who likes the MX-5 anyway???

[esoxhntr]

FIAT Barchetta (FF).

I won't argue with the other cars you mentioned but being FWD automatically excludes anything from being placed in the sports car category field. Sporty? maybe. I'm sure I don't have to tell you, having the driving wheels steer is far from optimal for racing.

FWD is for groceries and picking up the kids at school. Sports cars are light, RWD and predominately front engined -- though you do make a case in your post above for some MR layouts.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

I really dont get it. Most of you are a bunch of spoiled kids. Complaining that you got too much things is just crazy for me.
I can understand that you want that or that car in the game, however I fail to see why having many model of the same car is a problem. It's not like it have take another car place anyway. They just modeled one then changed a bit the power/ratio or w/e.

 

[Famine]

I won't argue with the other cars you mentioned but being FWD automatically excludes anything from being placed in the sports car category field. Sporty? maybe. I'm sure I don't have to tell you, having the driving wheels steer is far from optimal for racing.

Racing != Sports

Many people make the erroneous connection between sportscars and motorsports. There isn't one. Even then, FWD cars are often used for racing - from grassroots right up to top national tier racing like the BTCC. But then the BTCC uses, typically, hopped-up family sedans. They're probably the fastest FWD cars on the planet and actually used in motorsports, but they sure as eggs ain't sportscars.

A sportscar is primarily a lightweight coupe (FHC/DHC) with space only for two adults - maybe two kids too if you're lucky - with the focus on quick road driving without, necessarily, a focus on actual speed, just the preservation of it through low weight, good road holding and good driver feedback. The Lotus Elan S2 fits this description and is FWD. The Mazda MX-3 does too (and adds a sweet little V6). The Saab Sonett, the FIAT Barchetta, the Ford Puma, Toyota Paseo, Mitsubishi FTO and Alfa GTV/Spider are all FWD "sportscars" too.

All that FWD does is make the cabin space bigger.

 

[esoxhntr]

Racing != Sports

Many people make the erroneous connection between sportscars and motorsports. There isn't one. Even then, FWD cars are often used for racing - from grassroots right up to top national tier racing like the BTCC. But then the BTCC uses, typically, hopped-up family sedans. They're probably the fastest FWD cars on the planet and actually used in motorsports, but they sure as eggs ain't sportscars.

A sportscar is primarily a lightweight coupe (FHC/DHC) with space only for two adults - maybe two kids too if you're lucky - with the focus on quick road driving without, necessarily, a focus on actual speed, just the preservation of it through low weight, good road holding and good driver feedback. The Lotus Elan S2 fits this description and is FWD. The Mazda MX-3 does too (and adds a sweet little V6). The Saab Sonett, the FIAT Barchetta, the Ford Puma, Toyota Paseo, Mitsubishi FTO and Alfa GTV/Spider are all FWD "sportscars" too.

All that FWD does is make the cabin space bigger.

Completely disagree with the cars you listed, completely agree with the definition you gave -- save for one omission - RWD.

Elan s2 was an abomination, everything else you listed -- no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig or try to polish a turd..... they are not sports cars. MX-3/Paseo? C'mon. Like I said, sporty... not sports cars.

It's simple physics, when you have the drive wheels doing the turning you are sacrificing grip -- whether it's accelerating/braking or turning -- having a different set of wheels do their own job is much more efficient and a key part of the definition of a sports car.

 

[BMWM52012]

Just out of interest, what do people think of the comments I've heard before that the MX5 isn't a true 'sports' car because it's FR, and true 'sports' cars should be MR or RR?

It makes no odds to me, but I'm curious to see what others think.

Yeah that doesn't make any sense. By saying that, these people have ruled out the better part of American muscle cars from being able to say that they are sports cars, as well as the MX-5 variants.

 

[Famine]

Completely disagree with the cars you listed, completely agree with the definition you gave -- save for one omission - RWD.

What, no Audi TT?

Elan s2 was an abomination, everything else you listed -- no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig or try to polish a turd..... they are not sports cars. MX-3/Paseo? C'mon. Like I said, sporty... not sports cars.

It's simple physics, when you have the drive wheels doing the turning you are sacrificing grip -- whether it's accelerating/braking or turning -- having a different set of wheels do their own job is much more efficient and a key part of the definition of a sports car.

