Viability of older race cars from GT6 in GT Sport (Honda NSX LM Race Car)

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Skygrasper550, Sep 29, 2018.

  1. SestoScudo

    SestoScudo

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    Thats ridiculous are you factoring Technology and regulations along with rules??? F1 GTR competing with GT3 or GTE cars does not make sense.

    No the P1 GTR or the FXXK cannot compete with GT1 cars. Both cars are made for track days not racing in motorsport.

    The more groups the better. I dont want the Audi R10 coming into GT Sport only to get smashed in GR1 because PD was too lazy to make a class dedicated to LMP1s of 2008 to 2010.
     
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  2. AlanH49

    AlanH49

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    The quickest short-tail F1 GTR qualifed at Le Mans in 3.48 in 1996. That’s bang on GTE pace. In GT Sport they’ll all be using the same tyres so BoP to drop the power of the F1 GTR and it’s an ideal fit. Same for the F40 LM, Jaguar XJ220C, Venturi 600 LM.

    None of the later generation GT1 cars are an ideal fit for Gr.2. Same for trackday hypercars. But if they’re going to fit anywhere in the class structure Gr.2 is the place. Such cars are too quick for Gr.3 but too slow for Gr.1.

    And yes. The R10 should go in Gr.1 alongside cars like the 908. There’s not enough variety to split further currently. The only split I would back would be moving Group C into their own category. They’re 30+ years older than the latest LMP1’s. Bring the Porsche 956/962, Peugeot 905, Toyota 88 C-V, then they could be split off. There are plenty of other Group C cars to add further along the line.
     
  3. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    After all the Gr.3 debate that has just happened, I'd like to shake things up a bit. The conversation shifted a bit towards Gr.2, which coincidentally is what I'm planning on featuring next. When the 3 GT500 cars were announced along with the new Gr.2 class, there has been a bit of talk about some people wanting the Zytek Greaves LMP2 to make a comeback, and thinking it could be classed under Gr.2 as well. I'd taken both a benchmark lap time using the NSX GT500 and the Zytek's lap time, and the results may come as a shock to some people.

    Car: Honda RAYBRIG NSX CONCEPT-GT '16
    Lap Time: 1:46.916
    Course: Nurburging GP
    Tires: Racing:Soft
    BoP Settings: Enabled



    Car: Zytek Z11SN Greaves Motorsport '13
    Lap Time: 1:49.376
    Course: Nurburging GP
    Tires: Racing:Soft
    Power: 449hp
    Limiter: 100%
    Weight: 900kg



    The Zytek Greaves LMP2 is a fantastic LMP race car, no doubt. Superb all-around performance, 50:50 weight distribution, top-notch grip at low speeds and a low-slung purpose-built aerodynamic body. Sadly however, all of that is pretty much inadequate when going up against current GT500 cars because of one simple thing: downforce. Downforce, downforce, downforce. LOTS OF IT. Even though the Zytek LMP2 is a whopping 150kg lighter than the NSX, that is not enough to offset a massive 10kph difference in mid-speed corners, thanks to the mountain of downforce the NSX can generate. Super GT cars have always been known to be cornering monsters, and the NSX is a testament to that.

    So, for those of you hoping to have the Zytek Greaves in LMP2, sorry to burst your bubble. It might have to end up in the dreaded Gr.X, or hopefully in its own class.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  4. Stephan

    Stephan Premium

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    That's too bad considering how I want the R10 to come to GTS. I wanted a open top Gr.1 car. :lol:

    Then again I can really see them bringing back the Audi R10 since it's a premium since GT5.
     
  5. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    At least this combo makes sense. There were talks back then about GT500 being on the same pace as LMP1, citing their lap times on Fuji. Although I call bull on it, I would've been convinced had they challenged LMP2/DPi instead
    You have to remember that the GT500 cars possess nearly a 200hp difference between them and the LMP2. Try it again with 550-600hp and maybe you'll get a more similar time
     
  6. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Call bull all you like buddy. In the last season of the old SuperGT chassis they were tenths of seconds off LMP1 privateer pace. In the first year of the DTM chassis they were faster that the Audi R18. By the following year they were slower again. In the meantime LMP1 and LMP2 have got quicker and SuperGT hasn't been a match since.
     
