Update 2.10 - Major PP changes

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Yes, online is not so good now. But it is not the PP system. Its the cars. Just another way of seeing it. If the PP is correct then the cars need to be adjusted now not the PP system.

Yes you are 100% correct - I will change what I am complaining about.

It is the selective lowering of the performance points of certain FR cars and a MR car.

That might be adding a little to the confusion.
 
I have to say that most of the tests I see using the Nurb as a test track are prone to much human variation. It's difficult to get absolute maximum speed through every corner. Sure it's fun but for a scientific comparitive test I would say shorter tracks should be used. So much momentum can be lost in corners where speed isn't maximised that it can make a big difference to lap times even with an experienced Ringer. Probably 2 tracks. Possibly a slower track and something which is a mixture of power and cornering would be more effective.
 
I have to say that most of the tests I see using the Nurb as a test track are prone to much human variation. It's difficult to get absolute maximum speed through every corner. Sure it's fun but for a scientific comparitive test I would say shorter tracks should be used. So much momentum can be lost in corners where speed isn't maximised that it can make a big difference to lap times even with an experienced Ringer. Probably 2 tracks. Possibly a slower track and something which is a mixture of power and cornering would be more effective.

I don't mind people using nurb for testing - I don't know it that well, but I am sure that there are people that do.

I prefer a shorter track like trial mountain or deep forest, but If I really knew the Nürburgring (which I certainly don't) I still think that is a great track to test on.
 
Grand Valley East is a great test track. Bit of everything a driver can expect, and a lap is only around the minute mark, or longer.
 
I have to say that most of the tests I see using the Nurb as a test track are prone to much human variation. It's difficult to get absolute maximum speed through every corner. Sure it's fun but for a scientific comparitive test I would say shorter tracks should be used. So much momentum can be lost in corners where speed isn't maximised that it can make a big difference to lap times even with an experienced Ringer. Probably 2 tracks. Possibly a slower track and something which is a mixture of power and cornering would be more effective.

Don't worry. The good Nürburgring online racers do like 50.000+ km a year on that track and will come within 1-2 sec of the best possible time quickly. Compare that to gains of 20+ sec for some cars and you'll see the longer track isn't an issue here.
 
At first I thought Zuel had come back under a different username, but I guess regardless of how you prove something with firm facts there are those who will find opposition, no matter how far from the truth it is. As stated below. :sly:



Well here's something you get to do that Zuel failed to. Prove your point with square unbiased testing. That is what those protesting 2.10 are doing right now and publicly displaying results. First and foremost I'd like to hear yours and others' definition of the pp system pre & post 2.10. What is the pp system supposed to do? I myself had believed that it was an algorithm based off of various factors such as weight, hp, grip, etc. that would allow any car at similar value to perform within a few seconds of each other. Of course there is driver skill and how well a base car performs that will factor into that lap time, but for the most part if you have decent knowledge of tuning and you're an above average driver you shouldn't have a problem racing an LFA, Evora, M3, or NSX and running a close race or better(winning) with your normal sports car. It has been done...those cars were not unbeatable. I had believed the system to work, imperfect, but that's what the overwhelming majority believed as well. :cool:

But seriously, I would like to hear some people define the pp system? If it works now, was it broken before? If so, how come there wasn't as much of a voice against it as there is now? Can different cars affected by 2.10 (i.e. an XFR, S2K, EvoX) run a race @ the same pp and have fair competition on any course? Those who are pro 2.10 need to answer these questions and not be vague.


Mate I would never post anything to help people on here again. There is a little clique of 'pro tuners' anyone else that offers advice or solutions are instantly frowned upon if your not part of the 'expert tuning clique'. I'm happy to keep it that way. I will continue to tune my cars as I have done per 2.10 and post 2.10
 
Dude where have you been? There has been a hue and cry about the PP system since the day it was implemented. And has been stated numerous times, there is testing going on throughout the Tuning Forum including the aforementioned Nurb Shootout and several new entries have been made on the Nurb PP Board, obliterating the previous times by up to 15 seconds.

I know that dude. I was posing the question to those who believed that the system works "now". I'm not blind. :cool:

Mate I would never post anything to help people on here again. There is a little clique of 'pro tuners' anyone else that offers advice or solutions are instantly frowned upon if your not part of the 'expert tuning clique'. I'm happy to keep it that way. I will continue to tune my cars as I have done per 2.10 and post 2.10
And you are proving my point that those stand for 2.10 have no basis. All I asked was to answer my one or two questions and you refused to do so. It's your choice but to me it looks you did exactly what Zuel did before and chicken out. C'mon and have a proper debate if you so believe PD didn't make an error. Give us some substantial evidence that it works now? You can't. Goodbye.

