Virgin Australia Supercars Championship - Archive

[05XR8]

At the AGP, Nissans were quick. Caruso is a bit timid. Moffat is pretty much NISMOs quickest driver. More consistency from him and less trouble from Todd, would see the squad a bit better.
It is true Rick always says they need more pace. I rarely hear that from the Hornet crew. Somehow those engineers are doing a better job to tune the Hornets than the JD crew. I think it's the drivers. We''ll see when Buncomb gets there. If he can pull an Ekstrom and move that JD Altima up the field, that will tell all.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that the 888 car is the best and the others suck. There are 2 888 chassis available though, (Tekno, LDM) so it seemed a good example.
Well, if you buy a Nissan it's a Kelly racing car, so that's a problem right there. I doubt a new team would be able to improve upon what the Kelly's have done, they would be looking for a "quick out of the box" package. Also, name one race this season where Nissan have been at the front. The other Marques have all been up there at one point or another. I'll take proven performance any day thanks.

I didn't misunderstand you, I realize what you were saying. I'm just saying that as far as Holden goes...it is basically Triple 8 and then there is every other Holden.

NISSAN Finishes this year:

Mid top ten each race in Adelaide

Winton Race 8, Race 9 both with top tens

ITM 500 all the Races had a Nissan in the top 10 with three of them having more than one and race 13 having 3.

Perth 14 and 16 both were top 10 again

last event two of the sprint races saw them in the top ten yet again with one of those having 2 of them in it.

In fact they've ran more in the top 10 than Erebeus that you claim is better. I think you're not giving them a fair shake...not sure why maybe you're getting bad info after each race that is making you spite them who knows.

At the AGP, Nissans were quick. Caruso is a bit timid. Moffat is pretty much NISMOs quickest driver. More consistency from him and less trouble from Todd, would see the squad a bit better.
It is true Rick always says they need more pace. I rarely hear that from the Hornet crew. Somehow those engineers are doing a better job to tune the Hornets than the JD crew. I think it's the drivers. We''ll see when Buncomb gets there. If he can pull an Ekstrom and move that JD Altima up the field, that will tell all.

This all day. When you look at the data it is the Hornets that usually have had a better finish when in the top 10 then the JD crew, and that's this year and last year.

 

[aarror]

@LMSCorvetteGT2 By up front I meant top 5s and wins, top 10s aren't that impressive in a 25 car field.
Taking the 2 best cars from each team, here as the results (not counting AGP):
Holdsworth: 1 win, 1 p2-5, 2 p6-10
Caruso: 1 p2-5, 4p 6-10
Davidson: 2 p2-5, 5 p6-10
Moffat: 0 p2-5, 5 p6-10

More top 5s for Erebus (4-1), and more top 10s (11-10). There's my "bad info". I agree with you the Kelly's are holding them back big time. A better team could probably run them further up the grid, but the point that seems to be lost in all this is that Super Black (or any new team really) is not a team that can do that. For them, the Nissan is not the right choice.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

@LMSCorvetteGT2 By up front I meant top 5s and wins, top 10s aren't that impressive in a 25 car field.
Taking the 2 best cars from each team, here as the results (not counting AGP):
Holdsworth: 1 win, 1 p2-5, 2 p6-10
Caruso: 1 p2-5, 4p 6-10
Davidson: 2 p2-5, 5 p6-10
Moffat: 0 p2-5, 5 p6-10

More top 5s for Erebus (4-1), and more top 10s (11-10). There's my "bad info". I agree with you the Kelly's are holding them back big time. A better team could probably run them further up the grid, but the point that seems to be lost in all this is that Super Black (or any new team really) is not a team that can do that. For them, the Nissan is not the right choice.

Problem is now you're moving the goal post considering this is what you just said...

It seems to be the weakest package out there, the Holden is clearly very quick (especially with 888 chassis), the Ford has race winning potential, and Volvo and Merc are consistently in the top 10 (And have won races this year). Nissan meanwhile is fighting amongst themselves at the back.

The Mercedes isn't the right car either...also considering Nissan won before Mercedes, I really don't see how it's a bad car. By your original criteria it's been at the front.

Also it's unfair to take just best 2 cars from each team, it isn't Nissan's fault that Erebus runs two cars, also I didn't count AGP in my original posting.

Mercedes: Top 5- 3; Top 10- 6; 1 win

Nissan: Top 5- 2; Top 10- 16

Also this doesn't even begin to tell the story in how some races Nissan races up the grid more so than the Mercedes seem to be capable of. You said something that wasn't correct you've been corrected in a nice fashion, and you want to keep pushing against what is reality. The cars are capable of doing more but someone else would probably need to come in to help them get there.

