W.M.A. International Touring Car Championship-Season Wrap-Up!

[cnd01]

A little accidental contact every now and then isn't a big deal especially in a five lap all out sprint. When your intentions are to make contact is when I have a problem. Tsukuba is a physical track even when everyone races clean. Contact is never condoned, but I realize that sometimes in the heat of battle people make mistakes. You will probably see me smoke the tires in turn one a few times. The outside pass can be done in the hairpins if you hold the other person close to the bottom. The chicane costs each driver at least a half second if you go through there side by side. Only inside moves work on the sweeper at the end. Personally I like to pass in turn 1. Set them up coming out of the last hairpin on the previous lap. Make them drive in hard on the sweeper to defend, and then get a good run off.

 

[luvtadrive]

signed up & would like to to enter '04 elise 111R--wt 740kg.-- hp.276. -- MR --No cnd, i'm not following you around. Cant get into the car regististration form(am I supposed to be able to do so /) so Iam posting here hoping to get in.

 

[NizmoDr3]

MrM ... how come the 135i list on your profile has 343hp? ...

 

[freshseth83]

The Elise is too light, so choose another car luv. And my GT86 is Super Red 2 (A Toyota color from the ucd).

 

[cnd01]

signed up & would like to to enter '04 elise 111R--wt 740kg.-- hp.276. -- MR --No cnd, i'm not following you around. Cant get into the car regististration form(am I supposed to be able to do so /) so Iam posting here hoping to get in.

No problem buddy. The minimum weight is 1100 kg so the Elise is too light. 276 bhp is within the limits though.

 

[anirishnirvana]

hmm, how close are we to needing 2 divisions?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

hmm, how close are we to needing 2 divisions?

No problem buddy. The minimum weight is 1100 kg so the Elise is too light. 276 bhp is within the limits though.

The Elise is too light, so choose another car luv. And my GT86 is Super Red 2 (A Toyota color from the ucd).

MrM ... how come the 135i list on your profile has 343hp? ...

Irish: we already have 20 registered drivers. The problem is, though, that certain drivers are continually absent. There are still some spots available, because I'm taking some drivers out of the series, and adding other drivers into the series.


Nizmo, sorry, everyone has to tune the car (the power limiter is reset to 0 when the car is put online)


Seth/cnd, thanks for the info to luvtadrive. That should help him understand the competitive nature of the series.

Also, I'm running the "Touring Car" name loosely, more as a reference to the WTCC race style; three races, two long races, and a sprint race. Also, all of the cars are generally Touring, Sport/Super Touring, or Grand Touring cars. For example, the Honda Civic and Focus ST are touring cars, while the RX-7 and RX-8s are Sport Touring, and the 135i and Z4 are a little bit more Grand Touring cars.

 

[cnd01]

Irish: we already have 20 registered drivers. The problem is, though, that certain drivers are continually absent. There are still some spots available, because I'm taking some drivers out of the series, and adding other drivers into the series.


Nizmo, sorry, everyone has to tune the car (the power limiter is reset to 0 when the car is put online)


Seth/cnd, thanks for the info to luvtadrive. That should help him understand the competitive nature of the series.

Also, I'm running the "Touring Car" name loosely, more as a reference to the WTCC race style; three races, two long races, and a sprint race. Also, all of the cars are generally Touring, Sport/Super Touring, or Grand Touring cars. For example, the Honda Civic and Focus ST are touring cars, while the RX-7 and RX-8s are Sport Touring, and the 135i and Z4 are a little bit more Grand Touring cars.

This series has a little of everything, and that makes it so amazing that every car can compete on such an even level.

 

[NizmoDr3]

Nizmo, sorry, everyone has to tune the car (the power limiter is reset to 0 when the car is put

Also, I'm running the "Touring Car" name loosely, more as a reference to the WTCC race style; three races, two long races, and a sprint race. Also, all of the cars are generally Touring, Sport/Super Touring, or Grand Touring cars. For example, the Honda Civic and Focus ST are touring cars, while the RX-7 and RX-8s are Sport Touring, and the 135i and Z4 are a little bit more Grand Touring cars.