But what I will do is start my own tuning thread in the tuner form, the thread will be titled “JTM SKUNKS WORKS LTM” I will be sharing my entire test, race and qualifying tunes for these areas. (Street Car) Suspension, Motor Stages, Air, Exhaust, Weight Stages, transmission and diff numbers will be kept private. (Race Car) Suspension and Aero, Transmission and diff numbers will be kept private. This is my final post in this thread which I know some or even not all of you will enjoy very much. :)
 
I know that dude. I was posing the question to those who believed that the system works "now". I'm not blind. :cool:


And you are proving my point that those stand for 2.10 have no basis. All I asked was to answer my one or two questions and you refused to do so. It's your choice but to me it looks you did exactly what Zuel did before and chicken out. C'mon and have a proper debate if you so believe PD didn't make an error. Give us some substantial evidence that it works now? You can't. Goodbye.

What are you gassing on about. Where did I say in any post that the pp system is perfect?
I simply said there are ways to work around it if you want to. I stand for 2.10 because it makes the game more interesting and brings other cars into play that we're not before. My opinion only. Question answered. Read my posts before you assume anything because your statement comparing me to Zeul makes zero sense and is just a rant with no reason.
 
Just to add that PD know exactly what they are doing by changing the pp system. If they upset you then i suggest you write a letter of complaint to Kaz.
 
Yeah because people don't get things wrong every now and again, do they? I'm sure PD thought they knew what they were doing when they changed the 3rd person camera but a few updates later they changed it back.

I really don't know why people refuse to say the PP system is more flawed now even when they say things "there are ways to work around it".
 
What are you gassing on about. Where did I say in any post that the pp system is perfect?
I simply said there are ways to work around it if you want to. I stand for 2.10 because it makes the game more interesting and brings other cars into play that we're not before. My opinion only. Question answered. Read my posts before you assume anything because your statement comparing me to Zeul makes zero sense and is just a rant with no reason.

Opinion: No one is saying the pp system is perfect. It has and will never be. And hey, some people find it interesting the challenge of figuring out the new ringer cars. Nothing wrong there. As far as the cars, every car was in play and used fairly in lobbies, but that depended on the type of people you race with. You get a number of friends, start a smaller community of racers who found it fun to tune an S4 or a GTO and put it against an M3 or NSX and you'd be set. The cars were always in play, they just were either difficult to tune or just unpopular as some are in real life.

Also the reason I compared you to Zuel is because after asking for specifics, both of you replied with something along the lines of "I do not want to post on this topic again" or "I'll just continue with my tuning". You did not answer any question I asked in bold here . I did not ask if it was interesting or are different cars being used now. But we'll try again...

Question: What I asked for those who stand by 2.10 was, "Does the new pp system work and why?" Cause I don't see a way to work around two cars on a track with a difference of 200+hp or lap times averaging 10sec apart. We are seeing testing threads all over proving that 2.10 is broken, but nothing from the side that believes that PD improved the system. Help your cause with a detailed explanation (include test result numbers and refrain from using phrases such as "it feels" or "work around it")
 
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I have to say that most of the tests I see using the Nurb as a test track are prone to much human variation. It's difficult to get absolute maximum speed through every corner. Sure it's fun but for a scientific comparitive test I would say shorter tracks should be used. So much momentum can be lost in corners where speed isn't maximised that it can make a big difference to lap times even with an experienced Ringer. Probably 2 tracks. Possibly a slower track and something which is a mixture of power and cornering would be more effective.

I can run laps on the Nurb within a second of each other routinely and I'm not that experienced there compared to Praiano or Mike GT3 who have probably run thousands of laps there. Consistent laps can be run there, but not by everybody.

