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Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by Boris353, Mar 2, 2018.
Then how did he hit you?
It was the smallest contact, after I'd given up the corner, and he was following the racing line.
It is the very definition of a racing incident, and an incredibly small one at that.
So you were there to take the hit yet you "gave up the corner"? I don't think we're on the same page for what "giving up the corner" means.
Why don't you stop taking responses to your statements, then twisting their purpose to try to make me look bad? It is poor taste.
Fact: You stated "If this were real racing, then you wouldn't have been driving that aggressively in the first place."
Fact: Real racers DO drive that aggressively in the first pace (hence the video).
Conclusion: You are wrong.
Yet you try to twist it and pretend that I am saying I am Michael Schumacher? Why? Because you know you're wrong and are desperate.
Okay, it is actually written that it is a penalty. But to me it is a rule not a penalty.
I'm still, after all this time, waiting for you to give me at least 1 example of any race series giving penalties for someone going wide and losing 2 seconds. And I probably always will be waiting. I'm sure you'll gloss over it again or you'll try to tell me I am comparing myself to Jesus or that I am hurling meaningless insults at you and I'm evil or something.
Yes they do, and I've already explained why. But I'll do it again so other people can see the lack of understanding.
Regarding SR: If you are involved in less accidents, that suggests you know how to race safely, because if you had no idea how to race safely, you would cause more accidents and your SR would go down.
Regarding DR: If you are a fast driver, that suggests you have been driving longer, are serious about it and therefore know how to race safely.
That is why DR and SR go hand in hand if you look at people's profiles.
Technically I could say he was ahead and you should have kept your foot planted to be fully alongside but seriously, what race series would ruin the race for fans, participants and anyone else based on that tiny touch? None. Yeah it definitely lies, I thought Stefounzy got a penalty in my one but on his screen he got nothing. I've realised this idea of it being mutual penalties is often not the case.
So you've got two choices here to maintain logic.
1) Neither going wide off the track nor oversteer qualifies as reckless driving despite the fact they are mistakes that can cause crashes.
2) Both going wide off the track and oversteer qualify as reckless driving because they are mistakes that can cause crashes.
But anyway, what you just said is at odds with what I was replying to. The suggestion was that any mistake should be penalised by the game regardless of its effect.
Again, what do you expect with a penalty compilation?! Most people make 1 mistake across 20 races do they? I don't need to adjust my driving style to remain in S, I just need to be lucky. I'm not sure if with the Wednesday update they toned down how it affected SR a bit but I've stayed at 99 ever since I got back to 99.
But nevertheless to quell the continued suggestions that I can't stop crashing and hitting people here's most of a race I did yesterday (missed the first bit annoyingly, but hopefully @mclarenLB can attest to me not being an idiot in our first "battle"). Btw, McLaren is one of the cleanest drivers I've seen and also has come 3rd in the championships 3 times.
Bet you don't watch it and then later someone tells me I can't stop crashing or stay on the track again. If you think either of the penalties in that video are my fault, you need to reevaluate yourself.
I do drive clean and stay on track as you can see above and I still get penalties. The point is penalties should be given for gaining an unfair advantage and unsporting conduct against another player, which I rarely do and if I accidentally do I let the other player go.
Wish I had that replay to upload, it was a good race, unfortunately with the replay limit it was lost .
As if I am deliberately going for the midfield and asking for trouble. Since the update, I want to get pole and fly off into the distance every race away from everyone but it doesn't work out like that does it?
So as the largest Gran Turismo site it seems to me it's the best place to try to put opinions out to the devs and certainly one of the places they would go to gauge opinion on the game. We are part of the people who PD has to please. Do you know what polls are and why governments and media organisations use them? They don't include all 60m+ in the UK for example. As to whether they care about what people say about the game, I can only hope. But if they want to know what people think, I am confident they will look on this forum.
Yeah but you don't have to be. They may employ social media experts and part of their job is to report on general online opinion. If those people exist and don't come here I'd be surprised. They don't have to post to look.
The comments here are no worse than anywhere else. If they're too scared to read this then they won't read anywhere. Are you saying that if a PD employee came here they would be immediately met with "you ******* little ****" or something? I really am not sure where you are getting this from. They don't respond to anyone on Twitter or Facebook. They may still monitor what people say to them, just as they may still monitor what is said on here. They post on Twitter and Facebook for advertisement purposes. Forums don't achieve that so they won't post. That doesn't mean they don't read.
So what's the problem? We are posting our opinions on the rules. We still want to play the game, but we want the rules to change and find out if anyone else agrees. Seems like the purpose of a forum to me.