The Elan S2 is one of the best handling cars ever sold of any kind - and if it's outright grip you're looking for you're looking in the wrong place if you're looking a sportscar. How a sportscar manages beyond the limit of grip is possibly more important than how it manages right up to the limit - the MX-5 is practically the modern definition of the sportscar and, really, they don't offer much by way of outright grip (and the MX-3 actually beats it on that score - I know, I've lived with both for a very long time).

Find someone with an MX-3 V6 and get them to let you drive it hard. There is no closer car to the MX-5 that also has rear seats - that's not an accident either, it was in the design remit... It just happens to be front-wheel drive...

 

[esoxhntr]

What, no Audi TT?



The Elan S2 is one of the best handling cars ever sold of any kind - and if it's outright grip you're looking for you're looking in the wrong place if you're looking a sportscar. How a sportscar manages beyond the limit of grip is possibly more important than how it manages right up to the limit - the MX-5 is practically the modern definition of the sportscar and, really, they don't offer much by way of outright grip (and the MX-3 actually beats it on that score - I know, I've lived with both for a very long time).

Find someone with an MX-3 V6 and get them to let you drive it hard. There is no closer car to the MX-5 that also has rear seats... It just happens to be front-wheel drive...

Nope, no audi tt. Is it quick? sure. But it's not a 'sports car'.

My mistake on the Elan S2. You are correct. I got it confused with the FWD lotus put out in the past.

MX-5 is a pure sports car, no doubt about it. As is the s2000, caterham, triumphs, mgs of old, RX7s, etc.

THe MX-3 was a turd, the DC2 Integra Type R would out grip/handle it and that's not a sports car either. Just a pig with lipstick.

 

[Famine]

Nope, no audi tt. Is it quick? sure. But it's not a 'sports car'.

"Quick" is nothing to do with being a sportscar. The 90hp NA MX-5 can barely break 10s to 60mph and not much more than 110mph. It's not a quick car - but it sure is a sportscar.

My mistake on the Elan S2. You are correct. I got it confused with the FWD lotus put out in the past.

It is the FWD Lotus (M100), from 1990.

MX-5 is a pure sports car, no doubt about it. As is the s2000, caterham, triumphs, mgs of old.

THe MX-3 was a turd, the DC2 Integra Type R would out grip/handle it and that's not a sports car either. Just a pig with lipstick.

And yet grip is still irrelevant to the designation. A DC2 will outgrip an MX-5 too since I just told you an MX-3 will... The DC2 wasn't a sportscar because it had a B-pillar, thus not a coupe - it was a hatchback - not because it was FWD.

Avoid whatever prejudices you may have about FWD and avoid whatever notions you have of any aspect of performance needed to be a "sportscar". The NA MX-5 is the definition of a "sportscar" and it will not meet any performance qualities you decide to apply - indicating that those qualities are irrelevant.

Whether you like it or not, there have been FWD sportscars. The MX-3 is one, the Elan another, the Saab Sonett another, the FIAT Barchetta another, the Alfa Spider another...

 

[esoxhntr]

We are going to have to agree to disagree Famine. You'll not let go of your precious FWD econoboxes and I wont of my precious RWD layout.

the FWD Elan I know is called the M100 from the 90s, while the S2 is the old model.

 

[Famine]

We are going to have to agree to disagree Famine. You'll not let go of your precious FWD econoboxes

An econobox isn't a coupe, thus not a sportscar.

and I wont of my precious RWD layout.

Lest you forget, I've had two MX-5s and currently drive an E39 BMW which, curiously, matches my last MX-5 for acceleration, speed, pace, drivetrain and hilarity, and hammers it by FAR for raw grip - but it's no sportscar. Why? Because none of these things matter for whether a car is a sportscar or not.

Personally, I'll drive anything and, if it's fun, I'll buy anything. The day I start being prejudiced against a drivetrain is the day I stop calling myself a car enthusiast.

the FWD Elan I know is called the M100 from the 90s, while the S2 is the old model.

The earlier car is the S2 Elan. The later car is the Elan Series 2 (or Elan S2) - with the internal production code of M100. Since I was talking about the FWD Elan S2, it'd make a great deal more sense to assume I was talking about the FWD Elan S2:

The Lotus Elan S2 fits this description and is FWD.

and it is still one of the finest handling cars of any kind ever made.

 

[daan]

Now, where did I put that popcorn?


Puts 3D glasses on and settles down...

 

[esoxhntr]

I have no prejudice against drive train, FWDs are great -- cheap to build, light, economical -- perfect for daily commuting & picking up the groceries. They are just not as fun to drive as a RWD sports car.