Opinion:Question: What I asked for those who stand by 2.10 was, "[B]Does the new pp system work and why?[/B]" Cause I don't see a way to work around two cars on a track with a difference of 200+hp or lap times averaging 10sec apart. We are seeing testing threads all over proving that 2.10 is broken, but nothing from the side that believes that PD improved the system. Help your cause with a detailed explanation (include test result numbers and refrain from using phrases such as "it feels" or "work around it")

It might help if you defined the term "work", no joking. My idea of "working" would be a wide variety of cars that can compete within a second at medium sized tracks routinely used in the game or perhaps 4 or 5 seconds at the 'Ring on native tires. Variety means that the high end, good handling cars should be in the mix like the NSX, RX7/8, Evora etc, along with some of the better handling sort of luxury touring cars and sports sedans like the BMW M5, Astons, Jags, Commodores etc. The smaller or more nimble cars might have a slight advantage at the twistier handling tracks and the larger cars might have an advantage at the larger power tracks.

I think for some people they are ok with 2.10 because the landscape has changed and it's all new cars now fighting for the win. In my opinion, that's a mistake on PD's part. Change for the sake of change, with no goal in mind and no intent to better the franchise, is what unsuccessful companies do. The best handling cars in the world should be competing for a win, not relegated to backmarker status. It only serves to prove to anyone listening, that the PP system is completely arbitrary, and not a serious attempt to provide competitive racing across a variety of cars and drivetrains.
 
It might help if you defined the term "work", no joking. My idea of "working" would be a wide variety of cars that can compete within a second at medium sized tracks routinely used in the game or perhaps 4 or 5 seconds at the 'Ring on native tires. Variety means that the high end, good handling cars should be in the mix like the NSX, RX7/8, Evora etc, along with some of the better handling sort of luxury touring cars and sports sedans like the BMW M5, Astons, Jags, Commodores etc. The smaller or more nimble cars might have a slight advantage at the twistier handling tracks and the larger cars might have an advantage at the larger power tracks.

I think for some people they are ok with 2.10 because the landscape has changed and it's all new cars now fighting for the win. In my opinion, that's a mistake on PD's part. Change for the sake of change, with no goal in mind and no intent to better the franchise, is what unsuccessful companies do. The best handling cars in the world should be competing for a win, not relegated to backmarker status. It only serves to prove to anyone listening, that the PP system is completely arbitrary, and not a serious attempt to provide competitive racing across a variety of cars and drivetrains.

I did believe the same thing. 👍 Perhaps a bit(and I stress a bit) more power should've been added to heavier cars or some taken from go-to cars to even the playing field. Small tweaks that PD could've done to have cars still racing in a pack, but this 2.10 is just unreasonable. If they wanted cars that weren't popular before to fight for a win all they had to do was spend a few hours tuning it. I and many others have, but now they are appeased because they have an over abundance of power to make up for their lack of driving or tuning skill which I believe is taking away from the game as whole.

Oh, and I did give what I thought "worked" meant. To quote myself last page
What is the pp system supposed to do? I myself had believed that it was an algorithm based off of various factors such as weight, hp, grip, etc. that would allow any car at similar value to perform within a few seconds of each other. Of course there is driver skill and how well a base car performs that will factor into that lap time, but for the most part if you have decent knowledge of tuning and you're an above average driver you shouldn't have a problem racing an LFA, Evora, M3, or NSX and running a close race or better(winning) with your normal sports car. It has been done...those cars were not unbeatable. I had believed the system to work, imperfect, but that's what the overwhelming majority believed as well. :cool:
Apparently, those who enjoy this update have a different understanding of the term "worked", but they have not said how.
 
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I enjoy this update. PD is moving towards the correct direction with 2.10. Gone are the days when a type R NSX, Evora, Elise, would be a fast car on the straights, being faster over 00 Camaro SS, Commodore SS and other v8s built for straight line speed at 450-500pp. Those small cars before 2.10, not only had a speed advantage, but also superior in corners with outright superior handling. Those micro cars should be superior in handling, but not brute top end speed.

PD is working towards something like this. An Australian V8 supercar is blowing past a micro Lotus on the straights while the Lotus gains ground with corners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044

Quit pretending before 2.10 it was balanced. It certainly wasn't with a handful of cars ruling low PP rooms no matter the track. I see a variety of cars being used now at low PP. The high HP US cars will never be a plague like the above try hard cars before 2.10 simply because they have a weakness.
 
