Update sucks

[RoboKrikit]

I cant think of many...if any..race series that runs ABS on their cars...and wasnt the argument about realism and realistic racing? Alot of people dont like or drive with TCS or ASM because it takes the 'spirit' out of racing where its man and machine, not computers running to the finish. Yet ABS is still accepted when people drive with 'no aids'?? Thats not no aids, if you have ABS on, your racing with computer controller aids. ABS is a safety device for road cars for driving on the road in everyday life, and if your trying to demonstrate the difficulty of driving a powerful performance car at speed, you wouldnt have any computer aids turned on...it defeats the purpose.

These are stock cars with ABS, including the Ford GT that was the subject of your post. If you buy a Ford GT and take it to the track, it's going to have ABS. Same with most any current production sports car. It is more realistic to drive those cars with ABS enabled.

A purpose-built track car is of course a different story. The point is that driving with ABS on is not necessarily unrealistic.

 

[tonyt3rry]

too me its all about having fun with the car. I do like like realism, But it doesnt bother me that much as I dont drive in real life

 

[Lion-Face]

These are stock cars with ABS, including the Ford GT that was the subject of your post. If you buy a Ford GT and take it to the track, it's going to have ABS. Same with most any current production sports car. It is more realistic to drive those cars with ABS enabled.

A purpose-built track car is of course a different story. The point is that driving with ABS on is not necessarily unrealistic.

Yes i can see your point. The problem is, that driving aids are there to allow the average person to drive one of these cars. The computer controlled aids attempt to bridge the gap between a novice and a vet.

His argument was that it shouldn't be possible that a 12year old can drive a Ford GT that cleanly and hence GT5P was unrealistic. But if you have driving aids on, and not trying to win the race or push the vehicle at all, then theres no reason why a 12 year old couldnt drive the car like that. Especially considering the lack of anything that GT5P simulates, like tire temps, pressure, degradation, wear of tires/track surface and many other variables that are in the real world. If you want to make an argument like that, then you have to remove all aids and let the subject drive the car in its purist form trying to win the race.

 

[greenlightning]

Off track excursions was better before the update. Meaning that it severally limited your ability to keep racing. Other than that I do not have to many complaints.

 

[JAGUAR1977]

I've spent all day driving GT5P, and you know what, it felt like rfactor. The Ferrari 512 on N tyres was like the 70's race cars in the HistoricX mod, you can slide it all over the place.

The rest of the cars feel as expected, the only thing I miss is the ability to have custom races/time trials were you can limit tyre choice and tuning. It would be great to race the Ferrari 512 in a tuned state but with N tyres against a similar field.

I'm a stickler for realism, thats why I race with the driving aids a car has in real life, they can be tuned to be safe and slow, or you can taylor them to give you a performance advantage. Thats why race cars such as the 997 RSR have 16 or so different traction control settings, they're a performance tool, and increasingly with roadcars, are designed to have them as standard, thats why it's cool to take an old car out sometimes.

 

[Scaff]

OK I'm going to stick my hat into this discussion at long last.

So does the update suck?

In my opinion no, it doesn't. Its still not 100% right, but its tweaked a few issues from before and improved on them, but its also thrown a few new problem to light as well.

Now first off, one of the biggest discussion points here has been around the subject of grip levels, are they too sticky, etc, etc. Well I have now spent a long of hours with a lot of differing cars and a lot of tyre choices. The N grade tyres still offer pretty much what I would expect in terms of straight levels of grip, with grip increaseing as you move to S and then R grade tyres.

I will be quite honest I don't have a single problem with how much grip is offered by the tyres at all, my issue is with what happens once that limit is reached.

The N grade tyres have almost no progression to them once the limit of grip is reached at all, you go straight from grip to no-grip, they are not progressive in any way at all. Now real world road tyres are designed to be as progressive as possiable, this is at the expense of outright grip, in addition road car suspension is designed to highlight this. The main reason being its quite simply safer for any loss of grip to happen in a progressive manner.

If you were to look at tyre curves for a road tyre you would see they drop off quite sharply when the slip angle limit is reached, which results in a rapid drop into understeer. Oversteer could then be forced by exceeding the rear tyres limit with power, but it would be understeer first as the dominant handling trait, with oversteer something you transition through.

The following graph shows examples of the kind of curves you get for road biased tyres, and shows the rapid drop quite well...

As tyres get more 'race' biased they tend to increase in terms of overall grip and they tend to drop off less as they exceed the limit. This gives very high cornering speeds and a much lower understeer tendancy when the limit is reached, making the car more responsive but trickier when the limit is reached.

The following graph shows F1 tyres, and the red line (lateral force) quite clearly shows a much shallower drop-off.

