't have all the changes logged as yet, keep up the good work Milhouse.

Did my own 500pp test at Grand Valley East , all cars on SH tires and reasonably stock, except the Lotus.

FR - M5 was detuned a bit but fastest, consistent.
- stock DB9 with ECU boost was 2 seconds slower but suspension tune could cut that.
MR - Lotus 111R about same as Aston, but almost squeezed out.
FF - don't have. 500 pp FF, but 474 PP Alfa 147 just a tick slower, bit of a surprise.
AWD - used the Impreza WRX STi '10 used to simulate Makinen's sedan record at the 'ring, this was slowest , 3 sec behind M5.
RR - Ruf '00 tuned and Porschefied was fastest but slight red penalty, should be fastest of all, felt quick.

Conclusion, PP seems OK at this level.

 

[Steph290]

The number of different GT games and how long you have played them for is irrelevant to this discussion so get over it. As for your suggestion that I'm an online theorist, I unlike yourself haven't offered any theories, I've merely stated my opinion that it is broken and show some examples of how that is so.

Not sure why you decided to come after me but I guess a troll has to do what a troll has to do.

At first I thought Zuel had come back under a different username, but I guess regardless of how you prove something with firm facts there are those who will find opposition, no matter how far from the truth it is. As stated below.

Lol criticism is easy. Disagreeing is even easier. Offering a solution or constructive criticism is not so easy.👍

Well here's something you get to do that Zuel failed to. Prove your point with square unbiased testing. That is what those protesting 2.10 are doing right now and publicly displaying results. First and foremost I'd like to hear yours and others' definition of the pp system pre & post 2.10. What is the pp system supposed to do? I myself had believed that it was an algorithm based off of various factors such as weight, hp, grip, etc. that would allow any car at similar value to perform within a few seconds of each other. Of course there is driver skill and how well a base car performs that will factor into that lap time, but for the most part if you have decent knowledge of tuning and you're an above average driver you shouldn't have a problem racing an LFA, Evora, M3, or NSX and running a close race or better(winning) with your normal sports car. It has been done...those cars were not unbeatable. I had believed the system to work, imperfect, but that's what the overwhelming majority believed as well.

But seriously, I would like to hear some people define the pp system? If it works now, was it broken before? If so, how come there wasn't as much of a voice against it as there is now? Can different cars affected by 2.10 (i.e. an XFR, S2K, EvoX) run a race @ the same pp and have fair competition on any course? Those who are pro 2.10 need to answer these questions and not be vague.

 

[XDesperado67]

@Polsixe can I politely suggest you try some of the cars that saw much more drastic reductions in PP than either the M5 or DB9. Until you have tested some of the cars that have seen their PP changed by 50+ points I don't see how you can say V2.10 is good at any given level.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well here's something you get to do that Zuel failed to. Prove your point with square unbiased testing. That is what those protesting 2.10 are doing right now and publicly displaying results. First and foremost I'd like to hear yours and others' definition of the pp system pre & post 2.10. What is the pp system supposed to do? I myself had believed that it was an algorithm based off of various factors such as weight, hp, grip, etc. that would allow any car at similar value to perform within a few seconds of each other. Of course there is driver skill and how well a base car performs that will factor into that lap time, but for the most part if you have decent knowledge of tuning and you're an above average driver you shouldn't have a problem racing an LFA, Evora, M3, or NSX and running a close race or better(winning) with your normal sports car. It has been done...those cars were not unbeatable. I had believed the system to work, imperfect, but that's what the overwhelming majority believed as well.

But seriously, I would like to hear some people define the pp system? If it works now, was it broken before? If so, how come there wasn't as much of a voice against it as there is now? Can different cars affected by 2.10 (i.e. an XFR, S2K, EvoX) run a race @ the same pp and have fair competition on any course? Those who are pro 2.10 need to answer these questions and not be vague.

Dude where have you been? There has been a hue and cry about the PP system since the day it was implemented. And has been stated numerous times, there is testing going on throughout the Tuning Forum including the aforementioned Nurb Shootout and several new entries have been made on the Nurb PP Board, obliterating the previous times by up to 15 seconds.

I just test drove Praiano's 04' Vanquish, a car not on the radar before the update to a rather sloppy 7:32 at the 'Ring. Pre-2.10 my fastest car at 450PP on SH tires out of the entire garage was 7:45. I drove Des's HSR last night, a complete tank, to a rusty 7:38. I drove a 5 minute tuned Jag Luxury Coupe to a 7:35 in one lap. Callaway C12 - 7:36

The old guard, the NSX's, the Elise's, the RX7/8's are now obsolete at the Nurb and replaced by dozens of FR's that were not on the radar pre-2.10