PD is working towards something like this. An Australian V8 supercar is blowing past a micro Lotus on the straights while the Lotus gains ground with corners. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044

Wow, so I'm guessing you successfully got in touch with Kaz and the team and confirmed this as their intentions. Congrats, was it an email, phone call, or his twitter feed? :eek: Nothing is confirmed from PD so don't jump the gun, and even if that were their intentions they surely have gone about it the wrong way.
Quit pretending before 2.10 it was balanced. It certainly wasn't with a handful of cars ruling low PP rooms no matter the track. I see a variety of cars being used now at low PP. The high HP US cars will never be a plague like the above try hard cars before 2.10 simply because they have a weakness.
Of course this is faaarrrr more balanced than before. :sly: And pray tell what is the weakness of "high HP US cars"? :odd:
 
A High HP 2000 SS Camaro at 450-500pp simply doesn't handle like a micro Evora, type R NSX, Elise nor should it handle like the above cars. The weakness of high HP older American/Australian cars are brakes, cornering, and overall handling when compared to type R NSX, Elise, Evora. After 2.10 these cars actually have an advantage in brute straight line speed like they should of all along over the micro cars that became a plague in online racing. They didn't have a weakness before 2.10. They were really fast in a straight line while being really great with cornering too. Online rooms they were everywhere along with standard M3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044
 
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I enjoy this update. PD is moving towards the correct direction with 2.10. Gone are the days when a type R NSX, Evora, Elise, would be a fast car on the straights, being faster over 00 Camaro SS, Commodore SS and other v8s built for straight line speed at 450-500pp. Those small cars before 2.10, not only had a speed advantage, but also superior in corners with outright superior handling. Those micro cars should be superior in handling, but not brute top end speed.

PD is working towards something like this. An Australian V8 supercar is blowing past a micro Lotus on the straights while the Lotus gains ground with corners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044

Quit pretending before 2.10 it was balanced. It certainly wasn't with a handful of cars ruling low PP rooms no matter the track. I see a variety of cars being used now at low PP. The high HP US cars will never be a plague like the above try hard cars before 2.10 simply because they have a weakness.

A High HP 2000 SS Camaro at 450-500pp simply doesn't handle like a micro Evora, type R NSX, Elise nor should it handle like the above cars. The weakness of high HP older American/Australian cars are brakes, cornering, and overall handling when compared to type R NSX, Elise, Evora. After 2.10 these cars actually have an advantage in brute straight line speed like they should of all along over the micro cars that became a plague in online racing. They didn't have a weakness before 2.10. They were really fast in a straight line while being really great with cornering too. Online rooms they were everywhere along with standard M3.


Hmm. If those are the reasons, than I'm okay with it, despite me not having a problem with this change and selling all my cars and tuning them again. :sly: Hope that is PD's reason, I mean that should be understandable right? Why don't they say anything? :)

The fact that everyone are using different cars in online races now, makes me want to join in. I love variety. :D
 
Lol I've been following the thread and it amuses me. RS tyres make the issue much worse with uneven performance between the drive trains. Don't try your condescending tone fella your not teaching me anything.

Suuuuuuure you've been following the thread. Right. :rolleyes:

If you had really been following the thread, you would have seen this post: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8033385#post8033385

Which involves neither tuning nor RS tires.

You mean the test done with a FF, FR, MR and 4WD at various PP levels around Deep Forest? That was also conclusive.

In what way, precisely, do you feel that the testing failed to support the conclusions I drew from it?

There was a lot of BS being slung about regarding tuning and sticky tires. Fair enough: I tested with bone stock cars (eliminating any argument about tuning parts breaking PP) and I tested on stock tires, which were CS for all cars tested (eliminating any argument about PP differences only mattering on unrealistically sticky tires). Yes, the PP weren't identical. You'll notice that none of my conclusions pretended that they were identical.
 
I enjoy this update. PD is moving towards the correct direction with 2.10. Gone are the days when a type R NSX, Evora, Elise, would be a fast car on the straights, being faster over 00 Camaro SS, Commodore SS and other v8s built for straight line speed at 450-500pp. Those small cars before 2.10, not only had a speed advantage, but also superior in corners with outright superior handling. Those micro cars should be superior in handling, but not brute top end speed.

PD is working towards something like this. An Australian V8 supercar is blowing past a micro Lotus on the straights while the Lotus gains ground with corners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044

Quit pretending before 2.10 it was balanced. It certainly wasn't with a handful of cars ruling low PP rooms no matter the track. I see a variety of cars being used now at low PP. The high HP US cars will never be a plague like the above try hard cars before 2.10 simply because they have a weakness.

The basic concept of this is sound, and that's what I think most people want. High-power and straight-line speed cars that don't handle as well as others should have an advantage on the straights. It should be enough that if you are right behind and get a good corner exit and a bit of slipstream that you can have a reasonable chance of completing the pass with your straightline advantage.