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  7. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    Can you give me some lap times? Trust me, I want to believe in SGT and their ability to go against LMP1. When SGT dared WEC I was waiting for it to happen for so long until I gave up on it a few months ago. Give me hope!

    Edit: My wording could've been better. Though before you said that, I'd still call bull on their statement. They hyped it up for too long for nothing to materialise
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  8. ThePotatoKing

    ThePotatoKing

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    Let's see:
    1: Basically the Z06 LM is a fictional version of the C6.R , which is in the same category with the M3 GT2. So if the BMW has returned to the game and is also competitive , i don't see why the Corvette wouldn't.
    2: This is too ambitious imo. The Lister is more than 15 years older compared to the Gr.3 race cars currently in the game. That means it's 15 years behind in aero , tyre technology , fuel consumption etc. So yes , it would be nice to have it back ( it was a favourite car of mine too) but it wouldn't stand a chance to the Gr.3 cars in the game right now.
    3: Same with the Diablos. It might be a GT1/GT2 car like the BMW , but the Diablo is once again , too primitive compared to the BMW (which is a 2011 car btw) , being in the same class doesn't save the situation.
    4: Even the current gen V8 Supercars can't compete with GT3 racecars , i don't see how a 2002 model would stand a chance.
    5: The Jag's specs are indeed similar to GT3's specs (550hp , 1300kg weight) but let's not forget that horsepower and weight aren't th only things that make some classes faster than others (otherwise we wouldn't have the Group C problem we have right now) and one of those things is once again , downforce , something that this Jag is way behind than the current Gr.3 cars. The Zonda is in a weird place where has specs above the Gr.3 class but too low for Gr.2. But since it is comparable in pace with the Ford GT LM Spec II , it might be balanced.
    6: Yes PD , bring that car back !
     
  9. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    SuperGT website. All previous results are listed by session for each race. Most Fuji races will not match weather conditions and should be discounted.

    https://supergt.net/?ln=en
     
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  10. Stephan

    Stephan Premium

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    I feel like the Z06 LM is better compared to this rather than the C6.R. The ZR1 on the other hand for me it feels like a better comparison to the C6.R.
    [​IMG]

    Corvette C6 Z06-R GT3.
     
  11. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    Are there any tracks I can compare them against other than Fuji?
     
  12. RZQSPEED

    RZQSPEED

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    GTS: Fuji and Suzuka.
    GT6: Those two plus Motegi.
     
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  13. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    Oh right! I can test them on the game instead :lol:
     
  14. Tired Tyres

    Tired Tyres

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    Not against WEC. That's the only track they share.
     
  15. SestoScudo

    SestoScudo

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    I do actually wish we got the C5.R, C6.R both GT1 and GT2 variants along with the C7.R GTE.
     
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  16. elston87

    elston87 Premium

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    Some of my personal picks:

    1. Gran Turismo Red Bull X2014 Fan Car

    [​IMG]

    One of my most-favorite cars to drive since the introduction of the Red Bull X1 (now the X2010) for Gran Turismo 5, alongside the enhanced X2011 Prototype. Gran Turismo 6 saw the return of said car and made a successor called the X2014. As for Gran Turismo Sport, the other two cars of the family are present, but now we're just missing the extreme machine. Or, they could surprise us with a X2019. Pls...


    2. Tajima 2012 Monster Sport E-RUNNER Pikes Peak Special

    [​IMG]

    We already have a Pikes Peak special in the game, why not another? A more modern and recent car that can compete with the Audi (if not probably destroy it)? It was a blast to drive in both off-road and the rain in Gran Turismo 6 with that insta-power for crazy slideouts and deep corner attacks, but alas, we don't have rain in Gran Turismo Sport.


    3. 2011 Monster Sport SX4 Pikes Peak Special
    (Pictured is the base model)

    [​IMG]

    Another Pikes Peak runner. Another off-road car, you say? Rallying in Gran Turismo Sport gets a lot of flak for how unrealistic it is, and always has been since Gran Turismo 4 I could argue, but that doesn't mean it isn't fun. These insanely high-powered specialty vehicles were always fun to run off-road with their extreme levels of power.