Damn and here I was hoping that my weight handicap was going to be rectified ... lol
Was just curious on the name pick that's all ... You make a valid point though MrM ... so with so many drivers then why don't you consider running 3 classes based on that perspective?
I ask too many questions ... lol

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Well, all three types of cars have been made competitive, against each other. The Touring cars have an equal chance against the other cars, but, in different places. This means: a Focus ST has the same chance to win as the BMW 135i, but, the 135i will be better on tires, and through corners (at the apex, due to RWD) and the Focus ST will be faster on corner entry/exit, because of the stability of the front-wheel drive.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I haven't paid much attention to the team thing to be honest. I'd be willing to join a team but I for sure won't make every race and that would just hold someone back from winning a points title. If you're on a team do you both have to run the same car or just the same colours?

Sorry, for the double post. I was reading through the last page, and I forgot a very specific post I had to make.


The series schedule allows for three races to be missed, and made up. There are three "make-up rounds" that people can use to improve their points (regular season points replaced, if the Make-Up Round goes better) and for drivers who missed a race, to complete the Round on a later date.


It's open to EVERYONE.

Also, I had the same idea; that people could run two cars, in the same colours, but, unfortunately, that idea just doesn't fit with team work. Team work, works out better when two drivers are in the same car.

Also, considering that there are two RX-8 drivers in the series, it looks like you and Hawkeye122 could be teammates, both driving RX-8s. It's obviously up to you two.

Finally, I'm putting the 86GT specs as 256 @ 1200, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[freshseth83]

You're killing me with your rule changes. 1200kg? The GT86 lacks power already and you want it at 1200, I was running 1120kg and 260hp and I still got ate up on the straights by the FWD cars. They have 16hp more than the Toyota, and weigh less. I was able to brake later than them though, but now people are complaining that I wasn't 'ahead' of their rear wheels by the turn? Come on now. If you brake early that's not my fault. I don't have to pass you at the beginning of the turn. I can do it half way through if there is room. The first chicane at Monza is wide enough for two cars to go through side by side. If my top speed sucks, I have to make due where I can, that's in braking zones and the corners.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

It's not rule changes.

I asked you to confirm the specs. "Correct me if I'm wrong."



Then, I have been saying, for about a week "If your front tire's behind the rear tires of the car you're passing, you don't have the right to try to outbrake them."


Scroll back through the previous three-four pages.

 

[freshseth83]

I read it before. I'm talking about people complaining when they have a power advantage and less weight, like they can't pass on the straights. Don't be a hog and try to muscle someone out the way in a turn. If someone is beside you give them courtesy and space. If your car is faster on the straights, the other car is most likely better in turns. That was the original trade off in this series. Keep that in mind if you're seeing someone next to you.

I told you the specs to the GT86 on the last pages as well. So you should know. I was still testing it to see how it stood up against the other car's times. I tried 250hp and it's way off pace. I tried 1200kg and it loses it's cornering ability. So 260/1120- It's decent, even if not as fast in a straight.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

If a car with 236 hp is following a car with 276 hp, the 236 hp car is faster. We found that out at the High Speed Ring. Whatever you're talking about, isn't true. The cars were tuned to reach the same speed on the straights and in the corners. For some reason, RWD cars get more aerodynamic efficiency than FF cars. The RX-7 still gets the same speed on the straights, in spec, as the FF cars, it seems. I've never blown past anyone on the straights without the draft (in practice or qualifying, there is no draft.)

Your Toyota is fine in the straights. I don't see what you mean, about this "I had to divebomb because my car's not fast enough on the straights." It seems to me, like you just are impatient.

 

[polarbear345]

." It seems to me, like you just are impatient.

+1

And for more evidence, shall I bring up the "this is bs" and then Seth leaving?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Nah... we don't have to clarify things as clearly with Seth, as we do with James.

I just have to call him out, at some point, since people are sending me PMs. The content of PMs should always be secret, or else this happens. And, this, I imagine, isn't pleasant.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You're killing me with your rule changes. 1200kg? The GT86 lacks power already and you want it at 1200, I was running 1120kg and 260hp and I still got ate up on the straights by the FWD cars. They have 16hp more than the Toyota, and weigh less. I was able to brake later than them though, but now people are complaining that I wasn't 'ahead' of their rear wheels by the turn? Come on now. If you brake early that's not my fault. I don't have to pass you at the beginning of the turn. I can do it half way through if there is room. The first chicane at Monza is wide enough for two cars to go through side by side. If my top speed sucks, I have to make due where I can, that's in braking zones and the corners.

