Whats up with this new penalty system its absolutely ridiculous

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Boris353, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. Matty28

    Matty28

    Messages:
    262
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yeah sounds like it. I usually play AC which doesn't really have a penalty system for contact. It does give equally crazy penalties for corner cuts but only sometimes. I have done some iRaces but and I vaguely remember a penalty system flashing at me but I still haven't figured out how to get out of the beginner races without spending a load of money so stopped playing it. Still got 6 months left on it... I don't think I've ever had a drive through on it but tbh I was probably languishing 3 laps down. I like that 4 wheels over whites thing because it's nice and precise and I can avoid it. The car contact one sounds pretty mental especially if light brushes count.
     
  2. mclarenLB

    mclarenLB

    Messages:
    1,019
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yeah lets just say that contact with stefounzy would've definitely been a 4x... for both of you :lol:

    There's absolutely issues with GT Sports track limits (see below a lap of Maggiore that made me feel dirty) and as a result of those dodgy track limits penalties can feel random, but they aren't. I'm pretty familiar with the track limits on most tracks and what I can and can't get away with and lets just say Maggiore lets you off with murder and Monza gives you a 6000 second penalty per inch over the whites :lol:

     
    Sven Jurgens and mthomas_95 like this.
  3. Retiree

    Retiree

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    Australia
    This is so crazy you don't have to make a mistake to lose SR. I started on S at the update and haven't been near it since. Got smashed all over and ended at B, worked back to E, then won 1 race and got 2 2nds and 2 3rds did not hit anyone or get hit and did not leave the track but ended back at B. I give up!!

    Plus for instance, when 2 guys in front of you collide going over Skyline at Bathurst, hit the fence and bounce back across the track, why should you get a penalty for running into them? You can't pull back the bloody stick and fly over them!!
     
    Matty28 likes this.
  4. Matty28

    Matty28

    Messages:
    262
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Yeah Lago is funny. It didn't even occur to me 0:22 was possible until I watched the replay of the top time in practice. I was like "oh.. that's why i'm 2 seconds off the pace" lol. Still didn't know the rest of that was possible.
     
    mclarenLB likes this.
  5. NommyNom

    NommyNom

    Messages:
    220
    Just did a race, tired of these dive bomb first lap heroes, no idea what they’re trying to achieve when obviously there’s tons of traffic so you need to go a bit slower, but at least I saw a few SR:S drivers drop below SR:A where they should be.
     
    Robben likes this.
  6. polizei

    polizei

    Messages:
    1,049
    Location:
    United States
    Omg it's like all my experiences. Glad I'm not crazy!

    The sad thing is that the people too lazy to watch your video are too lazy to read your post too!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2018
    Matty28 likes this.
  7. Chevy Heavy

    Chevy Heavy

    Messages:
    232
    Location:
    United States
    But are we really? From what I understand some penalties are handled differently for DR/S and A then they are for DR/B and below. Correct me if I'm wrong. I just going by what I've read on these forums.

    If PD is are not monitoring this or any other GT forum then why the rules change in the first place? Is this not the best GT site on the web, I think it is? I find it hard to believe that enough people have had direct contact with PD to warrant these radical changes in the way penalties are handed out. Is it not feasible that they would check here to see what people's reactions to the changes are?

    Famine, I'm really interested in hearing your opinions on the changes. I don't mean a 'These are the rules set forth and we must play by them' or any other PC answer. I'm just curious about your honest opinion. If you can't comment, I understand. I'm not trying to start a war of words.
     
  8. war_ops_84

    war_ops_84

    Messages:
    111
    You're trying to compare yourself to the world's best professional racers... interesting.

    Stop trying to compare the world's premiere racing to your online gaming. It's laughable.

    Those racers are actually risking injury and death when they race.

    Those races are preceded by weeks and months of rigorous preparation by the racers, their teams, and the track officials.

    And when those races actually happen, there are paid professionals whose entire job is to assess every little detail of the race.

    For these reasons, they are able to regulate the races in the most sophisticated and nuanced way possible.

    No, it's not a false equivalence, no matter how many times you repeat yourself.

    A ball going out of bounds is against the rules of basketball. The penalty is a loss of possession. This is what the official rules of the NBA say.

    No, just mistakes that are clear violations of the rules of Motorsport, like driving completely off the track, cutting corners, and cutting off other drivers.