    4. DeltaWing

    [​IMG]

    Highly improbable (if not impossible) that we will be seeing this car return. It already went through some licensing conflicts while Gran Turismo 6 was nearing release. To say that this unique racing machine could see a return anytime soon would be a fantasy to tell...


    5. Honda HSV-010

    [​IMG]

    What if you take a Formula Nippon engine and stick it in a GT500 car? You get an awesome SUPER GT machine. Unfortunately I don't see this car returning due to the present SUPER GT machines now outclassing this car due to newer technologies and regulations. The successor to this car, the Honda NSX CONCEPT-GT, is already in the game.
     
  17. Lord of Tranz

    Lord of Tranz

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    Oh, fully agree on how it's all going, lol. Less and less are full games being released.

    With this game they really didn't help themselves with the lesser content all round upon release so they've had to add old stuff to build the variety. Tracks particularly, IMO, just a backwards step to not have started this game with all GT6 had and then any new would actually be new. We've still not seen a good handful of favourites (real or fictional) arrive still.

    Trial Mountain, Midfield, Grand Valley, Spa, Ascari. Still surprised to have seen 4 DLC's to return to and those tracks still aren't here, lol. Bit of a shame.

    (Better wording edit).
     
  18. AlanH49

    AlanH49

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    For whatever reason PD where on the back foot this gen having released GT6 on PS3......after PS4 launched. Not only that, they had to start from scratch, to build PS4 (and beyond) quality assets.

    That does put them in a much better position for PS5 where much, if not all, of GT Sport’s content will be brought over. That will put PD and the GT franchise on a much better footing next-gen. That’s without factoring how they are now using outsourcing too.
     
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  19. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    Well, I can't. The Zytek LMP2 doesn't have any available power upgrades.

    [​IMG]

    Even if I could, adding power wouldn't be much of a help, because as I've pointed out in my comparison video, downforce played a large role in that 2.5 second difference. Despite the 200hp disadvantage, the Zytek LMP2 has a 150kg weight advantage. From what I can tell both cars have more or less similar straight-line acceleration, it's just that the NSX is faster coming in at braking points because it's able to carry a lot more speed through corners and can much brake later due to, you guessed it, downforce. I can however, increase the downforce on the Zytek. The stock values are 450 F/680 R, and these are the maximum values:

    [​IMG]

    I'll do a few laps, and if my findings are significant enough I'll post another video for the Zytek.
     
  20. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    1-3 could be placed in Gr. X. Gonna be some fun cars to drive

    4 is very interesting... I dunno where that car could slot in. Definitely not Gr. 1, but probably still too fast for Gr. 2...

    5 can't compete with the current GT500 cars that we have
     
  21. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    Ahh right I forgot you can't upgrade that car. But yeah, it'd be nice to see you do a bit more laps in the Zytek. You could squeeze some more time out of it with its stability

    The power deficit shows itself in the main straight. The NSX can push itself to 270 km/h whereas the Zytek can only do 263. At the start of the two videos the Zytek is only doing 200-ish, whereas the NSX is in the region of 240. I think it shows that the NSX has way better acceleration but eventually gets impeded by the drag it generates, allowing thr Zytek to catch up to it a bit in the top speed region. Maybe even just 50hp could equalize these 2 cars together. That is, if there was an option to do this
     
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  22. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    Did a few more laps with the Zytek with max downforce, and my lap times only got slower. I agree with a 50hp increase, that would go a long way with a car this light and it would definitely help compensate for the higher downforce settings.

    Interesting... hmmm...... I don't really have a proper experience driving the Deltawing, but if it's faster than the Zytek Greaves LMP2, it *might* just slot in Gr.2 quite nicely. I just finished getting footage from a list of potential Gr.4 candidates so I can't get some lap times with this car right now. I'll try this weekend.

    Agreed, as I shall demonstrate in my next post featuring this car.
     
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  23. ShiftingGears

    ShiftingGears

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    They need to re-add the Dino, Nova and the GTB from GT6. Cars in that middle ground that were new when PD first modelled them but are now 7 years old are a no from me.
     