Quite simply GT5 after the update has this totally back to front, the N grade tyres have almost no understeer characteristics at all for RWD cars, even increaseing the steering angle gently doesn't work with an almost immediate oversteer balance the moment grip is lost. As you move to S and then R grade tyres you get a lot more understeer and a much slower and more progress loss of control before the car switches to oversteer.

So while the overall grip levels are around what I would expect them to be, the behaviour of the tyres once the level of grip has been exceeded is wrong. Over the limit road tyres are far more snappy and prone to oversteer than race tyres are, which is just plain strange to me.


Give me more time and I will try and add to this as I can, but these are my initial thoughts.


Regards

Scaff

 

[the Interceptor]

Excellent analysis Scaff! 👍

Looking forward to read more about this from you.

 

[iam220]

Nice one, Scaff.

Wasn't the lack of progression over the limit always present in gt5p?

Well, whatever, hopefully the doubters now realize what a step forward this update is .. and there's only more to come, I have little doubt that gt5 will be AMAZING.

 

[unimental]

Nice one, Scaff.

Wasn't the lack of progression over the limit always present in gt5p?

Well, whatever, hopefully the doubters now realize what a step forward this update is .. and there's only more to come, I have little doubt that gt5 will be AMAZING.

How is it a step forward if GT5P is now providing completely backwards grip progression?

Nice summary, Scaff. 👍

 

[homeforsummer]

How is it a step forward if GT5P is now providing completely backwards grip progression?

I think he meant because the grip levels are more realistic now. The grip progression has never been right so regardless of the fact that element isn't right, the physics have taken a step forward because the actual grip is correct now.

 

[iam220]

I think he meant because the grip levels are more realistic now. The grip progression has never been right so regardless of the fact that element isn't right, the physics have taken a step forward because the actual grip is correct now.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. 👍

People are so stubborn on internet forums, I wonder what it will take for them to admit that they were wrong and that the new update is in fact more realistic? I wonder what reply the doubters whom trusted scaffs opinion will come back with .. ?

 

[BLACK86]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. 👍

People are so stubborn on internet forums, I wonder what it will take for them to admit that they were wrong and that the new update is in fact more realistic? I wonder what reply the doubters whom trusted scaffs opinion will come back with .. ?

if i read scaff correctly the grip levels are more realistic, however when it comes to the limit and beyond of the tire its naff, and the limit and beyond is what seperates the boys from the girls, so with this new insight, controlling the car on the absolute limit and beyond has become noob.

so you guys seem to have your trust in scaff, ive read a few of his and they do seem very technical, so my trust is there too. glad he has cleared the extra grip factor up, doesnt bug me now as he says the grip is more real, until it hits the limit and beyond.

 

[m00ndancer]

Many mods for rFactor have the same type of odd behavior. And it all boils down to tire modelling in many cases. I share Scaff:s sentiments and have the same feeling as some of you have, the grip levels are much closer to what I would expect. So it is a improvement in my book. But the behavior beyond the grip level is a whole other story and I don't have enough experience or knowledge to judge that. I seldom drive on the bleeding edge either, I'm not that good as a driver.

 

[Rocket Punch]

the behaviour of the tyres once the level of grip has been exceeded is wrong. Over the limit road tyres are far more snappy and prone to oversteer than race tyres are, which is just plain strange to me.

Glad someone else noticed.

This is a sad sign that GT5 is based on "effects physics" and not "simulated physics". Due the fact that PD's uses a "blackbox" engine, no one outside PD will know exactly how their engine functions. In addition, there are so many variables missing from this game which I doubt will be in the final release.

 

[OrangeR]

So while the overall grip levels are around what I would expect them to be, the behaviour of the tyres once the level of grip has been exceeded is wrong. Over the limit road tyres are far more snappy and prone to oversteer than race tyres are, which is just plain strange to me.


Give me more time and I will try and add to this as I can, but these are my initial thoughts.


Regards

Scaff

Excellent Scaff 👍 Thanks for putting all the hard work to back with facts your opinions.

I think he meant because the grip levels are more realistic now. The grip progression has never been right so regardless of the fact that element isn't right, the physics have taken a step forward because the actual grip is correct now.

There you are right, perhaps the grip level of the tires is more real now. That would be superb... if this game where the real tire simulator JK

Grip levels improved 👍 Wrong tire behavior on limits NO! NO! This is bad because this tells me that the tire grip is as real as it gets, right until we ask more of them, as like in driving fast, racing with them, where the inputs of throttle, steering, and weight shifts are more significant to get the max out of the tires and chassis. With this update those inputs have become some what numbed with some tire compounds when trying to reach those limits, that's why suddenly cars got more easy to drive, if pre-update you reached the grip limit on 60-65% throttle on a high HP car on panasonic corner at Fuji, now you reach it close to 85% throttle, so, Johnny Heavyfeets could "control" the car better. I'm not saying the pre-update was spot on or it was better in any way, but it was for sure more oriented to the finesse on inputs in order to control the car and be fast.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. 👍

People are so stubborn on internet forums, I wonder what it will take for them to admit that they were wrong and that the new update is in fact more realistic? I wonder what reply the doubters whom trusted scaffs opinion will come back with .. ?

