Why So Many Vettel Haters?

[Imari]

2010 RBR in it´s own league.
2011 RBR still in it´s own league.

I seem to recall the 2010 drivers championship going down to the wire, with a relatively large number of drivers still in with a chance at Abu Dhabi. The RB6 was the best car of the season, but it wasn't crushingly dominant.

In 2011, it's hard to separate the RB7 from Vettel. Mark Webber isn't a bad driver, but he hasn't done any better than Alonso, Button, or Hamilton. If the machinery was that dominant, it seems like he'd do better. See Korea, where Webber was totally unable to pass Hamilton, despite Hamilton having a chunk of rubber disrupting his front aero. Not very indicative of a car that is leaps and bounds ahead of it's rivals.

The telling question is, if you put Vettel in the McLaren do you think he'd still be winning races? I happen to think he would. But that's very strongly in the realms of opinion. I do however think that there's strong evidence that the in the F1 field as it stands today, the RB7 is the best car but not by a wide margin.

 

[hampus_dh]

I seem to recall the 2010 drivers championship going down to the wire, with a relatively large number of drivers still in with a chance at Abu Dhabi. The RB6 was the best car of the season, but it wasn't crushingly dominant.

In 2011, it's hard to separate the RB7 from Vettel. Mark Webber isn't a bad driver, but he hasn't done any better than Alonso, Button, or Hamilton. If the machinery was that dominant, it seems like he'd do better. See Korea, where Webber was totally unable to pass Hamilton, despite Hamilton having a chunk of rubber disrupting his front aero. Not very indicative of a car that is leaps and bounds ahead of it's rivals.

The telling question is, if you put Vettel in the McLaren do you think he'd still be winning races? I happen to think he would. But that's very strongly in the realms of opinion. I do however think that there's strong evidence that the in the F1 field as it stands today, the RB7 is the best car but not by a wide margin.

That was mainly because of RBR themselves. Car failures and Vettel did a few facepalms himself.

Webber is not a bad driver but he is not a fast driver like Vettel Alonso Hamilton etc.
He´s just not.

He has the best car on the grid but only manages to be fourth. He should be 2nd.

"If the machinery was that dominant, it seems like he'd do better."

The car is the best on the grid hands down. It´s him that needs to do a better job.

"See Korea, where Webber was totally unable to pass Hamilton, despite Hamilton having a chunk of rubber disrupting his front aero."

Again, the aero of the car is designed for leading the race, no dirty air at all.
When they get behind a car it´s extremely hard for them to pass.

"The telling question is, if you put Vettel in the McLaren do you think he'd still be winning races?"

And Hamilton and Button in the RBR? LOL Hell no. Seriously do you even follow the sport? Have you studied the cars?

 

[Seismica]

It doesn't matter if the car is the best, you sitll have to perform as a driver. Last season Vettel made some mistakes and the car had a few mechanical failures but they still won, which says something about the underlying pace of the car (It was pretty damn fast).

This season they have sorted out reliability problems but it is no faster in relation to the others than it was last year. Vettel has been immense this season. I didn't rate him last year (Probably a grudge after effectively taking Button out of the WDC fight in Spa) but he's showing as one of the all time greats right now.

I do not believe all this nonsense about proving himself, he's already a double world champion. In 2008 he did extremely well in a midfield car (Monza was a lucky win in my opinion as the main runners were at the back of the grid, and the car was good because the circuit characteristics differed from the norm - kind of like Force India at Spa 2009). In 2009 he battled against the superior cars of Brawn and Toyota for the first few races and despite some bad luck still managed to get podiums and wins. Towards the end of that season the RBR dominance had begun because Ferrari and Mclaren were always one step behind, and Brawn didn't develop the car at all.

Yes, he has the best car, but to deliver such performances at every race shows how good a driver he is.

 

[Imari]

Again, the aero of the car is designed for leading the race, no dirty air at all.
When they get behind a car it´s extremely hard for them to pass.

Doesn't seem particularly dominant if it needs to be in front to be fast.