    Your SR and especially your DR have no bearing on the logical merits of your position. None.
     
    Alpha Cipher likes this.
  9. zaxs

    zaxs

    Messages:
    471
    Location:
    Croatia
    Here are two races, and look what pd is doing to fair racer:



    Edit 2: first race at min 13, second at 33


    SAD, PD, this is just, sad!


    Edit

    There was number of doubtful penalties I got until now, but this is just too much.

    Almost every my race is on my channel and there is nothing to hide, Fair Play first was always my moto, but I barely finished second race, bcs PAIN, pain in my heart - real pain and emotional one...
    But I stayed Fair to last meter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    polizei likes this.
  10. PSN:And-War

    PSN:And-War

    Messages:
    495
    So I have had a fe races now, and I think I prefer it, im getting less penalties when people hit me, a big pet peeve of mine has people break checking you once they pass or on a straight for a speed boost, god I cant wait for the day GT has a full o damage model. the only thing I notice is now you can't take libs with cutting the curbs but you have to draw a line at some point.
     
    Robben likes this.
  11. VeeDoubleU

    VeeDoubleU

    Messages:
    1,273


    So here I see 2 cars battling ahead, so I brake a bit earlier in Turn 1 for safety, then when on the outside (just naturally happened due to the car ahead being forced wide and onto the inside of Turn 2), I slow down (from 74mph to 68mph in a section I should really be keeping a much more constant speed, or even accelerating), I give plenty of room, however the other driver drives on the racing line as if I don't exist, so we make really small contact.

    I get a 2 second penalty for that contact, and even though the text at the bottom says the other driver did as well, I can tell you that the other driver got no time penalty. After the race, there was no red dot on the name. So not only does GT Sport penalise people with higher DR (I have S, the other driver has A), but it also straight up lies.

    I did what I could to avoid an incident, and even when we did have the 'incident', it was the merest of touches, yet I get penalised and the other driver got no time penalty. So it isn't even an equal system. I'm fine receiving an orange SR for these sort of incidents (as long as both drivers do), but to receive time penalties on top of it, especially when they aren't equally penalised, is downright stupid. iRacing have a great model. The odd 4x due to an incident that isn't my fault is fine. Plus light contact like this would be a 0x, like a warning. It's the unequal time penalties and the penalties for ridiculously light contact that need to be addressed for S/S drivers.

    (P.S. Previous 2 second time penalty was for another driver purposely forcing me into the wall after the bus stop chicane)
     
  12. _ApexPredator

    _ApexPredator

    Messages:
    528
    No, we penalise when a driver is driving so recklessly that his only options are a) have a horrible crash, b) almost drive straight into another car on driver's door, narrowly avoid this and instead spear off the track in front of them.

    You can protest all you want, but your driving does not belong in SS (from what you have shown me). I'm sure up until now it has, but you are going to need to adjust if you wish to remain SS. Whether you take that on board is up to you. Good luck out there.
     
    TenderLoins, cjr3559, Mr616 and 2 others like this.
  13. Robben

    Robben

    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I do agree that it's imperfect. However, it is a game. IMO, you just need to drive cleaner and stay on the track. As others have said: your driving is very aggressive, so no wonder you get a lot of penalties (and also cause penalties for others).
     
    TenderLoins, Mr616 and Mirror_man like this.
  14. mthomas_95

    mthomas_95

    Messages:
    704
    You can't really judge someone's overall driving just from a video trying to highlight penalties, which naturally picks out incidents. I'm sure we all have a minute or two which can make us look like E/E noobs :lol:

    After a first stint battle at Brands with the new penalty system which we overtook 4-5 times without penalty, I'd say he's definitely an SS driver who has understandable complaints about aspects of the penalty system being overbearing. I hated it as well after a bad race but I've been fortunate enough to avoid the midfield since.
     
    Matty28 likes this.
  15. _ApexPredator

    _ApexPredator

    Messages:
    528
    True, which is why I qualified the statement with:
    I take your point though.

    The mature approach.

    Also true, but I wouldn't include those moments in a clip whilst trying to argue how much of a pro I am and how poor & unfair the penalties I'm being awarded are.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  16. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    66,533
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    That's one of the rules now, yes. It was part of the 1.13 update and stated (well... eventually stated) in the patch notes:
    GTPlanet is a tiny, tiny fraction of Gran Turismo players. It's certainly the largest - and we think the best - Gran Turismo site, but our total member count isn't even a tenth of the people who bought GT Sport. Our active core membership may not even be a thousandth of the people who bought GT Sport. By our nature, we're the slightly obsessive people who will keep playing the game until the next one comes out (and probably until the servers shut down). We're not the people who fund the game's development; we're not who Polyphony Digital has to please so that they buy this game, making the business case to Sony for the next one so that Sony funds it.