Now this just make me go mad, why oh why you reply on such a way? Scaff has take a lot of time to make his post as technical and unbiased as possible and after you read it the only thing that you can express is in a "I told you so, I win, you loose, I was right you loose Whoo Whoo" way. Scaff hasn't give anyone the upperhand on the discussion, he just put the facts from RL to everyone's view, to make our opinions more educated. The exchange of opinions is what makes this interesting, no side is 100% right, I think we as a hole could ask for more from PD. One can't embrace one tire (pre or post update) model as THE ONE if GT5p is a testing ground we better say Hey it's not there yet PD! and we have more than stubborn attitudes to back it up.

 

[panjandrum]

So while the overall grip levels are around what I would expect them to be, the behaviour of the tyres once the level of grip has been exceeded is wrong. Over the limit road tyres are far more snappy and prone to oversteer than race tyres are, which is just plain strange to me.
Regards

Scaff

You're no physics nerd? Uh hu...

I didn't expect to be back here, but I see you've finally taken a in-depth look at things.

Thanks for your input. I think the paragraph above may explain what some of us are feeling and seeing. It certainly makes a lot of sense to me. I think it does a very good job of also explaining why people are having such dramatically opposite reactions to the update.

 

[iam220]

Now this just make me go mad, why oh why you reply on such a way? Scaff has take a lot of time to make his post as technical and unbiased as possible and after you read it the only thing that you can express is in a "I told you so, I win, you loose, I was right you loose Whoo Whoo" way. Scaff hasn't give anyone the upperhand on the discussion, he just put the facts from RL to everyone's view, to make our opinions more educated. The exchange of opinions is what makes this interesting, no side is 100% right, I think we as a hole could ask for more from PD. One can't embrace one tire (pre or post update) model as THE ONE if GT5p is a testing ground we better say Hey it's not there yet PD! and we have more than stubborn attitudes to back it up.

No, there IS a side that is 100% wrong, and that's the side that said the grip levels are less realistic and the game is now arcade. Grip progression was never brought into this discussion and is something that GT5P ALWAYS got wrong (pre or post update), in fact it is something that most sim games get wrong ( I think the only games that get this right are LFS, netkar and Iracing, but that's an entirely different discussion).

Besides, you can't really draw any one conclusion based on what Scaff said about grip progression. All that was said is that N tyres are more forgiving then slicks, and that is not so in GT5p. That can mean three things:
1) N tyres have the correct grip progression, S&R tyres have incorrect grip progression.
2) S&R tyres have correct grip progression, N tyres have incorrect grip progression.
3) All tyres have incorrect grip progression.

I never said that this update had the perfect tyre model all I said was this update was a step in the right direction. PD did not change the grip levels for GT5p to be more accessible, they changed the grip levels for GT5P to be more realistic. This was the argument that was carried out throughout the 19 pages of this topic and the people whom argued that PD made physics changes for the sake of making it easier for newbies were wrong. simple.as.that.

 

[Scaff]

This is a sad sign that GT5 is based on "effects physics" and not "simulated physics". Due the fact that PD's uses a "blackbox" engine, no one outside PD will know exactly how their engine functions. In addition, there are so many variables missing from this game which I doubt will be in the final release.

I donb't actually agree that its a sign that we have effects based physics rather than simulated physics, based on what GT5P has shown to date I would actually come down on the side of simulated physics as being the more likely of the two.

All sim physics engines handle tyre grip levels through the use of Pacejka models, if these are incorrectly used you can still have simulated physics, just working incorrectly.

You're no physics nerd? Uh hu...

Guilty as charged.

Besides, you can't really draw any one conclusion based on what Scaff said about grip progression. All that was said is that N tyres are more forgiving then slicks, and that is not so in GT5p. That can mean three things:
1) N tyres have the correct grip progression, S&R tyres have incorrect grip progression.
2) S&R tyres have correct grip progression, N tyres have incorrect grip progression.
3) All tyres have incorrect grip progression.

I was actually trying to say more than that, maybe its didn't come across as it should have done.

N grade tyres = Pacejka curves (tyre grip models) for road tyres drop off steeply once the grip limit is exceeded, this would result in a rapid transition to understeer and power oversteer would need to be forced. A definate transition to oversteer through understeer would be the dominant trait here. This was not the case prior to the update and is still not the case after the update. Personally I'm not convinced that much, if any, changes were made to N tyres during the upgrade.