And Hamilton and Button in the RBR? LOL Hell no. Seriously do you even follow the sport? Have you studied the cars?

How does insulting me add to the discussion? Obviously I follow the sport, and I'd like to think that I have more than a passing interest in the cars or I wouldn't be bothering to discuss it.

 

[Seismica]

Again, the aero of the car is designed for leading the race, no dirty air at all.
When they get behind a car it´s extremely hard for them to pass.

Every single car on the grid, even the HRT and the Marussia/Virgin is designed to run in clean air because it's so difficult to accurately replicate the wake left by another car, and even if you were to do that and design your car around it, you would severely hamper your pace in qualifying.

Besides, I would contest that fact because of some of the moves both Webber and Vettel have made this season, it's not that hard and certainly no harder than in any other car to overtake (Infact it's easier, because of the underlying pace of the car).

 

[hampus_dh]

Every single car on the grid, even the HRT and the Marussia/Virgin is designed to run in clean air because it's so difficult to accurately replicate the wake left by another car, and even if you were to do that and design your car around it, you would severely hamper your pace in qualifying.

Besides, I would contest that fact because of some of the moves both Webber and Vettel have made this season, it's not that hard and certainly no harder than in any other car to overtake (Infact it's easier, because of the underlying pace of the car).

Nope, most teams take into account that they will infact stay behind another car.

The RBR was designed to make pole and always be first. Race pace was something they worked on during the season but the main goal was to be absolute fastest on Saturdays.

Doesn't seem particularly dominant if it needs to be in front to be fast.

I don´t even know how to answer that one.

How does insulting me add to the discussion? Obviously I follow the sport, and I'd like to think that I have more than a passing interest in the cars or I wouldn't be bothering to discuss it.

It wasn´t my intention to insult you. I´m baffled slightly and asked a question, hence the "Seriously?,

It doesn't matter if the car is the best, you sitll have to perform as a driver. Last season Vettel made some mistakes and the car had a few mechanical failures but they still won, which says something about the underlying pace of the car (It was pretty damn fast).

This season they have sorted out reliability problems but it is no faster in relation to the others than it was last year. Vettel has been immense this season. I didn't rate him last year (Probably a grudge after effectively taking Button out of the WDC fight in Spa) but he's showing as one of the all time greats right now.

I do not believe all this nonsense about proving himself, he's already a double world champion. In 2008 he did extremely well in a midfield car (Monza was a lucky win in my opinion as the main runners were at the back of the grid, and the car was good because the circuit characteristics differed from the norm - kind of like Force India at Spa 2009). In 2009 he battled against the superior cars of Brawn and Toyota for the first few races and despite some bad luck still managed to get podiums and wins. Towards the end of that season the RBR dominance had begun because Ferrari and Mclaren were always one step behind, and Brawn didn't develop the car at all.

Yes, he has the best car, but to deliver such performances at every race shows how good a driver he is.

I agree, and Vettel is doing exactly what he is supposed to do. And he´s doing a fine job, nobody has said otherwise.

He is without a doubt one of the truly fast drivers. BUT, i hate it when people say Vettel is the best driver on the grid when he has a car that´s in another dimension compared to the rest.

We will truly see what he has to offer when the car isn´t so dominant. About the same as in 07-08 all teams were extremely even and it got down to the last race and the last corner basically.

2nd bolded part: Well the car was quick back then aswell. The quickest out of the cars with no DD if i recall correctly.

Oops sorry.

 

[Seismica]

Nope, most teams take into account that they will infact stay behind another car.

The RBR was designed to make pole and always be first. Race pace was something they worked on during the season but the main goal was to be absolute fastest on Saturdays.

Wind Tunnel testing can not realistically take into account the wake of the other cars without skewing the data results so much that they don't tell you anything.

The wake is just turbulent air and is by definition unpredictable.

I agree, and Vettel is doing exactly what he is supposed to do. And he´s doing a fine job, nobody has said otherwise.