I've owned a few 'performance' vehicles myself - Integras, AWD Eclipses, FC & FD RX7s, and an old Camaro. The RX7s were the only ones of the bunch I'd call sports cars.

 

[300SRT8Fan]

What has this turned into??

 

[TokoTurismo]

Am I allow to post pictures?

At least it's in front of the others to prove it's THE best.

 

[Famine]

I have no prejudice against drive train, FWDs are great -- cheap to build, light, economical -- perfect for daily commuting & picking up the groceries.

Now have a look at the "M100" Elan S2. See anywhere to put the groceries?

FWD also offers packaging benefits along with braking, traction and ease of control. Lotus themselves justified the FWD Elan by saying - quite boldly - that for a given power, weight and tyre size, a FWD car was always faster on any given piece of road than a RWD one. I don't pretend to be able to attack or defend that argument, but Lotus are world renowned for their abilities in road-holding... However, I can give you this article about a pair of identical Dodge Daytona IMSAs from 1988 - one which ran RWD and one which ran (transversely-mounted) FWD...

They are just not as fun to drive as a RWD sports car.

Fun is where you find it - take the 1.9 BMW Z3 which is, for reference, a RWD sportscar and utterly appalling in every respect. It's still a sportscar - not because it's RWD, but because it is a small, lightweight, DHC designed to have very little by way of additional, unnecessary comfort (though we forgive it the aircon and leather - it's a BMW). The bigger-engined variants go a bit better, but "go" isn't in the requirements.

So "fun" isn't really a part of the "sportscar" brief either - the Z3's not alone in being a dismal sportscar.

I've owned a few 'performance' vehicles myself - Integras, AWD Eclipses, FC & FD RX7s, plus two SUVs and a truck. The RX7s were the only ones of the bunch I'd call sports cars.

I'd be tempted to put the RX-7s (both generations) into the Touring category, myself - it's almost too big, too powerful and too heavy - but I wouldn't object to the point of an internet argument to it being classed as a sportscar. It certainly fits the brief enough.

 

[esoxhntr]

Famine, the article you linked to seems to suggest FWD is easier to drive at the limit - no news there and, that it perhaps, *may* be quicker on "fast" tracks with high-speed turns where cornering forces were not so extreme either forwards/backwards or side to side (ie. tires did not exceed their grip). Where it suffered was under braking and corner exit, particularly on tighter sections of a track - again, no surprises.

Easier <> Faster (i know we're not really debating speed) OR more 'sports car' like
Braking and cornering behaviour/feel, especially in tight quarters, are, in my mind, a key part of what makes a sports car a sports car.

As for the Sports Car vs Touring Car debate.. that's indeed another can o worms that I'd likely agree with you and lean towards RX7s = Touring but, barely.

 

[Finduszip]

But I absolutely love the MX-5!

 

[Famine]

Famine, the article you linked to seems to suggest FWD is easier to drive at the limit - no news there and, that it perhaps, *may* be quicker on "fast" tracks with high-speed turns where cornering forces were not so extreme either forwards/backwards or side to side (ie. tires did not exceed their grip). Where it suffered was under braking and corner exit, particularly on tighter sections of a track - again, no surprises.

Easier <> Faster (i know we're not really debating speed) OR more 'sports car' like
Braking and cornering behaviour/feel, especially in tight quarters, are, in my mind, a key part of what makes a sports car a sports car.

I'll agree on just about every point except... to note that the reviewers and drivers made specific reference in the last two paragraphs to there being absolutely no difference in "feel" between the cars, despite expecting poorer feedback and poorer feel in the FWD car.

If it's built as a sportscar, there is no reason it can't be one and FWD. The M100 Elan S2 is a supreme pointer for this and, however turdy you think it is, the MX-3 is an MX-5 with a fixed roof, rear seats and a V6 - they benchmarked the MX-5's handling, steering feel and feedback when they made it. Not even the PAS gets in the way - trust me on this

 

[NikoBellic]

I like it, hears why.

A brief look at the Mazda MX-5

The revolutionary Mazda MX-5 was introduced onto the commercial market at the end of the 80s and was meet with widespread critical acclaim. Since then the Mazda roadster has become a favorite choice for sports car fanatics. The MX-5 has been through some design and technical tweaks over the years but each variation of the Mazda MX-5 has managed to maintain the vehicle's unique level of style and performance on the road. Recently Mazda released an updated MX-5 20th Anniversary edition which featured a unique bodykit, chrome grille, new doorhandles and 17-inch wheels. This version was only available on the market for a limited amount of time and was a homage to the fist ever MX-5 that was released in 1990.