 

[aarror]

Last year isn't this year mate, and this year everyone but Nissan have won and that's a fact you can't dispute. (This year being the key words in my first post, which you seem to have missed).

I never said the Mercedes was the right car, I only said I wouldn't take the Nissan and I've stated my reasons why. If they're going to get support from FPR, the Ford is by far the best choice.
I don't have any desire for this to become an aarror vs lmscorvette thread, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Last year isn't this year mate, and this year everyone but Nissan have won and that's a fact you can't dispute. (This year being the key words in my first post, which you seem to have missed).

I didn't miss anything, I saw it but it doesn't change the fact that Nissan did win in the COTF which hasn't changed that much this year. The only difference is aero upgrades really. If you have that big of an issue with Nissan that's fine. Also Mercedes are by far the least consistent car on track, yes they've won a single race and good on them. Does that make them the better car especially when you take in to consideration their average?

Also can you quit with the whole "you're clearly not reading my posts" bit. It's tried and worn out.

never said the Mercedes was the right car, I only said I wouldn't take the Nissan and I've stated my reasons why. If they're going to get support from FPR, the Ford is by far the best choice.
I don't have any desire for this to become an aarror vs lmscorvette thread, so I'll leave it at that.

That seems to be the implication though and yes I see your reasons for not taking the Nissan but based on why it doesn't hold water. And this isn't me vs you, it's a forum this is a discussion, if you want to go blog about it with out any waves there are methods to do that. We have plenty of people here that understand a discussion without being muffed, so why is this an issue with you?

 

[aarror]

@LMSCorvetteGT2
I don't have any issue with Nissan. Sorry if I was giving off that impression. I tend to support drivers more than teams/manufacturers, for V8s it's McLaughlin and Reynolds. Don't care which brand wins.

If I were a team owner evaluating which brand I would be looking at the most recent results, not last years. 1 year's development can make all the difference, just look at the difference between Mercedes this year and last.
Also average finishing position: Nissan: 15.7 Mercedes: 13.25. Just cause you threw in that "considering their average" sentence. For fun Volvo is 15.7, just shows how much Dahlgren is hurting them.

I only said "missed part of my post" once, but sure, I'll try to avoid it in the future.

Merc being the best car was never my "implication", not sure what gave you that idea. My opinion on Nissan being the weakest car is just that, my opinion. And based on the least top 5s and wins of any manufacturer (despite having twice the cars of 2 of them), it seems to "hold water" all right.

Not quoting so I have to scroll through less, but I structured it to match your paragraphs above.

Also what does muffed mean, is it an American saying? Haven't heard it before.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Put better drivers in the Nissan's and watch them go...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

@LMSCorvetteGT2
I don't have any issue with Nissan. Sorry if I was giving off that impression. I tend to support drivers more than teams/manufacturers, for V8s it's McLaughlin and Reynolds. Don't care which brand wins.

Yeah I'm pretty much the same in all racing series outside of Sports car racing (WEC, TUSC, LMS/AsLMS/ELMS)

If I were a team owner evaluating which brand I would be looking at the most recent results, not last years. 1 year's development can make all the difference, just look at the difference between Mercedes this year and last.
Also average finishing position: Nissan: 15.7 Mercedes: 13.25. Just cause you threw in that "considering their average" sentence. For fun Volvo is 15.7, just shows how much Dahlgren is hurting them.

I'd be looking at all results from the two for the past couple years, also Volvo is a special case (not to sound hypocritical here). Yes Scotty is fast and a great driver and most likely a future champion but that doesn't mean the car isn't good because Dahlgren isn't good. Teams are obviously going to take note that this is a different series for him and his first year compared to the Kiwi that's been building toward this series.

Merc being the best car was never my "implication", not sure what gave you that idea. My opinion on Nissan being the weakest car is just that, my opinion. And based on the least top 5s and wins of any manufacturer (despite having twice the cars of 2 of them), it seems to "hold water" all right.

Where did I say you said that? All I said is the implication seems to be that Mercedes seem to be or could be the right car and more so over Nissan, but I disagree since Nissan has been far more consistent. No they haven't won but they obviously are capable if given the right engineers and drivers. The car has a good foundation it just needs better backers as you've agree with.

Also what does muffed mean, is it an American saying? Haven't heard it before.

It's a western English term, I've heard English people use it and Americans. Means handling a situation in a troublesome manner, badly in other words.

 

[aarror]

Yeah, the Volvo example was to show that the average positions thing was kind of subjective. Does show the Merc is better than the Nissan based on the statistics though.

But really, it all depends on who you have running/driving the car. As has been pointed out, the Norton guys do a better job than the JD guys, and if you put Whincup or Lowndes in the Nissan it'll be further up the grid than it is now. Likewise if you stuck the Kelly's at 888 they might struggle to keep at the front.