Nobody said otherwise, but there is a debate as to whether it is the car or the driver. The short answer is it's both. A driver like Alonso could do the same job in the same car, but someone like Maldonado probably couldn't.

2nd bolded part: Well the car was quick back then aswell. The quickest out of the cars with no DD if i recall correctly.

The car at the start of 2009 was probably similar to what the Ferrari has been this year. Close, but not quite there. Quite remarkable considering the advantage the Double Diffuser gave over them. Once they got it, they turned the tables on Brawn, but it was already too late.

 

[PeterJB]

Doesn't seem particularly dominant if it needs to be in front to be fast.

Usually you fit the definition of 'fast' in your are in front of your respective competitors.

 

[hampus_dh]

Nobody said otherwise, but there is a debate as to whether it is the car or the driver. The short answer is it's both. A driver like Alonso could do the same job in the same car, but someone like Maldonado probably couldn't.

80/20 is the number i´ve heard for todays cars.

The car at the start of 2009 was probably similar to what the Ferrari has been this year. Close, but not quite there. Quite remarkable considering the advantage the Double Diffuser gave over them. Once they got it, they turned the tables on Brawn, but it was already too late.

I agree.

 

[Blaze_409]

This tread has turned into a Joke. I think the OP attracted the vettel and general F1 driver haters.......so far from all I have heard there are no good F1 drivers.......That is a foolish statement.......

Let me know the day that i get in an RB7 or a MP4-26 and go 1/3 as fast as Vettel or Webber or GHamilton or Chankdok! for that matter.....You have to drive the car! And like i said before Sebastien Vettel does not give a Hoot what alot of people think.

 

[Imari]

Doesn't seem particularly dominant if it needs to be in front to be fast.

Usually you fit the definition of 'fast' in your are in front of your respective competitors.

Correct. But that comment was in response to one claiming that the car was particularly quick in clean air, and abnormally slow in dirty air.

I disagree completely with that assessment of the RB7. But if it were true it's hardly a mark of a dominant car that it's balance is so messed up by a condition that a least one of the team's two cars can expect to spend a large majority of the race in.

I was pointing it out more as a logical fallacy than anything else. Either the statement is false, or the statement proves the opposite of what it's presented as.

 

[hampus_dh]

This tread has turned into a Joke. I think the OP attracted the vettel and general F1 driver haters.......so far from all I have heard there are no good F1 drivers.......That is a foolish statement.......

Let me know the day that i get in an RB7 or a MP4-26 and go 1/3 as fast as Vettel or Webber or GHamilton or Chankdok! for that matter.....You have to drive the car! And like i said before Sebastien Vettel does not give a Hoot what alot of people think.

F1 contains the absolute best open wheeler drivers on this planet.
You and me isn´t that quick.

Correct. But that comment was in response to one claiming that the car was particularly quick in clean air, and abnormally slow in dirty air.

Don´t make things up.

 

[Imari]

Don´t make things up.

Ahem. You may remember saying this.

Again, the aero of the car is designed for leading the race, no dirty air at all.
When they get behind a car it´s extremely hard for them to pass.

Now, that would seem to indicate to me that the car performs above average when in clean air, and below average in dirty air.

No?

Abnormally slow is not incorrect. It's another way of saying below average. Unless you're claiming that all cars find it extremely hard to pass. Which in one sense is correct I suppose, in that F1 by nature makes it difficult to pass compared to say, NASCAR. But we're all familiar with the sport and are presumably taking that into account, and the reasonable assumption therefore is that it's extremely hard for them to pass even by F1 standards.

Let's get this straight. The RB7 is a great car. It is not head and shoulders above every other car on the grid at this point in the season, nor is it the automatic win that you seem to be touting it to be. It's just not. To claim that it is diminishes Vettel's continuing achievements.

 

[hampus_dh]

Ahem. You may remember saying this.



Now, that would seem to indicate to me that the car performs above average when in clean air, and below average in dirty air.

No?