    We're also not an official channel for PD or Sony. If PD or Sony monitor this site - and that's really up to them to say* - it's in an unofficial capacity only. Sure, they may pick up on ideas, thoughts and opinion here, but they do not actively engage with this community.

    It's probably not hard to see why. Some of the comments in this thread have been pretty bitter and toxic, and if I didn't have to read them, I wouldn't. If a PD or Sony employee made themselves known on here, we'd have to invent a new unit of time to account for the gap between that happening and them being deluged with offensive, whining, angry, pleading, abusive and/or creepy messages. It would be Facebook-bad.


    But Facebook - and Twitter - do have official Sony/PD engagement, an active presence and a guarantee that what you say will be read. It's literally the job of the social media managers who operate these channels (who are probably either regional brand managers, or the people who report to them) to read your comments; they're much more likely to come up in a weekly meeting than "here's 2.5 pages from GTPlanet where one guy complains about penalties not being like real life, a couple of other people complain about his driving, and then they just trade barbs for a couple of days without any progress".

    It's not that I can't comment, but that I don't care.

    Games have rules. Sometimes they're bloody stupid, sometimes they aren't, but everyone playing plays to the same rules. You learn the rules and use your skill to be good at the game within the rules. If you can't live with the rules, you don't play the game - or you can lobby the developer to change the rules so that you can live with them. That takes a good long while, usually.

    GT Sport's rules look like they do. We all know that if we drive somewhere that isn't tarmac, have contact with a car or barrier, or overtake under yellow flags, we might get a penalty for it - and if we don't, we won't. Whether PD makes the detection system more or less sensitive, or makes the penalties tiny or huge, this is the system and we've all known it since day 1. Or Beta day 1, apart from the yellow flag thing.

    I can live with that most of the time, but sometimes I can't and won't play as a result. That's usually circuits like the Tokyo tracks (although I found them good for my DR/SR research for GTP), Willow Springs, or any of the fictional tracks in the reverse direction, and cars like VGT, Gr.1 or Gr.3 because kids love to go fast and pick the fastest cars even though they can't drive them.


    *We did, once upon a time, have a couple of dedicated forums set up by official request. They were never truly followed up; some of the contents did appear to form the basis of articles at the Pit Stop Blog, but nothing happened on here.
     
  17. Robben

    Robben

    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    United Kingdom


    Ahhhh, don't you just love the internet :)
     
    Matty28 and Alpha Cipher like this.
  18. _ApexPredator

    _ApexPredator

    Messages:
    528
    That remains to be seen :) The consensus at the moment is that the races are getting a lot cleaner, let's see how the OP gets on.
     
  19. Famine

    Famine Administrator

    Messages:
    66,533
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I meant in the discussion on here. At the moment neither party is convincing the other of their position - probably not helped by the tone of their comments - so the discussion is not progressing.
     
    Chevy Heavy and bmxmitch like this.
  20. cleanLX

    cleanLX

    Messages:
    878
    Location:
    United States
    I stopped reading at the top of page 6, but would like to address the penalty for going off track, while not effecting anyone else.
    Since @Matty28 has noted that "in the real world" no one gets a penalty for leaving track...

    Real world risks and time penalties for going off track are as follows...
    Damaged splitter... effecting the entirety of the remaining race, unless a pit for a nose replacement.
    Damaged undertray... effecting the entirety of the remaining race, no pit can fix this, potential race end'r.
    Damaged diffuser... effecting the entirety of the remaining race, no pit can fix this, potential race end'r.
    Burp air from the tires... effecting the entirety of the remaining race, unless a pit stop for tire change.
    Flat tire... requiring a pit for tire change, unless the tire de-laminates on the way to the pit, then, you'll need body work as well.
    Punctured tire... requiring a pit for tire change, unless the tire de-laminates on the way to the pit, then, you'll need body work as well.
    Cut tire... requiring a pit for tire change, unless the tire de-laminates on the way to the pit, then, you'll need body work as well.
    Bent wheel... requiring a pit for tire change, unless the tire over heats, blows, and de-laminates on the way to the pit, then, you'll need body work as well.
    Broken wheel... race ending, cannot make it back to the pit.
    Bent tie rod... effecting the entirety of the remaining race, takes too long to replace, so, deal with it.
    Broken tie rod... race ending, cannot make it back to the pit.
    Grass in the radiator... potential engine failure, race termination, or, pit to have it cleaned out.
    Grass in the brake ducts... potentially a life/death situation, pit it to have it cleaned out, if you boil the fluid getting to the pit, bleed the system.
    Punctured or torn brake line... potentially a life/death situation... will destroy the race due to time in pits to repair/bleed the brakes.