Specifications of the Mazda MX-5

The first Mazda MX-5 model featured either a 1.6L or 1.8L engine and a quality 5-speed manual gearbox. The unique design including the aluminum bonnet and famous shape has stayed a staple of the vehicle during each generation. The newest generation features the option of a 5 or 6 speed transmission or an automatic 6-speed set up. The standard engine is a 16-valve, 2.0L MZR which produces 170bph or 130 kW. The Mazda MX-5 is also on the market with the add-on steering wheel mounted paddle shifters. New features such as traction and stability control were also implemented in order to improve the drive-ability of the car. A more recent version, the MX-5 Super-light features a quality Mazda 1.8 liter engine.

Variants of the Mazda MX-5

The Mazda MX-5 has gone through a series of revolutionary changes since its inception and production in 1989. With each new edition of the car bringing something new and exciting to the market. There have been several quality special editions of the vehicle including the M2 or Mazda Too editions that were released in 1992. These were intended to be niche editions that featured more of the 'soft' aspects of the MX-5. The second phase models featured a 1.6L engine and some notable changes to the exterior design including updated headlights a wider body. A special 10th anniversary version of the car was released in 1999 and a 20th anniversary edition followed in 2010. At the turn of the millennium Mazda released an MX-5 with new exterior design. A third generation of MX-5 vehicles have a sleek 16-valve 2.0 litre engine and a stylish MX-5 design.

What kind of customer buys an Mazda MX-5?

The Mazda MX-5 is extremely popular with a great deal of motorists including businessmen, young drivers and even experienced automobile fanatics. The 16-valve 2.0L MZR engine means that the vehicle always performs perfectly on the road whilst being able to provide higher levels of speed and performance for more experienced drivers. The Mazda MX-5 is perfect for those looking for a unique vehicle that will let them really stand out from the crowd. The cheapest version of the Mazda MX-5 starts at £17,990 which features 8i SE. This version is also available with a diverse range of add-ons like air conditioning and Mazda's power-shift transmission.

...Miata's magic lies in its eager responses and the unfiltered connection between car and driver."

—Car and Driver | January 2011

"Arguably the world's best sports car for under $25k."

—Motor Trend | May 2010

 

[MSTER232]

Now, where did I put that popcorn?


Puts 3D glasses on and settles down...

 

[Morgoth_666]

I'd be tempted to put the RX-7s (both generations) into the Touring category, myself - it's almost too big, too powerful and too heavy - but I wouldn't object to the point of an internet argument to it being classed as a sportscar. It certainly fits the brief enough.

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, and not that I disagree that RX-7s do sort of sit on the border, but dare I ask why you refer to "both" generations of RX-7s?

Unless one of them is somehow phony(kind of why I ask), there have been three generations. A friend of mine looked into buying a first-gen used when he was getting his first car. Ultimately he didn't, but that thing at least seemed a lot smaller than the second and third versions - I don't know the numbers so I could be mistaken about that of course. GT5 I think mentions the second-gen being wider but sIightly shorter. I always wished there was one of those in GT too, but not really a priority I suppose.

A tangent, I know.

 

[Famine]

Simply because esoxhntr referred to his ownership of an FC and an FD and then the classification of them as "the RX-7s". Since we were talking about his cars, the FB wasn't included in the conversation.

There was an FB in GT2, for reference.


Incidentally, this thread is much more fun than it started out being and way more than the usual GT5 forum thread.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Simply because esoxhntr referred to his ownership of an FC and an FD and then the classification of them as "the RX-7s". Since we were talking about his cars, the FB wasn't included in the conversation.

There was an FB in GT2, for reference.


Incidentally, this thread is much more fun than it started out being and way more than the usual GT5 forum thread.

Ok, thanks, I must have missed that bit of his post. And apparently forgotten too much of GT2.

 

[esoxhntr]

The lack of the FB is a gaping hole in GT5 in my opinion. You have the R30 Skyline, early 80s 300ZX, but not the coolest one of them all they were extremely popular track cars.

as is the 1g Eclipse AWD and ...... <insert your favourite make here>.

[/wishlist]

 

[RockRoadKid]

The lack of the FB is a gaping hole in GT5 in my opinion. You have the R30 Skyline, early 80s 300ZX, but not the coolest one of them all they were extremely popular track cars.