Unless you're counting last season I still don't get the "Nissan has been more consistent" thing, I've provided statistics showing Mercedes has been more consistent this season. And I don't see why you would use last season as an example, seeing as it was a development year for both and the Mercs had very little time to get the cars on the grid. They're way more refined this season.

And while you argue "they are obviously capable given the right driver and engineers", if The Mercedes had he right drivers and engineers they would be faster too. Gotta use what you have to compare, if you get hypothetical it becomes a game of what ifs.

 

[05XR8]

Overall, I agree with NISSAN having the better package. That car makes up places quickly. Erebus drivers are stiill lacking drive out of corners. They have enough grunt but, still get reeled in.
As much as I love the E63, as a team owner, I'd go the Volvo then the Altima(easy to say with 'monopoly money'). NISSAN definitely have the budget to develop the car.

If Warburton convinces AVESCO to implement changes from 2016, it may give Ford the push they need to invest.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Yeah, the Volvo example was to show that the average positions thing was kind of subjective. Does show the Merc is better than the Nissan based on the statistics though.

But really, it all depends on who you have running/driving the car. As has been pointed out, the Norton guys do a better job than the JD guys, and if you put Whincup or Lowndes in the Nissan it'll be further up the grid than it is now. Likewise if you stuck the Kelly's at 888 they might struggle to keep at the front.

Unless you're counting last season I still don't get the "Nissan has been more consistent" thing, I've provided statistics showing Mercedes has been more consistent this season.

And while you argue "they are obviously capable given the right driver and engineers", if The Mercedes had he right drivers and engineers they would be faster too. Gotta use what you have to compare, if you get hypothetical it becomes a game of what ifs.

The problem with your statistic is it only gives two of the four Nissan cars. A team coming to the series isn't going to decide on just the two car you picked. It will look at all four cars and then stack up the results and see if the performance is there. If it is then they have a likely choice. Also Mercedes doesn't even have half the top ten runs as Nissan which would tell me that they are equally on par. However, the season isn't finished so it's to early to say either way I think.

Also I've already said that Mercedes are lacking in equipment, and would do better if they had the backing. I'm not using what ifs though for one group over the other as you seem to think. Although you've said you're not against one over other and I mostly believe you, you keep having this undertone of being in favor of one over the other or trying to make sure Mercedes aren't given a bad deal from me.

Either way these are the "what ifs you have to look at". The fact remains Betty is trying to get more and more help, while Nissan already have it because Nissan are there trying to give it. Why would anyone in their right mind joining a competitive series race the car that gets the least care or money?

Overall, I agree with NISSAN having the better package. That car makes up places quickly. Erebus drivers are stiill lacking drive out of corners. They have enough grunt but, still get reeled in.
As much as I love the E63, as a team owner, I'd go the Volvo then the Altima(easy to say with 'monopoly money'). NISSAN definitely have the budget to develop the car.

If Warburton convinces AVESCO to implement changes from 2016, it may give Ford the push they need to invest.

I have to agree Volvo (if I was in the market) would be the car I'd look at before anything. Then Nissan and then Ford or Mercedes, with Holden being last.

 

[aarror]

I picked the two best Nissans against the two best Mercedes. I'm really not sure why only using two cars makes it unfair. Having more cars doesn't make that car better. All it does is give a bigger sample size. If anything, I should have used the best and worse Nissan to make an average. And yeah, it's early in the season but for a team entering next year they need a decision fairly soon.

I would go Volvo, Ford (only if I could get FPR support), Holden (with a Tekno style 888 support), then Nissan barely ahead of Mercedes for last. I'd only approach those two if I had no other option. Nissan goes ahead because I may be able to convince them for money, where as Mercedes isn't really interested.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Money isn't the problem at Nissan. I thought we came to the conclusion a long time ago it was the drivers.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I picked the two best Nissans against the two best Mercedes. I'm really not sure why only using two cars makes it unfair. Having more cars doesn't make that car better. All it does is give a bigger sample size. If anything, I should have used the best and worse Nissan to make an average. And yeah, it's early in the season but for a team entering next year they need a decision fairly soon.

The thing is there are only two Mercedes out there. Also having more cars doesn't make it better but gives a person more to take away from the car than having less. And the bigger sample size was my point, if we're looking at this from a team owner perspective (which is what I've been doing since I engaged this conversation). Also since they are entering fairly soon, that is all the more reason to take into consideration last years results even against your earlier vehemence.

I would go Volvo, Ford (only if I got FPR support), Holden (with a Tekno style 888 support), then Nissan barely ahead of Mercedes for last. I'd only approach those two if I had no other option. Nissan goes ahead because I may be able to convince them for money, where as Mercedes isn't really interested.