Abnormally slow is not incorrect. It's another way of saying below average. Unless you're claiming that all cars find it extremely hard to pass. Which in one sense is correct I suppose, in that F1 by nature makes it difficult to pass compared to say, NASCAR. But we're all familiar with the sport and are presumably taking that into account, and the reasonable assumption therefore is that it's extremely hard for them to pass even by F1 standards.

Let's get this straight. The RB7 is a great car. It is not head and shoulders above every other car on the grid at this point in the season, nor is it the automatic win that you seem to be touting it to be. It's just not. To claim that it is diminishes Vettel's continuing achievements.

It is.

"When they get behind a car it´s extremely hard for them to pass."

This goes for all cars. That´s why we have DRS and KERS systems.
It is the biggest problem for F1 today.

But, the RBR suffers from it the most. Out of the top-teams,

 

[Imari]

It is.

"When they get behind a car it´s extremely hard for them to pass."

This goes for all cars. That´s why we have DRS and KERS systems.
It is the biggest problem for F1 today.

But, the RBR suffers from it the most. Out of the top-teams,

Shall I amend it to abnormally slow for a top team then?

 

[hampus_dh]

Shall I amend it to abnormally slow for a top team then?

It´s better for sure.

 

[Seismica]

It is.

"When they get behind a car it´s extremely hard for them to pass."

This goes for all cars. That´s why we have DRS and KERS systems.
It is the biggest problem for F1 today.

But, the RBR suffers from it the most. Out of the top-teams,

That indicates to me a lack of Mechanical grip rather than a consequence of deliberate car design. Mclaren/Ferrari didn't design their cars to run in dirty air, they designed them the same way as Red Bull designed theirs, maximum downforce, minimum drag, in clean air. I may have misunderstood your point earlier when I mentioned wind tunnels - but it sounded like you implied other teams designed their cars to deal with turbulent air whereas Red Bull didn't. I don't know what to think now

 

[Blaze_409]

That indicates to me a lack of Mechanical grip rather than a consequence of deliberate car design.

So i guess this is why they dominated Monaco

They dominated Monaco last year because of a combination of mechanical grip and Engine driveability.


This is getting old. Vettel,Hamilton,Button,Alonso are some of the greatest drivers ever. there is no counter.

 

[hampus_dh]

So i guess this is why they dominated Monaco

That must have been in another dimension because in this dimension RBR did not dominate anything in Monaco.

It was a healthy dose of luck that kept Vettel in the lead.
Hamilton was the fastest guy on track but the team obviously burned that one.

Q1

H - 1:15.207
V - 1:15.606

Q2

H - 1:14.275
V - 1:14.277

H - No time
V - 1:13.556

Race

1. Vettel
2. Alonso +1.1 secs
3. Button +2.3 secs

Red flag came just in the right time and obviously new tires is ok to put on..
Webber came fourth btw,

 

[Seismica]

So i guess this is why they dominated Monaco

They dominated Monaco last year because of a combination of mechanical grip and Engine driveability.

I don't believe that Red Bull have a lack of mechanical grip, as I do not believe that Red Bull have any more trouble than the other teams when in dirty air.

That must have been in another dimension because in this dimension RBR did not dominate anything in Monaco.

It was a healthy dose of luck that kept Vettel in the lead.
Hamilton was the fastest guy on track but the team obviously burned that one.

Q1

H - 1:15.207
V - 1:15.606

Q2

H - 1:14.275
V - 1:14.277

H - No time
V - 1:13.556

Race

1. Vettel
2. Alonso +1.1 secs
3. Button +2.3 secs

Red flag came just in the right time and obviously new tires is ok to put on..
Webber came fourth btw,

This happens all the time, Q1 and Q2 times mean nothing as the teams can change engine modes/fuel mixes in between sessions and they can change tyres. Fuel amounts can differ, they often only run on the bare minimum in Q3. Knowing Red Bull, they probably put their Q3 load in before Q2, so they're running heavy in Q2. Also, the drivers are often instructed to take it easy in the earlier part of qualifying.