It shouldn't be so much however that if you are several car-lengths behind and get a lousy exit that your massive advantage on the straight lets you blow past them half-way down the straight, which is the situation with some cars now. That is not an example of two cars that make their speed in different portions of the track, that's two cars which don't belong in the same class as one another, and so theoretically shouldn't have the same PP. You can see it from the standing start: if one car hooks up much better than the others and gains 25 feet right away, the others might be able to close the gap down after a medium-long run into the first corner and a couple might get past, but the entire field shouldn't be able to streak past that car in 500 feet.

The handling difference usually isn't enough to make up for that, as a good driver with a good tune will find a way to be at least decent in the corners. It sometimes can work for people who aren't experts and have trouble putting the power down smoothly and accurately. But for people good at getting what the car gives them to come out, it means those straight-line cars will dominate every time, even on twisty tracks.

And some of those formerly advantaged cars, such as the Elises, DID originally have a slight disadvantage in at least acceleration if not ultimate speed, however it was more than made up for by their massive handling advantage They would seem to be faster in a straight line because they started so much faster at the start of the straight. Others such as the NSXes tended to be very good at both. As most people seem to recognize, things weren't quite right before and they tried to do some of the right things with this update, but they overdid it in a great many cases. The problem here is not so much with the idea, it's with the execution. A small amount of testing should have shown that something about it was amiss and probably needed to be refined and and the whole thing implemented in a later patch - when it was ready.

The other issue is how they chose which cars to give help to and which not to. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. Some FR cars that underperformed before got a moderate boost, some got a huge boost. Some FR cars that weren't too bad before got a big boost, some were untouched. Some underperforming cars were untouched. The old "ringer" cars didn't change very much as compared to most of the other non-FR-driven cars that they were also outperforming. And then there's some cars like the 3400S that were already very good(and not necessarily FR), yet still got a boost.

Since you mentioned the '00 Camaro SS... Why is it that the '00 SS which is more powerful but otherwise highly similar to the '97 Z28 Camaro, went from being higher in PP(which you'd expect) to being a full 20 points lower at stock? Both cars get a boost from this update, but the SS is now roughly 10mph faster in a straight line than the Z28 at the same PP and yet handles just as well. Some of the other Camaros were given boosts, and the 2010(which by no means ran away with every race it was in) was not. The Camaro LM race car was already a competent car in it's class, yet it was given a substantial deduction in it's PP as well.

People will always complain about a change, and performance balancing can never be perfect. Things also aren't always as bad as they seem at first. But sometimes there is a reason to complain, just as sometimes the wrong change can be made. I'd like some of my underperforming cars to be brought into line with the majority. But I don't want some of them chosen seemingly at random to suddenly gain so much performance that gaining positions isn't even an achievement anymore, while many others thus become even worse underperformers and average performing cars turn into hopeless backmarkers.

Ah, well... at least the Ford Falcon race car isn't 630ish PP anymore.
 
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If you had really been following the thread, you would have seen this post: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8033385#post8033385

Funny... from what I read, you expect FF cars to perform similar to MR/FR cars? And you consider yourself serious?

From your tests, the Berlinette was fastest, with 30pp more than the RX7. Makes a lot of sense, doesnt it? Both were much faster than the Golf, event though Golf had similar PP to the MX7, which seems ok as well.

Front and Rear traction cars have different handling characteristics. You cannot expect them to lap equally on any given track, even though their PP are the same.

I understand the whole argument of not changing the game so much at this stage of development, but I see no major flaw in the system as it is right now, relative to what it was before.
 
Quit pretending before 2.10 it was balanced. It certainly wasn't with a handful of cars ruling low PP rooms no matter the track. I see a variety of cars being used now at low PP. The high HP US cars will never be a plague like the above try hard cars before 2.10 simply because they have a weakness.

You obviously haven't been following the thread, because I don't think anyone has advocated that the old PP system was ideal. Everybody knows it was tilted in favour of the better handling street cars, that's not debateable. From what I see, most people would rather the tweeks brought some of the FR's up to par with those cars, or alternately, bring the PP of some of the supercars a little higher, to bring them closer to the underperforming cars.

The point you and all the other 2.10 advocates are missing, is that all this update did was swing the pendulum in the other direction. In my eyes, an IROC Camaro shouldn't be 15 seconds faster at the Nurb than an NSX or an Elise. It's different, yes. If you all you want out of the game is variety then you're probably happy with the update, no one can debate that either.