  24. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    Time to go back to potential Gr.3 candidates, this time with pre-2014 Super GT cars. If the Zytek-vs-current GT500 is a foregone conclusion to some people, this older GT500-vs-current GT3 is much more so. Still, for those thinking that the pre-2014 GT500 cars would slot in nicely with Gr.3, the answer is: No. I went ahead and used what is arguably the best of the pre-2014 GT500 cars, and their performance is far superior compared to current GT3 cars, especially on the handling and downforce area.

    Car: Honda RAYBRIG HSV-010 '12
    Lap Time: 1:53.308 (-2.694 against benchmark)
    Course: Nurburging GP
    Tires: Racing:Soft
    Power: 493hp
    Limiter: 100%
    Weight: 1100kg



    Like what I said with the NSX, Super GT cars are cornering monsters. Unless PD introduces a new group to cater to pre-2014 GT500 cars, we won't be seeing this or any of them any time soon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  25. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    Amazing just how much faster the newer GT500s are
     
  26. RZQSPEED

    RZQSPEED

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    Though if they somehow were in Gr.3, their downforce values will be the standard F350/R730 setup. Maybe BoP can significantly increase the weight of these cars. So, how about the late 90's/early 2000s JGTC cars stack up against your benchmark, then?
     
  27. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    The difference in performance is insane. We're talking more than a 5-second difference in lap times.

    I dunno, the GT-R GT3 had the same 350 F/730 R setup in GT6, but the HSV-010 has the 400 F/650 R setup.

    I can already see a massive 100kg ballast going the Honda's way, maybe heavier.

    Haven't tried them yet. Super GT wasn't really on my mind in these comparisons because I know what they're capable of. I used only the HSV-010 as a prime example, and after that I recorded footage for a batch of potential Gr.4 cars like the Lexus IS F CCS-R and the Scirocco GT24. If I were to get back to Super GT with the era you've given, I'd pick none other than the '99 Pennzoil Nismo GT-R to record.
     
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  28. RZQSPEED

    RZQSPEED

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    What I mean is that if the older GT500 class cars were in Gr.3 in GTS, their default downforce settings will be changed from 400 F/650 R to 350 F/730 R, just look at the GT by Citroën and the Ford GT LM. Both cars used to have a 400 F/650 R downforce setup back in GT6, but once they were adapted into Gr.3 in GTS, they get the standard-issue 350 F/730 R downforce settings used on every single Gr.3 car.
     
  29. Skygrasper550

    Skygrasper550 Premium

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    Time for a thread bump. I was gonna post stuff for Gr.4 but the content included in the incoming update is just too good to pass up :)

    As everyone knows by now (I hope), the upcoming November update includes a rather peculiar set of vehicles, chief among which are the older pre-2014 Super GT GT500 cars. I already did a video on the HSV-010 which many would regard as the fastest pre-2014 car, but I got that lap time in stock form. No power or weight restrictions of any sort. This time, from the 3 cars I've chosen the SC430, and immediately slapped a hefty 100kg ballast on it. Power was kept at 100% with no upgrades, and the results are rather surprising.

    Car: Lexus DENSO Dunlop SARD SC430 '08
    Lap Time: 1:55.297 (-0.704 against benchmark)
    Course: Nurburging GP
    Tires: Racing:Soft
    Power: 479hp (Limiter at 100%)
    Weight: 1200kg (Ballast at 100kg)



    I should point out that I also tweaked the suspension and differential to suit my driving style, and did a tranny flip as well to maximize the power band. That being said, the lap times are incredibly close to the Gr.3 benchmark, and with a bit more fiddling on the weight or power to simulate BoP it should be in line. I dunno about you but this SC430 and its rivals are a great fit for Gr.3 . Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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  30. Alpha Cipher

    Alpha Cipher

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    Damn I didn't remember that the old GT500s were only running 470-ish hp. I'd be on the fence if they added it in Gr. 3... maybe I'll accept it because of your testing, but they added it in Gr. 2.

    I have no words honestly. I don't know what's going on anymore