Besides, Hamilton's times were only 2/3 tenths faster than Buttons. Even if he had matched that in Q3 he would have been 1-2 tenths shy of Vettel's time.

In the race Red Bull only won because a) Button pitted once more than he had to, a failed tyre strategy that surrendered his track position and b) They were allowed to change tyres at the Red Flag.

 

[PeterJB]

In the race Red Bull only won because a) Button pitted once more than he had to, a failed tyre strategy that surrendered his track position and b) They were allowed to change tyres at the Red Flag.

a) This is where Red Bull have the real advantage, it's a fantastic team effort, and that is what wins you Championships. Their strategies almost always work out perfectly, plus, Vettel and the pit crew make very few mistakes. How many times have we seen foiled pit stops and strategies that went down the toilet from the other teams this year?

b) Yeah, so Button and Alonso were on new tyres as well, and still didn't catch him. People talk is if Button would have without a doubt won had their been no red flag. Vettel is known for being a good defender rather than overtaking, and has shown (at Spain most notably) that he can keep calm under pressure. Plus, we all know how hard it is to overtake at Monaco.

Truth is, there was a red flag, so we'll never know what would have happened had their not been one.

 

[Seismica]

a) This is where Red Bull have the real advantage, it's a fantastic team effort, and that is what wins you Championships. Their strategies almost always work out perfectly, plus, Vettel and the pit crew make very few mistakes. How many times have we seen foiled pit stops and strategies that went down the toilet from the other teams this year?

b) Yeah, so Button and Alonso were on new tyres as well, and still didn't catch him. People talk is if Button would have without a doubt won had their been no red flag. Vettel is known for being a good defender rather than overtaking, and has shown (at Spain most notably) that he can keep calm under pressure. Plus, we all know how hard it is to overtake at Monaco.

Truth is, there was a red flag, so we'll never know what would have happened had their not been one.

Well, Monaco is an odd one. I think if it hadn't have been for the red flag Alonso would have won. If Button had put on primes instead of options he could have went to the finish, instead he stopped 4 times instead of 3 (Or was it 3 instead of 2... meh, it was one more than Vettel/Alonso anyway) and won. Vettel won that race and it was a very deserving win despite that. Mclaren had Monaco on race pace, but Vettel still came out on top. I guess that is what this thread is about, Vettel can still win when he's not in the fastest car and when his pit crew make a mistake and he loses time.

 

[PeterJB]

Well, Monaco is an odd one. I think if it hadn't have been for the red flag Alonso would have won. If Button had put on primes instead of options he could have went to the finish, instead he stopped 4 times instead of 3 (Or was it 3 instead of 2... meh, it was one more than Vettel/Alonso anyway) and won. Vettel won that race and it was a very deserving win despite that. Mclaren had Monaco on race pace, but Vettel still came out on top. I guess that is what this thread is about, Vettel can still win when he's not in the fastest car and when his pit crew make a mistake and he loses time.

Exactly, whenever people do well, everyone says its the car. It's the team as a whole that brings the success.

 

[Blaze_409]

That must have been in another dimension because in this dimension RBR did not dominate anything in Monaco.

It was a healthy dose of luck that kept Vettel in the lead.
Hamilton was the fastest guy on track but the team obviously burned that one.

I wont question anybody's ability to read but please go back to my post. I said LAST Year...........

Were all in the same dimension......... look again:

So i guess this is why they dominated Monaco

They dominated Monaco last year because of a combination of mechanical grip and Engine driveability.

 

[Seismica]

Exactly, whenever people do they, everyone says its the car. It's the team as a whole that brings the success.

It is yes, but even with Vettel's pit crew making a mistake at Monaco (I believe he lost 2 or 3 seconds) he still won, with a car that here was inferior to the Mclaren.

I wont question anybody's ability to read but please go back to my post. I said LAST Year...........