But to advocate that this update that puts crappy handling slugs ahead of some of the best cars in the world on the track, is somehow an improvement, is a joke. Most of us would have been ecstatic if PD brought more cars into the mix instead all they did was swap out one set of cars for another. That's not an improvement, it's shooting darts at a dartboard or throwing 🤬 and the wall to see what sticks.
 
Is PP a problem only online? If so, then it won't matter if a couple of people on this forum dont like it if millions don't care. If PD belive they needed to change the PP settings then they did it for a reason. It might take more time to get it as they actually dont say anything (this is the reason GT Planet exists..so perhaps thanks for so little info so we can argue away). But i don't think they did this after so long time with the game just to ruin all online games. There is a bigger picture here that we havent gotten yet. It may be GT6 related or it may be pure PD perfectionists that want the premium cars to be correct no matter what consequences they get online. Let the community handle that. I still belive the PP system may be really well tested but that some cars actually are wrong. It will be exiting to se if they correct PP or they correct some cars just to please online community that uses theese. But for me its no problem and it can even be logical that some cars are really faster. SInce even in F1 there is big differance between cars that should be closely matched if you see it on paper.
 
You obviously haven't been following the thread, because I don't think anyone has advocated that the old PP system was ideal. Everybody knows it was tilted in favour of the better handling street cars, that's not debateable. From what I see, most people would rather the tweeks brought some of the FR's up to par with those cars, or alternately, bring the PP of some of the supercars a little higher, to bring them closer to the underperforming cars.

The point you and all the other 2.10 advocates are missing, is that all this update did was swing the pendulum in the other direction. In my eyes, an IROC Camaro shouldn't be 15 seconds faster at the Nurb than an NSX or an Elise. It's different, yes. If you all you want out of the game is variety then you're probably happy with the update, no one can debate that either.

But to advocate that this update that puts crappy handling slugs ahead of some of the best cars in the world on the track, is somehow an improvement, is a joke. Most of us would have been ecstatic if PD brought more cars into the mix instead all they did was swap out one set of cars for another. That's not an improvement, it's shooting darts at a dartboard or throwing 🤬 and the wall to see what sticks.

I belive it can. But it depends on how the PP is handled. The Camaro might be a better car at certain PP. Its always been like this. If its not stock then all the custom settings can make even a Kubelwagen a supercar. In this game as soon as there is upgrades it starts to be arcadish for me (but fun).
I see cars go on Nurb in real racing like 270-290km/h and start to be tough to handle but we take a old Nissan and go like 330km/h ingame. Wow...really, can the chassis even handle that and what about the rest? But i still understand that PP should bring some kind of equality to the game but i wonder if it really is possible without ruining the differances between cars that actually exist depending on class.
 
Funny... from what I read, you expect FF cars to perform similar to MR/FR cars?

In what sense?

I expect PP to be a reasonable approximation of performance, regardless of drivetrain, yes. I don't expect it to be perfect, and I don't expect identical PP to mean identical performance; that is, I expect that with two cars at the same PP, one might be better-handling and one might be higher power. On a hypothetical "balanced" track, they would do about the same, a tighter track would favor the "handling" car and a more open track would favor the "power" car.

From your tests, the Berlinette was fastest, with 30pp more than the RX7. Makes a lot of sense, doesnt it?

Marginally faster, and I think it was more like 40 PP than 30 PP. No, it doesn't make a lot of sense. With that PP difference, the Berlinette should have crushed the RX-7, especially considering that Deep Forest is, in my estimation, a fairly well-balanced track, maybe even pro-handling, and, by your own statements, you seem to think that MR should tend toward better handling.

Front and Rear traction cars have different handling characteristics. You cannot expect them to lap equally on any given track, even though their PP are the same.

Then PP might as well be scrapped. If it can't be used to approximate the relative performance of cars with ballpark power and weight but different handling/drivetrain, then it's useless. Worse than useless, even, it gives the illusion of offering balance when it really does anything but.

I understand the whole argument of not changing the game so much at this stage of development

I don't care that they changed the game. I care that the change the made broke the system it was purporting to "fix".



Is PP a problem only online?
I think it's a problem for seasonal events, too, particularly ones with relatively open vehicle limitations. I now have a lot less guidance about what makes a "reasonable" choice for the races.
 