As I have shown on probably 10 occasions it's a slot machine - so you can't plan your driving around these rules. There is nothing that guarantees a penalty and no way to know how much of a penalty you'll get. We know there's a risk of penalty at all times that's the only shared thing. But regardless of how crazy the rules are, the game does not implement them properly. And you know, this is one more thing they could do and I wouldn't be complaining so much. If it was clear - 2 wheels outside the white lines = 2 second penalty, at least it is fair and measurable.
Fair comment insofar that they can have the same effect as a randomised penalty. But these are natural, unavoidable, real life problems. There's no one making them happen as a penalty, they just happen. No one said "right sir, for that you deserve a damaged splitter".
It would be better than penalties in my opinion. I mean, if it happened on lap 9/10 and it became a race to see if my car overheats before the end or I had to pit for tyres or I had to drive with a handicap it would feel as I said like a natural thing instead of the game stepping in and ruining it. But I'd probably still rather not have that, mainly because I know it will be as badly implemented as the penalty system.
I tend to think it's a greater crime for an innocent to be punished than a criminal getting away with it, and that gets stronger the smaller the crime. The crime in this case being something like putting a wheel on the grass or brushing someone as they go past. If 80% of my penalties are not deserved that's way way too far in the ball park of doing more damage that good.
No it's based on being so crash prone you have only achieved SR 99 on 6% of the days you've accessed GT Sport. It's funny that me - the complaining terrible driver who can't stop crashing - is the one who is still maintaining 99 SR after the update, while you - the great, safe driver - cannot.
@cleanLX , not hurting me.
@Matty28 , I knew you where going for such an answer. Good job buddy
btw, Fred was giving the finger, not me
You were battling the outside line. You clearly hadn't given anything up, or there wouldn't have been contact. He didn't move across, that was his line. He didn't move onto your line. You tried to tough it out, and paid the penalty.
You know how the penalties work now, and still didn't back out of it. You had nothing to gain on the outside line. Bad risk assessment on your part on that one I'm afraid.
Why are people so eager to put there car in harms way, then when contact inevitably happens, blame the penalty system?
I know it's harsh, but by now I would like to think people were driving to the new rules instead of carrying on regardless and moaning about it.
Right, so you say about people being eager to put their car in harms way. In my video, I brake earlier than I normally do at Turn 1, because I see the 2 cars ahead fighting. So I clearly was trying not to put my car in harms way. Then, during the 2nd part of the chicane, I go to about 5-20% throttle (and go from 74 to 69mph) when I should normally be accelerating with 50-100% throttle. I was trying to avoid a case of being fully side by side on the exit and more serious contact happening. Once again, I tried to get my car out of harms way. Maybe not enough, but I still tried to do the same things which you are trying to say I didn't do.
Another thing, I didn't try to 'tough it out'. Trying to 'tough it out' would involve me continuing to push my car and actually attempt the overtake fully. I quickly realised that I didn't want to be fully alongside on the exit, and hence went slower than I needed to. The only thing is you think I didn't slow down enough. But you are simply wrong to think I was trying to tough it out. I was clearly way slower than I normally would be if I did try to tough it out.
Also, I never said the other driver moved across me. I never said otherwise. I never complained about his movement. Stop putting words into your head.
If there's something I hate more than the penalty system, it is people making stuff up what I say. It is irrelevant to say 'he didn't move across', because I know he didn't do anything wrong.
Even if you think I didn't back out enough (I clearly tried to back out though, just, maybe not enough in your opinion), don't try to make stuff up.
The rules aren't relevant because GTS has no official rules. Any rules we cite are for our own amusement and self affirmation.
The GTP OLR quite clearly allows you to make an overtake mid-corner if the ahead driver makes a mistake. Once overlap is established both drivers have to take steps to avoid hitting the other and to give each other room to continue negotiating the corner as is the case in any and all driving situations. These are long established and well functioning rules for online racing used by dozens of successful race series organized here on GTP. IMO a set of pretty simple and straightforward rules that is specifically designed for online virtual racing is more relevant than a massive, complicated set of rules designed for a specific type of real life racing series, in a type of vehicle that until recently wasn't even included in the game. The point I made earlier still stands though. GTS has no official set of rules so in neither case is there any leg to stand on as to whether one position or the other is "correct". In my case I will always defer to rules made for the specific type of racing that we do, just as they do in F1 or any other racing series. You make up rules for your series based on the types of vehicles involved, the circuits, past experience and other factors. F1 doesn't have the same rules as Aussie Supercars or Nascar, nor should online racing have the same rules as any of those because it's very different in many important ways.