I couldn't agree more. 👍

 

[peter_vod69]

Speaking as someone who regularly (too regularly since a recent arrival) drives an original MX5, I can honestly say that I'm in two minds about it. Everything you've read about their feel and feedback is true, they do involve the driver exceptionally well. Most of the rest of the stuff you've read about them might be emotive bull, in my opinion. I just think they aren't fast enough, aren't genuinely exciting enough to really light my fire. I honestly believe that the original brief was too narrow for real enthusiast drivers, that being the whole "Jinba Ittai", thing. The overwhelming focus on control and involvement, while admirable, meant that the rest of the package was a little underdone.

Every time I jump back in my Evo (when it isn't on infant-logistics missions) I remember what a pleasure it is to have a properly good engine and set of brakes at your command, and forgive me for saying this, but when a three-box saloon can do the Jinba Ittai as well, and move about with far more vigour, I have to say the attraction of the MX5 is diminished.

 

[CodeRedR51]

You're talking about a early 90's 120hp Convertible vs. a Turbocharged, AWD sedan there.

Apples and Oranges, sir.

 

[peter_vod69]

You're talking about a early 90's 120hp Convertible vs. a Turbocharged, AWD sedan there.

Apples and Oranges, sir.

True - but maybe I'm trying to say that I just don't find the Apple all that tasty.

 

[ryanerb]

Racing != Sports

Many people make the erroneous connection between sportscars and motorsports. There isn't one. Even then, FWD cars are often used for racing - from grassroots right up to top national tier racing like the BTCC. But then the BTCC uses, typically, hopped-up family sedans. They're probably the fastest FWD cars on the planet and actually used in motorsports, but they sure as eggs ain't sportscars.

A sportscar is primarily a lightweight coupe (FHC/DHC) with space only for two adults - maybe two kids too if you're lucky - with the focus on quick road driving without, necessarily, a focus on actual speed, just the preservation of it through low weight, good road holding and good driver feedback. The Lotus Elan S2 fits this description and is FWD. The Mazda MX-3 does too (and adds a sweet little V6). The Saab Sonett, the FIAT Barchetta, the Ford Puma, Toyota Paseo, Mitsubishi FTO and Alfa GTV/Spider are all FWD "sportscars" too.

All that FWD does is make the cabin space bigger.

I agree with all of this. And the FF drivetrain this stands true. The RX7 I wouldnt call it a "Touring Car" as tuned its not really "that" stable. It is a borderline but I see it as more sports car but on a larger size.

Now, with the logic you posted there (not arguing it at all just curious of your viewpoint) a Mustang, Camaro and Challenger are NOT sports cars because they are HEAVY. Really they are not when you get down to it, they are "Pony Cars" but they do fall into the "Sports Car" category at least here in the US. At least as a different class of Sports Car. Whats your view on those even though they are FR cars?

Also, a Corvette IS hands down one of the greatest American made "Sports Cars" and it too is really big and heavy. (BTW I am not a Chevy fanatic at all just pointing out the truths in US autos). I see the Corvette as a Sports Car and NOT a Supercar (at least most editions of it)... Supercars are high dollar, low production cars (this is where the standard Corvette fails) that put out dream numbers in tests on the track. Where would this car get dispositioned in your categorization?

Again, I am NOT being argumentative at all, just curious of your views on these questions. I see "Sports Car" as a coupe that handles well, has at least some get-up-and-go (relative to its class as there are MANY classes of sports cars to me), and fun to drive.... Yes they are usually 2 seaters or 2 seats with a TINY back seat (like my Mustang)

Using the logic you have a Mitsu Eclipse is a sports car (it is) but a Corvette is not.

Here is a "rough view" of how I see the market (again here in the US). This is the "selection" of cars in the dealerships.

Disposable Car (cheap hold no value - Drive it til they die)
Sedans/SUVs/Trucks/Sport Coupes (Average useable car)
Sports Cars (Pony Cars, Lightweights etc... the less practical car but fun and turns heads)
Super Cars (these USUALLY are not on the dealership lots and if they are they are showroom cars)

On topic, I think an MX5/Miata IS indeed a sports car... It is just a different class sports car than say an RX7 or a Corvette. That is one reason why they are such a hit with Autocross members. Its an inexpensive sports car that drives solid and consistent with most drivers. Its not fast really but those things hold the road for what they are and their price!

 

[MoLiEG]

Cool car that turned "uncool" thanks to PD and the insane amount of "renamed" copies of it in the game... 👎