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I don't understand how the new Challenger SRT8 dropped so drastically. It's below the Elise 11R by about 11 pp, but it dominates it on the straights and isn't terrible in the corners.
 
"But to advocate that this update that puts crappy handling slugs ahead of some of the best cars in the world on the track, is somehow an improvement, is a joke."

What was a joke before 2.10 was little micro cars with lawnmower motors out accelerating having more speed in a straight line over muscle cars. Of course you weren't complaining when your micro cars had every advantage. Now its payback time. My 69 z28, 2000 SS, 04 GTO, Commonder SS are gonna blow past you in the straights honking away. You no longer have pure speed advantage in a straight line. Now you have to rely on superior handling, which the cars you mentioned should be superior at. Not pure straight line speed though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044

I believe PD is moving towards the above link. Australian V8 Supercars vs Lotus Exige.
 
"But to advocate that this update that puts crappy handling slugs ahead of some of the best cars in the world on the track, is somehow an improvement, is a joke."

What was a joke before 2.10 was little micro cars with lawnmower motors out accelerating having more speed in a straight line over muscle cars. Of course you weren't complaining when your micro cars had every advantage. Now its payback time. My 69 z28, 2000 SS, 04 GTO, Commonder SS are gonna blow past you in the straights honking away. You no longer have pure speed advantage in a straight line. Now you have to rely on superior handling, which the cars you mentioned should be superior at. Not pure straight line speed though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044

I believe PD is moving towards the above link. Australian V8 Supercars vs Lotus Exige.

Now there's a logical reason for a PP update...payback time!!!...lol. Why didn't I see that? PD's motivation must be revenge for all the poor, downtrodden big blocks...lol...joke of the day!!!! Here's a little education for you about real life:

Top Speed
240km/h - Elise 111R
185km/h - 69 Camaro

0-100km/h
4.7 seconds - Elise 111R
7.5 seconds - 69 Camaro

1/4 mile
13.4@162km/h - Elise 111R
15.4@144km/h - 69 Camaro

Skidpad
.92g - Lotus Elise
It turns? - 69 Camaro

By every measure this little micro car with the lawnmower engine makes the Camaro look about as fast as a stop sign.
 
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Now there's a logical reason for a PP update...payback time!!!...lol. Why didn't I see that? PD's motivation must be revenge for all the poor, downtrodden big blocks...lol...joke of the day!!!!

Funny. The posts you provided are all about having advantage. You want your micro cars to have great straight line speed and fantastic cornering ability. When PD addresses straight line speed problem that wasn't balanced with micro cars-try hard cars, you moan and post snarky comments. You believe type R NSX, Evora, Elise should have no weakness, that those cars should have more top end speed over the cars I mentioned along with superior handling. You want the best of both worlds. This is what your posts demonstrated to me.

Australian V8 Supercars vs Lotus Exige. Real world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044
 
Funny. The posts you provided are all about having advantage. You want your micro cars to have great straight line speed and fantastic cornering ability. When PD addresses straight line speed problem that wasn't balanced with micro cars-try hard cars, you moan and post snarky comments. You believe type R NSX, Evora, Elise should have no weakness, that those cars should have more top end speed over the cars I mentioned along with superior handling. You want the best of both worlds. This is what your posts demonstrated to me.

Australian V8 Supercars vs Lotus Exige. Real world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpTC2JZdfg&list=PL6A54F78B0F85A044

Wrong, wrong and let me see...wrong. I've never said anything about micro cars vs. any other car, nor hinted at it or alluded to it. The point you are so clearly missing, is PD didn't address the problem, they put a shot in the dark bandaid on it, an ill-conceived, completely untested update, that rather than equalizing even more cars and allowing a wider range of competitive choices, just replaced one set of preferred cars with another. I have no problem with the PP system giving a Commodore more straightline speed than an NSX and a relatively equal laptime. The imbalance that was there before is still there, all that has changed is which type of car is on which end of the scale.

If you would open your mind for a minute you might see this update did absolutely nothing to resolve the imbalance, just created a different one. This update is not a step forward for the game, it's just a step sideways and some might say a step backwards, in spite of the fact that some people like it.
 
Erm, that's not a "V8 Supercar", that footage is from the Bathurst production car race. Is it logical to assume that if any given car can carry more speed into & out of a corner, that it would achieve a higher speed at the end of the straight? Is it also logical to assume that if any given car is shaped like a house-brick, it might have a bit of trouble pushing the air on the far side of 200km/h or 125mph?
 
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