It's what I saw. I didn't make anything up. Forget how fast you usually go. there was a car in the way, fact. I could see the gap closing, why didn't you? You knew the system, and still did what you did, which even if you had got alongside, what next? Outside of the fast right hander? OK
I defended the new penalty system at first but after more races I can see now that it's hot garbage. I just went from SR S to C after the Nations Cup race, enter at your own peril. Get smashed in the rear = penalty for you. I'm done until it's sorted out.
Holy hell I did see the gap closing. That's why, as I've said so many times but you never seem to read...I slowed down from 74mph to 69mph when I should have been accelerating if I tried to continue pushing.
All you can say is that maybe I didn't back out enough, but I did see the gap close, I backed out majorly on the throttle to 5-20%, slowed down etc.
I accept that you may think I didn't back out enough. But I don't accept you trying to suggest I never tried to back out. I saw the gap close. I slowed down. The video shows my speed, and throttle usage, and shows my throttle usage being way less than it would be otherwise, and my speed actually getting lower.
Yeah, maybe not slow enough for you. But stop suggesting that I never even attempted to avoid anything.
I think you're misinterpreting the concept of "enough room".
The trailing driver doesn't establish the allowed exit space of the leading driver due to overlap. Again, I can't see how any reasonable racing could occur if that was actually allowed. You would have trailing drivers unsafely boxing in people at the apex in two-wide driving scenarios. I mean that just doesn't happen as it would be fairly reckless if it did.
The trailing overlapped outside driver should yield the exit line. If considerable overlap still occurs at the edge of the track then the inside driver should allow "enough room" for the outside driver to remain safely on the track. This is pretty basic and straight forward. If you have any rules that state otherwise then I'm all ears for anything you can provide.
@VeeDoubleU, you did everything right.
I think we can all see that now.
So my second race with this new penalty system and I got 13 seconds of penalties, losing me a pretty much guaranteed 2nd but luckily I managed to end up 3rd as everyone else was getting penalties too. 3 seconds of the penalties were my fault as I braked too late although still a harsh penalty because there was very little contact.
As for the other 10 seconds, the first incident a driver behind me hits me on his screen due to lag, you'll notice that on mine there is no contact at all but I still get a 2 second penalty.
Second incident another driver massively out-brakes himself and hits the side of me, I get a 6 second penalty for that dropping me from 3rd down to 7th.
Third incident I overtake around the outside of T1 and the driver on the inside runs slightly wide brushing my car, again a 2 second penalty.
Final note is that the other driver in all 3 of these incidents got a penalty as well.
This is internet arguments boiled down to fact.
I would say that the discussion on the subject had been a an eye opener on several things i did not know, for example what is considered clean racing is really brought out in a new light when penalties grow and has an actual effect. And the imho real discussion is hardly touched, the big difference between the penalties between ranks, what it should could be instead, how you can achieve the same effect* in other ways .
* I think the idea behind the raised penalties on higher DR ranks is to enforce cleaner racing as you go up in rank, leaving more room for the lower/slower ranks while they come to terms with the game.
It's really taken all the fun out of the game for me. I had an almost identical race to you and went from S to A then A to C in the following. I've never had rage from a game but I can feel myself riling up in every race since the change.
Going to stick to trying and failing to get in Top 10 qualifying times on Circuit experience until they sort it out.
I’ve seen a lot of the videos posted here and thought it was ridiculous (and a lot of the penalties were). But I did some races last night and didn’t receive a single penalty even when contact was made. I did the daily races only so I don’t know what the FIA races are like. I’m almost certain I was just incredibly lucky
What DR/SR are you? Penalties get less harsh the lower your rank. Most of the really stupid penalties are in A/S and S/S I think.
I think they have made some improvements. I did today's Race C a couple of times and didn't get given anywhere near as many penalties as a similar FIA race last week (also Gr.4 at Brands). We're talking about being given light taps in the rear by another driver or from someone rejoining the track after an off/penalty - similar incidents in both races but today's felt far more reasonable.
I've cued it to skip the rambling intro
There were still side-by-side battles too, so I'm more optimistic lately.
^ It all depends on the DR rank of the other player. DR is pretty messed up atm with smurf accounts and resets, there is an influx of fast C/S and B/S drivers. If a DR.B driver taps you in the rear, you usually don't get a penalty, nor for bad track re-entries. As DR.A you are still prone to a penalty when they hit you at the apex from the side.
Also it seems that SR Down is not always displayed anymore, yet after the race your manner points can still be reduced to even a red rating.
I just got out of that race, my god was it a penalty fest! These cars are so... volatile? As in it's so difficult to choreograph your moves with another drive because for e.g. the guy in front will change gear (off throttle for a whole second) while you're putting down 1200bhp right behind him or whatever. Not that I'm saying penalties shouldn't be applied because of that, just saying why crashes are so much more common with these cars.