1200/260 would put it close to the RX-8, another RWD premium car, in terms of power and weight. The advantages for the premium RWD's are better and much more even tire wear and cornering, the trade off is a little less power. I can't speak for Mel but when I was first looking through the car list my first thought was, "He's put a lot of thought into this, there are trade-offs in all the cars to some degree, some cars will do well on some tracks and some will do well on others." I was down almost 10km/h on the Civics at GVE Reverse and could not pass in a draft even on the long front straight, in fact I don't think I made a single drafting pass in all the races, but still managed a couple of good finishes. At 1120 kgs and 260 hp I would guess it gives a real advantage to the RWD premium cars that would be tough to to overcome and a real disadvantage to the FF's with their increased and unavoidable, front tire wear.

And just to clarify, it's not "ahead of the rear wheels by the turn" it's "ahead of the rear wheels at the point that braking begins" which is usually quite a bit sooner the turn.

In a series like this where the cars are so well matched (thanks to Mel's hours of grinding away), everyone has to realize it's much more like Nascar than it is F1 (prior to this year anyway) What is going to win races and the championship ultimately is consistency, patience and strategy, not all out speed. There are probably going to be 6-8 guys, maybe more, capable of winning every race, but only one will win. They guys at the top of the points will be those that consistently finish in the top 5, top 3, because I highly doubt anyone will be winning consistently the competition is just too good and the cars are too close.

Beyond the points and the title, we also have to realize that everyone is here for the same thing. Good. close, squeaky clean, competitive racing, no matter where they are in the field. This comes from mutual respect, patience and everyone adopting and adhering to a general set of rules regarding our conduct on the track, in the heat of battle.

 

[Storm_SP17]

I used a Lotus Elise at 220 bhp @ 1060kg, then 215 bhp @ 1060 kg, then 205 bhp @ 1060 kg. Unfortunately, all three times the car blew everyone away in the corners, sucked balls in the straights and STILL is too fast. I've accepted that the car won't be used, period, but maybe I'm just good with Lotus', though...

 

[cnd01]

I read it before. I'm talking about people complaining when they have a power advantage and less weight, like they can't pass on the straights. Don't be a hog and try to muscle someone out the way in a turn. If someone is beside you give them courtesy and space. If your car is faster on the straights, the other car is most likely better in turns. That was the original trade off in this series. Keep that in mind if you're seeing someone next to you.

I told you the specs to the GT86 on the last pages as well. So you should know. I was still testing it to see how it stood up against the other car's times. I tried 250hp and it's way off pace. I tried 1200kg and it loses it's cornering ability. So 260/1120- It's decent, even if not as fast in a straight.

That is where you as a driver can make up the difference yourself. Each car has its positives and negatives. My Focus was 276 bhp and 1186 kg but could only gain mimimal amounts in the draft on the civic and 86GT. The FTO pulled away from me in the draft. I do agree some car regulations are just because the "faster drivers" are running them. I think the RWD cars need to be slowed down because they have superior tire wear. You just have to find your cars advantage and use it to strategically win races. This series isn't all about being the fastest which in real life how many times does the fastest car actually win the race? I won the pole at GVE, but I only had one podium.

 

[freshseth83]

If a car with 236 hp is following a car with 276 hp, the 236 hp car is faster. We found that out at the High Speed Ring. Whatever you're talking about, isn't true. The cars were tuned to reach the same speed on the straights and in the corners. For some reason, RWD cars get more aerodynamic efficiency than FF cars. The RX-7 still gets the same speed on the straights, in spec, as the FF cars, it seems. I've never blown past anyone on the straights without the draft (in practice or qualifying, there is no draft.)

Your Toyota is fine in the straights. I don't see what you mean, about this "I had to divebomb because my car's not fast enough on the straights." It seems to me, like you just are impatient.

Don't put words in my mouth. You weren't even close to me at Monza, so I don't know what you're seeing. I don't divebomb. 260hp isn't as fast as 276hp. Not when the car weighs more and doesn't have an aerodynamic advantage. So If anything, you're wrong. I told you before, the GT86 doesn't have a lot of top end power. Maybe instead of assuming things you could drive the car for yourself.

+1

And for more evidence, shall I bring up the "this is bs" and then Seth leaving?

-1, I left and said this is BS because my car was mad slow, then I realized I hadn't oil changed it and was running low on power. Again, get the facts straight.