S grade tyres = A definate change has occured post update to these tyres, the drop off after grip has been exceeded is more pronounced that its was and now a slight transition to understeer is seen before oversteer takes over.

R grade tyres = An even more clear change has occured here, with a very clear understeer characteristic occuring once the limit has been reached and before any transition to oversteer.

Now while it is impossiable to talk in anything but general terms about these traits (the only way to quanitfy this would require Pacejka curves used by the GT5P engine and compare them with the real ones - fat chance of that happening - ever), we should not see this trend. As the tyres get more race orientated we should see a more to less understeer over the limit (less of a drop off in grip level) and as a result a quicker transition to oversteer.

Quite clearly this is not the case, with almost no understeer present in the N grade tyres and bags of understeer present in the R grade tyres. Its almost as if the grip levels are right for these tyres but the Pacejka curves have been transposed. If the over the limit characteristics for these two grades were reversed it would follow the trends we would expect to see in the real world.

Road tyres (N) would have the lowest level of grip and drop into understeer the quickest once that grip level had been exceeded, with track day tyres (S) offering more overall grip and a slightly shallower drop-off over the limit and full race slicks (R) offering stupidly high levels of grip and a shallow Pacejka curve drop off, meaning less understeer but a quicker transition to oversteer.

As it stands I'm actually very impressed with the S grade tyres (spent quite a while with S2's on a 430 at Suzuka last night), the car felt right in terms of grip, transition and overall balance. However N grade tyres are just far too twitchy over the limit, with almost no understeer present at all, even when the load is gently built up in a constant radius corner, and R grade tyres should not drop into bags of understeer the second the grip level is exceeded.


Regards

Scaff


BTW To all - I am only going to discuss my observations regarding what I feel is happening with the physics in GT5 and how it compares with my understanding and experience of the real world. I will not take sides on this one, so please do not try and take my opinion as 'supporting' one camp or the other. Thanks.

 

[Ardius]

Personally I'm not convinced that much, if any, changes were made to N tyres during the upgrade.

Just a little note: in the update notice prior to the update, it only mentioned that they were "increasing controllability" of the S1-S3 and R1-R3 tyres. So, yes, they probably didnt change anything regarding N class tyres.

 

[Rocket Punch]

I was meaning to say towards "effects physics", in stead of based on.

Personally, I simply don't buy how using the industry standard "Pacejka" yields opposite results. Besides we don't even know if PD is using the true "Pacejka" or a dummy downed version like what Brain Beckman did with Forza.

 

[Scaff]

I was meaning to say towards "effects physics", in stead of based on.

Personally, I simply don't buy how using the industry standard "Pacejka" yields opposite results. Besides we don't even know if PD is using the true "Pacejka" or a dummy downed version like what Brain Beckman did with Forza.

I agree that we don't know if they were used (I used them as a very handy tool to illustrate how different tyres behave when grip is exceeded), nor do we know if they were used if it was done so correctly.

What I am happy to say is that I don't believe that the 'over the limit of grip' behaviour reflects exactly what would be expected in the real world.


Regards

Scaff

 

[BLACK86]

Just a little note: in the update notice prior to the update, it only mentioned that they were "increasing controllability" of the S1-S3 and R1-R3 tyres. So, yes, they probably didnt change anything regarding N class tyres.

its true they did say s-r class tires but im 99.9% sure n1 tires have been affected, infact im 100%. i did many laps on n1's at eiger with the 350z before the update, i know max speeds i could get with the old n1's through corners. the new n1's are different, most noticable difference i felt was the back end being harder to spin/spin out upon accelerating out of a corner.

hmmm so maybe it wasnt just tires after all that were tweaked

 

[Timppaq]

its true they did say s-r class tires but im 99.9% sure n1 tires have been affected, infact im 100%. i did many laps on n1's at eiger with the 350z before the update, i know max speeds i could get with the old n1's through corners. the new n1's are different, most noticable difference i felt was the back end being harder to spin/spin out upon accelerating out of a corner.

hmmm so maybe it wasnt just tires after all that were tweaked

Same here.. The car is easier to handle, but still slower times are coming (for me). I'll get back to this.. I'll make a proper try keeping this in mind.

 

[kart racer]

( SIGH ) no change of venue tonight.

 

[Lernatix]

well its a different bucket, same **** but... definitely easier (arcade) power slides. 8(

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

However I still think the update does not suck or physics got dumped down, as a matter of fact I spin out more often than before, it just feels more 'racing' now .
What sucks is the 🤬 penalties, why do I get a 10 sec! ramming penalty for someone ramming in my back with his 🤬 GT-R ???
Also I get penalties for the slightest touch of another car, but if I get punted off the road real bad, the punter just drives along as nothing had happened ...
Someone tell when this has been fixed please, because until then I give up the online **** of GT5P!