Were all in the same dimension......... look again:

You have a very valid point, but we were talking about this years Red Bull on the subject of Mechanical grip, that's a whole year of development that could have affected the car. (Nevertheless I agree with you, The RB6 and RB7 have great mechanical grip, the thing about Red Bulls being harder to drive than the Mclaren or ferrari when in traffic is a load of nonsense).

 

[Centura]

a) This is where Red Bull have the real advantage, it's a fantastic team effort, and that is what wins you Championships. Their strategies almost always work out perfectly, plus, Vettel and the pit crew make very few mistakes. How many times have we seen foiled pit stops and strategies that went down the toilet from the other teams this year?

They put the wrong tyres on Vettel's car (and Webber?) in Monaco and it was a pretty slow pit stop because they wasn't ready for him.

 

[hampus_dh]

In the race Red Bull only won because a) Button pitted once more than he had to, a failed tyre strategy that surrendered his track position and b) They were allowed to change tyres at the Red Flag.

No he did not, he was running super softs, that´s why he went in one more time then Vettel.

What Vettel did was abort his last pitstop after getting the information that he will not come out ahead if he came in.

So he stayed out instead because that was his ONLY choice to win the race as both Button and Alonso were faster then him throughout the race.

The fact that the red flag came out was like a sign for Vettel like "don´t worry i got you, here are some fresh rubber for you"

Changing tires during red flag should be banned, they just destroyed the best scrap of the year.

I wont question anybody's ability to read but please go back to my post. I said LAST Year...........

Were all in the same dimension......... look again:

Again, they did not dominate anything last year.
The Renault of Kubica crossed the finish line 1,6 seconds after Webber.

Massa 2.6 seconds. Domination is what Senna did, pulling out 40 seconds on his teammate and the rest.

 

[Seismica]

No he did not, he was running super softs, that´s why he went in one more time then Vettel.

What Vettel did was abort his last pitstop after getting the information that he will not come out ahead if he came in.

You just contradicted yourself, he went in one more time than Vettel because he put the super softs on. Button came in and got option tyres on his third stop (Which at the time were the softer compound, the super softs) when he should have got the primes (softs). This mistake meant regardless of anyone elses strategy, he HAD to pit again for primes/softs.

This was their strategy, and it was the wrong strategy. I was shouting at the TV and Ted kravitz was confused as to why he didn't get primes aswell, he was expecting them to put on the primes to go until the end. Giving up track position for slightly fresher tyres at the end is a VERY bad idea at Monaco. Even without the Red Flag, Button couldn't realistically have won it unless the other two made mistakes.

Vettel didn't pit because Alonso didn't pit. He was covering Alonso, he wasn't reacting to Button.

 

[hampus_dh]

Button couldn't realistically have won it unless the other two made mistakes.

Yes he could. The reason him or Alonso did not win was because Vettel did not go in when he really needed to because Alonso and Button were hunting him down and he would have not made it out ahead of them.

Vettel was forced to make it a 1-stopper or else he would have lost the race.

 

[F1 fan]

That must have been in another dimension because in this dimension RBR did not dominate anything in Monaco.

It was a healthy dose of luck that kept Vettel in the lead.
Hamilton was the fastest guy on track but the team obviously burned that one.

Q1

H - 1:15.207
V - 1:15.606

Q2

H - 1:14.275
V - 1:14.277

H - No time
V - 1:13.556

Race

1. Vettel
2. Alonso +1.1 secs
3. Button +2.3 secs

Red flag came just in the right time and obviously new tires is ok to put on..
Webber came fourth btw,

Firstly, you should be aware that Vettel set the second fastest qualifying time in the history of the Monaco grand prix. Secondly, you should be aware that the race was red flagged due to an accident, and the stewards gave the go ahead for everyone to change tyres. You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that Vettel long stint on the same set of tyres was amazing and few thought it possible.

In other words, you are just spitting the dummy out about something you can't change.

Changing tires during red flag should be banned, they just destroyed the best scrap of the year.

Yes, and I'm sure that was Vettel's fault...

Lastly, you double post all the time. Use the edit button.