    The above are some of the risks of going off track in real life.
    Now, do we really want to talk about running into walls and whatnot?

    I think the time penalty is easier to deal with myself.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    _ApexPredator, Mr616, bdz_apa and 2 others like this.
  21. J91patriz

    J91patriz

    Messages:
    173
    To summarise:

    We did not get any meaningful content because we were promised this online mega sport mode (which I find dreadful as all races are on those gr 3 4 things) and in the end they managed to also flop big time the only thing they were supposed to do :rolleyes:

    Way to go PD, let this be the last game you release please
     
  22. Robben

    Robben

    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Really?

    No they aren't, in fact most people moan about this fact

    No they didn't

    Please don't
     
  23. J91patriz

    J91patriz

    Messages:
    173
    Another PD freelancer,

    Fine all is amazing, the game has so many cars and tracks I don’t know where to start from and racing is amazing.
    Now please go back on track and enjoy your penalties because you sneezed and put half wheel on the grass

    It’s off topic anyway, but then just kill all road car altogether what’s the point of having them. Gr are easy car to throw around and need no setting, I can see why many like them.
     
  24. Robben

    Robben

    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's not all amazing and yeah there needs to be more tracks, but they are coming as well as new cars. Sport Mode itself is great, I love it and have never got such a thrill or nervousness in playing a game before. If you want play a game of 'winning races on different tracks in different cars' I'm sure GT League will satisfy you.

    I just don't know why you bothered to come on this thread and make a completely irrelevant and negative comment.
     
  25. bdz_apa

    bdz_apa

    Messages:
    116
    Exactly. Truth in each word. That's why we drive cautiously on trackdays IRL.
    Maybe PD can try to swap the penalty system for realistic (or any, as now it is zero) damage? I wonder who would claim then and for what reason
     
    cleanLX and Mr616 like this.
  26. Robben

    Robben

    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    The issue with damage is that it affects the person who is hit just as much (if not more) than the person who does this hitting. Imagine the uproar from people who get bumped from behind, hit a wall, have a crippled car and then get a time penalty :lol: whilst the person who did it just got a scratch
     
    Matty28 and bdz_apa like this.
  27. Mr616

    Mr616

    Messages:
    774
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Great post ^^
     
    cleanLX and Robben like this.
  28. J91patriz

    J91patriz

    Messages:
    173
    Irrelevant I am not so sure, I didn’t know you were the officer around here and you bothered to reply to it too. Negative might be, but I don’t need to tell things differently from what they are. The wait for each release is beyond reasonable, especially when looking at competition.

    Sport mode was sold as the new thing for which people waited so long and if you didn’t notice mood isn’t so rosy on how things work.

    The idea might be cool, but the implementation is definitely not at the moment.
     
  29. Robben

    Robben

    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Your comment is a general complaint, not anything to do with whether you have 'raced under the new penalty algorithm' which is the topic. So, yes, here it is irrelevant.

    And, that's good for you... if you are unhappy there are plenty of other sim racing games which I'm sure you will enjoy.
     
  30. bdz_apa

    bdz_apa

    Messages:
    116
    I know there is no ultimate solution. Not even in real racing series (see how F1 keeps on struggling with enforcing obey of track limits, defence moves a la Max Verstappen on overtaking attempts etc). There are full pro drivers in eg BTCC, they eat and breath race, touch and fight but that's how it goes there, so noone complains. They do it for money, not for play.
    So in GTSport it might be like this:
    - (real) damage
    - the one who is behind is always to blame for any accident (I know this oversimplifies the case, but for God's sake nobody in his/her safe mind would brake test the driver behind him/her)
    - penalty must be served in the pitlane drive through
     
    TenderLoins and Mirror_man like this.