That is where you as a driver can make up the difference yourself. Each car has its positives and negatives. My Focus was 276 bhp and 1186 kg but could only gain mimimal amounts in the draft on the civic and 86GT. The FTO pulled away from me in the draft. I do agree some car regulations are just because the "faster drivers" are running them. I think the RWD cars need to be slowed down because they have superior tire wear. You just have to find your cars advantage and use it to strategically win races. This series isn't all about being the fastest which in real life how many times does the fastest car actually win the race? I won the pole at GVE, but I only had one podium.

The first thing you said is my point. Some cars don't gain as much in the draft as others. Of course a couple people here would like you to believe as much, but it's just not the case.

I'd appreciate the comments about divebombing and other crap to be kept to yourself. Especially coming from you Melancholy. You're not one to speak as you don't have a very good reputation with that aspect from the other guys you race with in another series. I made myself clear, if you brake too early, that's not my problem. Out braking is a common overtaking move in motorsports. If you don't realize that I guess you haven't watched much racing. I know the strong points on my car, but if someone brakes 20M short of where they can brake and I'm not behind them, what am I supposed to do? You don't follow someone who brakes earlier than you, You go through your normal braking distance and come to the turn before they do.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I used a Lotus Elise at 220 bhp @ 1060kg, then 215 bhp @ 1060 kg, then 205 bhp @ 1060 kg. Unfortunately, all three times the car blew everyone away in the corners, sucked balls in the straights and STILL is too fast. I've accepted that the car won't be used, period, but maybe I'm just good with Lotus', though...

The Elise has a huge cornering advantage over all other street cars and so to make it competitive lap time wise, it'll have to be seriously underpowered. That alone would make it unsuitable for the series because it won't be in sync with the rest of the field on most tracks. I'd put the Evora in the same category, the NSX's etc. For good, close racing the cars have to be pretty close in terms of acceleration and cornering speed.

 

[cnd01]

Don't put words in my mouth. You weren't even close to me at Monza, so I don't know what you're seeing. I don't divebomb. 260hp isn't as fast as 276hp. Not when the car weighs more and doesn't have an aerodynamic advantage. So If anything, you're wrong. I told you before, the GT86 doesn't have a lot of top end power. Maybe instead of assuming things you could drive the car for yourself.
-1, I left and said this is BS because my car was mad slow, then I realized I hadn't oil changed it and was running low on power. Again, get the facts straight.

The first thing you said is my point. Some cars don't gain as much in the draft as others. Of course a couple people here would like you to believe as much, but it's just not the case.

I'd appreciate the comments about divebombing and other crap to be kept to yourself. Especially coming from you Melancholy. You're not one to speak as you don't have a very good reputation with that aspect from the other guys you race with in another series. I made myself clear, if you brake too early, that's not my problem. Out braking is a common overtaking move in motorsports. If you don't realize that I guess you haven't watched much racing. I know the strong points on my car, but if someone brakes 20M short of where they can brake and I'm not behind them, what am I supposed to do? You don't follow someone who brakes earlier than you, You go through your normal braking distance and come to the turn before they do.

U Mad Bro?

 

[freshseth83]

Never that , are you?

 

[cnd01]

Never that , are you?

Bro I ain't even Mad

 

[Johnnypenso]

. I made myself clear, if you brake too early, that's not my problem. Out braking is a common overtaking move in motorsports. If you don't realize that I guess you haven't watched much racing. I know the strong points on my car, but if someone brakes 20M short of where they can brake and I'm not behind them, what am I supposed to do? You don't follow someone who brakes earlier than you, You go through your normal braking distance and come to the turn before they do.

Again, real racers have spotters and much better mirrors and generally much more feedback as to what is happening on the track. They can do things on track and and still race side by side, that we cannot. And they are professionals, not guys sitting on their couch with a $40 piece of plastic in their hand trying to negotiate their way around a race track.

Point being, sure, in real life you can dive under someone, outbrake them, nudge them, move them around a bit, it's all good. But this isn't real life, it's a video game, with limited vision, limited feedback as to what's happening all around you. As such, you need a much stricter set of rules, otherwise what you get is race 3 from Grand Valley East Reverse, a crash fest where guys who if you asked would say they were outbraking, but in reality they were divebombing, using other cars as brakes and guardrails, and ruining everyone else's enjoyment of their race, in pursuit of the lofty goal of winning a virtual race.