Shortly after the start, two guys in front rubbed slightly (no victim, racing incident) and got penalties. Of course one of them slows down for the penalty. Chaos then ensued as usual - the guy behind dodged him into my path, I then tried to dodge that guy and ended up going into the back of both of them, then someone hit me from behind twice. After all this I must have had about 15 seconds of penalties and was probably even further down the field than I qualified (9th).
From then on, I had nice gaps either side. Didn't see another car really. I ended up 3RD! I've never driven the car, best lap was 1s slower than the lobby best and I go from <9th + 15s penalties to 3rd! That I think shows how many penalties the other guys got. No idea if they were deserved as I didn't see any and can't save replays but it's just funny and I actually benefited for once. And while hard work and satisfying the race was pretty boring. Boring or frustrating is the choice these days...
My other race with the group 4 I won. I started 3rd, follow the leader for most of it. Guy in front made a mistake and me and the guy behind got past him. Shortly after the guy behind went off and I think got penalties for it. No idea what happened to the other guy, but he ended up 7s behind a lap later so probably penalties as well. After a good battle for first, the guy in front went off which allowed me to get up the inside. At this point the pressure is on to keep ahead, our battle would have been great for 3 more laps. But then he slows for a penalty and our battle was thus, over. What a crap way to finish yet again thanks to the penalties.
See how the first guy absolutely veers left in fear of a penalty
I was wondering the same thing, if maybe it's some sort of AI that is learning as time goes on. I think I've had a couple of taps over the last few days with no penalty. But it's too early to tell yet. At other times I've still got them and the overriding feeling is it's still a jobsworth.
Well I've noticed an improvement over last week, and this correlates with my SR getting back to the mode average again. It's mostly As who I'm coming into contact with and I haven't been receiving anywhere near as many 2-3 second penalties for being tapped as I was a week ago - still some, but it's around 50% now instead of 100%.
Give the video a quick once-over, you'll see what I mean
I’ll have to check but I’m pretty sure I’m C/A since I haven’t been racing much on the daily races. Looks like I’ll continue that trend lol
You should be pretty safe I think from the worst of the penalty system at C rank, in a way you might want to stay there, all you have to look forward to by ranking up is tip-toeing around the track all the time.
Well this is an example from yesterday
And this it today
I'm so scared of getting penalties now, I'm clinging to the inside slowing down in fear I might move away from my little piece of road :/
Both with lower ranked drivers that did not receive a penalty. And while I didn't get SR Down on screen or penalties from getting tapped from behind earlier, it still added to a red rating at the end. Or is that one tap worth -8 SR?
Another race in which I got bumped from behind off the track without any SR Down indication and no further incidents ended in a neutral rating at the end. So it clearly still deducts manner points for getting hit, it just doesn't show the SR Down arrow on screen.
Edit: I just did the FIA F1500 race, I see no difference. It was S/S A/S room, every little tap was a penalty.
- Tapped from behind, 2 sec
- Rubbed on the inside while slowing down for the car in front of me, 1 sec
- Evading car taking grass, 3.5 sec
- Getting knocked into wall by car bouncing of other wall, 4 sec
- Car on the outside cutting in too much, hitting my left rear at the apex, 2 sec
- Car trying to dive through my inside after he went wide, 4 sec
- I hit a car braking very early, 3 sec my fault.
- Hit on inside rear panel in corner, 1 sec
I came away with only 3 SR loss. Worst off was a player demoted to SR.D
So in my experience it was 100% of contacts resulted in a penalty.
Dear friend, unfortunately the penalty system created by Gt sport guys is totally wrong and ridicolous. I stopped playing online time ago, i get tired to see car accidents in front of me and get 3-4 seconds of penalty, or somebody behind hit my car and I get penalty, so after 4-5 races I said " Stop, that's enough". It is simply absurd that people makes accidents and I get penalty, I spoke with some friends and they have the same problem, they told me " we stopped playing online for wrong penalty system". I completed 100% career, at the end of november I will be playing Ride 3 and F1 2018.
Same thing for me. I got to A/S after a lot of hard work and didn't want to lose my rating because of some idiot. I switched to an alternate account and got real close to A/S and stopped again. I race weekly with the Car of the Week gang, and have been thinking of making a third profile should I have the urge to do online races more than once a week.
Actually I´ve "changed" to PC2 and AC for a while... Private Lobbies and Time Trials Challenges... (You may find several ones on the Online Racing Sub-Main Thread of PC2 and AC Course GTPlanet Sections!