Why would you think that you would get FPR support though or even that much support from Holden? That is why many of us would probably pick the newer makes over those two, because just like in any major series at some point the manufacture funnels most if not all there attention into a single team that they think can do the best. While the other teams become just the other version of that manufacture. Why as a new team would you just want to be another Holden or another Ford?

EDIT: Nissan have plenty of money they don't need convincing they need a team that will show them the money being spent is worth it by coming up with more top 5s and top 3s.

 

[05XR8]

Slapping AMG on the E63 is a huge step. Its a start. Fan support could most definitely had a play why MB allowed it. MBA could give a rat's...
Nissan mentioned they are making Bathurst their must win or racing the big race for best result moving forward. I wouldn't doubt MB Germany making MBA conform now through to the end of the enduros.

 

[aarror]

I wasn't saying Nissan needs to put more money in, I was saying as a team owner they seem like a brand that would give financial support (even if only minor), where as Mercedes isn't giving factory support/cash.

I was basing the Ford/FPR support off the fact that Radisich is hoping to run a wildcard entry at Bathurst this year backed by FPR, which could lead to a relationship in the future. Holden seems willing to support teams, and 888 has a few spare chassis. If you went Ford/Holden you would get a good car out of the box, to prove to them (or another brand) that you're worth supporting financially.
Volvo is the ideal choice, it's a fast car and you could probably get factory support if you ran a Swedish driver.

 

[05XR8]

looks cool

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's ridiculous

It's not as deliberate as the article makes it out to be. VESA aren't trying to stick it to the 12 Hour. They have simply consulted with the teams as to when the season should start and when it should end, and have had to work around the AFL Grand Final to avoid a clash with the Bathurst 1000. It's unfortunate that the test day should clash with the 12 Hour, but it was little more than an unfortunate coincidence, rather than a deliberate act of sabotage.

Besides, the drivers who are affected committed to V8 Supercars first.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Slapping AMG on the E63 is a huge step. Its a start. Fan support could most definitely had a play why MB allowed it. MBA could give a rat's...
Nissan mentioned they are making Bathurst their must win or racing the big race for best result moving forward. I wouldn't doubt MB Germany making MBA conform now through to the end of the enduros.

Which is what I was saying some time ago in the thread before they even announced it that Bathurst is probably what they're throwing the house at. Just like they'll do in upcoming years in WEC but focusing mostly on Le Mans glory.

 

[Spacegoat]

Super Black confirms Bathurst wildcard.

Super Black Racing has confirmed that it will field a wildcard entry in October’s Supercheap Auto Bathurst 1000.

The squad announced via local television network TV3 this evening that it has submitted a wildcard application to run a Ford Performance Racing prepared Falcon.

As previously reported, the Paul Radisich-led squad is hoping to join the V8 Supercars Championship on a full-time basis from next season.

Although no drivers have officially been named by the squad, Dunlop Series driver Andre Heimgartner has been heavily linked to one of the seats.

Super Black is the second team to confirm a wildcard application for Bathurst behind new Dunlop outfit Dragon Motor Racing, which last week expressed doubt that it will be granted an entry.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

FPR confirm that they are considering the Mustang as a potential replacement for the Falcon:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/06/30/ford-performance-racing-evaluates-mustang-model/

 

[05XR8]

DOHC V8 Mustang on the rise? Will AWD be allowed on Aussie tracks once more? BMW M4 anyone?

 

[05XR8]

http://www.speedcafe.com/2014/07/03/erebus-crowdfunding-efforts-postponed/

They finished 19th and 8th last year(Goldsworthy DNF'd the weekend). Should be a strong result with better cars. They need to get both cars back in the top 10 in points.

 

[05XR8]

Let's see what NISSAN can do this weekend. I think it will be a Frosty and Whincup weekend.

 

[Spacegoat]

I think it will be a Frosty and Whincup weekend.

I remain hopeful that HRT will up be somewhere near the front. But honestly I'd be surprised if anyone aside from Frosty and either of the two Red Bulls win a race this weekend. Erebus were quick in the practice sessions today, think they could be in for a good weekend too.

 

[Azure Flare]

FPR confirm that they are considering the Mustang as a potential replacement for the Falcon:

I haven't been paying too much attention lately, are 2-door cars being allowed to be used being considered in a few years?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I haven't been paying too much attention lately, are 2-door cars being allowed to be used being considered in a few years?

VESA are starting to consider what direction the sport will take from 2017. They haven't ruled anything out as yet.

 

[05XR8]

Deleted

 

[CodeRedR51]

What's with the Camaro?