If your objective is to outbrake guys in the GT86 or any other car, from 30 feet back, then you're probably going to be disappointed by the infractions you pile up at Tsukuba and most other tracks. The rules of this series, as I understand them, require you to gain some speed in the draft to attempt a pass, outcorner someone to get a good run into the next corner and some draft assistance to get by, or to pressure someone into a mistake and slide by. You can also utilize a tire wear strategy, pit strategy and a team strategy. Seems to me like plenty of tools available for racecraft and whoever capitalizes on them, will do well. Whoever chooses to play by their own rules, will probably not be very happy after a race or two and maybe be looking for somewhere else to ply their trade.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Again, though, the reverse grid is a benefit. Each race is equal. If you can't make a clean pass on someone, wait 'til the next race, and TADA you're in front of that person.

It's not hard to win a championship with consistent top 5s. It is, however, hard to win a championship with penalty after penalty, and crash after crash.


If you don't finish a race in the top 5, and finish in 16th because of a horrible crash, and you lose more points then you make, YOU'RE LOSING POINTS. End of discussion. Just to prove my point, I'll show you a video of a guy being a bit "brave" at Silverstone, and losing a championship after crashing. Silverstone, BTCC, 1992.

 

[cnd01]

Again, real racers have spotters and much better mirrors and generally much more feedback as to what is happening on the track. They can do things on track and and still race side by side, that we cannot. And they are professionals, not guys sitting on their couch with a $40 piece of plastic in their hand trying to negotiate their way around a race track.

Point being, sure, in real life you can dive under someone, outbrake them, nudge them, move them around a bit, it's all good. But this isn't real life, it's a video game, with limited vision, limited feedback as to what's happening all around you. As such, you need a much stricter set of rules, otherwise what you get is race 3 from Grand Valley East Reverse, a crash fest where guys who if you asked would say they were outbraking, but in reality they were divebombing, using other cars as brakes and guardrails, and ruining everyone else's enjoyment of their race, in pursuit of the lofty goal of winning a virtual race.

If your objective is to outbrake guys in the GT86 or any other car, from 30 feet back, then you're probably going to be disappointed by the infractions you pile up at Tsukuba and most other tracks. The rules of this series, as I understand them, require you to gain some speed in the draft to attempt a pass, outcorner someone to get a good run into the next corner and some draft assistance to get by, or to pressure someone into a mistake and slide by. You can also utilize a tire wear strategy, pit strategy and a team strategy. Seems to me like plenty of tools available for racecraft and whoever capitalizes on them, will do well. Whoever chooses to play by their own rules, will probably not be very happy after a race or two and maybe be looking for somewhere else to ply their trade.

Once again this is the preseason. Last night was a test session. No reason to take this too seriously. When the regular season starts, there will be real penalties and a championship up for grabs. I suffer from the same over competitiveness problems. I just have to realize that it is the preseason right now. I am sure everyone will piss someone off at some point during the year. Some more than others, but that is where the ToS comes in.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Don't put words in my mouth. You weren't even close to me at Monza, so I don't know what you're seeing. I don't divebomb.

Hahahah, so, that's why you had to pass me, by braking late, from 2nd, and then realized that you had lost the draft, and I won? And, Johnny followed me?

You went from 2nd, to the lead, and then to third, because of your dive bomb. I still won, either way. I wasn't the one who brought it up. However, you lost, at Monza, because you tried a pass, and it backfired. Sure, you made it through the corner clean, but, I held the outside line, got a good run, got draft, and helped Johnny, when he drafted off of both of us. 💡 You're mature enough to have a child, you're mature enough to play a video game 💡

 

[FlyinHawaiian77]

Im gonna stick up for us RWD guys. Its more work for us to keep up with you guys in the straights. You guys can close the gap way faster than we can. Feels like any advantage we may have in the corners is totally negated coming out of the corners into the straights.

I'm not familiar with corner names on Tsukuba. But I want to give an example on the corner right before the back straight. I could be going in with a car, maybe a car and a half lead coming out. A FWD would eat me up halfway down that straight. If the roles were reversed it would take me 3/4 of that stretch to even think about making a pass. By then its better to duck back behind and play it safe.

Im not saying I want corner advantage and straight line advantage. I know both drivetrains have their own advantage. But I do feel the FWD advantage is just a little higher. Can we make them so its equal?