Will General Motors declare bankruptcy?

[VIPFREAK]

...The Sky is going to be the same as the new Opel Speedster and Vauxhall VX220 replacements... The same can be said of the new Saturn Aura wich will be the same as the new Vectra...

:sigh: yeah... I'd figure you'd say that. Dummy down thanks once again.

The Saturn Aura is an amazing looking car...I'm glad they got rid of the goofy looking L-series look.

At this point it's the only thing worth looking forward too.

 

[skip0110]

To make my statement more clear:

When I talked about cutting lineups, I was refering to cutting models... Pontiac rebadges too many Chevrolets, and the same can be said for Buick and GMC.

Pontiac needs to drop the Torrent, Montana SV6, and the possible G8 sedan...
Buick needs to cut the Raineer and Rendezvous (sp?) for the new crossover...
GMC needs to figure out a way to make their trucks different...

Saab and Hummer should both stay in the lineups, but they may need to restructure as well. GM (IMO) should dump Suzuki and Isuzu, but keep Daewoo as they are essential to strong GM sales in Asia.

Mostly agreed.

With Hummer and GMC as truck/SUV-only brands, I don't think that Buick or Pontiac should be offering trucks, SUVs, or crossovers.

GM has already invested too much into Saab and Hummer to drop them. Also, they do not directly compete with other GM brands. They can stay.

Having a G8 (large sporting sedan) and moving Pontiac upmarket, towards BMW/Audi/Acura territory would be a good move. Meanwhile Buick can move towards more relaxed luxury, sort of a Lexus-fighter.

Saturn as rebadged Opels can remain the import-fighting brand, and Chevy and hand out the plebian mass-market/fleet cars with a few sports cars to spice up the brand. All the diesels, duallies, and HD trucks should be GMC only.

Isuzu is a very sick patient, it should be dumped.

Cadillac, currently the only truly healthy patient, should be left to it's own devices. It seems to have strong direction.

 

[Joey D]

At this point it's the only thing worth looking forward too.

Not at all, the VUE Greenline will be one of the cheapest hybrid SUVs on the market and the new Ion Redline will be 280hp and AWD come 2008 or 09.

 

[Poverty]

You know that lexus hybrid well some people are saying its a scam and that really the thing will still be a tree killing troll.

 

[1X83Z]

What are you talking about? You know the pickup truck market is huge. If it wasn't the F-150 wouldn't be the best selling vehicle in the WORLD.

the f-series is the best-seller, not the f-150. go back and re-read my replies in that minivan thread.

Saturn does not, and all of their cars are rebadged (now ugly) Chevrolets.

i urge you to name one single saturn that is a rebadged chevrolet. and no, the vue does not count - not only did it debut before the chevrolet equinox, the sole component those vehicles share is a platform. zero else. the pontiac torrent is a rebadged equinox - vue has nothing in common.

The Solstice Coupe would be a better appropriation of funds than the Sky.

you're missing the point of the sky. saturn dealers are stand-alone, and that makes it tough to get people walking through the doors. i've heard on more than one occaision that the sky is there to spice things up and draw people inside. and guess what? it's going to work.

The VUE is a shadow of it's former self, making it totally worthless.
The Chevy versions of the Saturn products are just as good or better in every way (Ie. Equinox vs. VUE. The VUE incredibly cramped inside, which the Equinox is not.).

how is the equinox better than the vue? it offers less features at a higher price while simultaneously offering almost 100 less horsepower and one less transmission gear. the equinox is a total piece of **** compared to the vue, which is the largest small suv there is (cramped my ass - i'm six-three and i fit just fine; it's got a lot more room in back than the ford escape). furthermore, the vue uses a best-in-class engine and offers a great value because of it. your comments are just ignorant - you haven't checked the facts.

 

[Joey D]

Isn't the VUE one of the quickest FWD one the market?

 

[YSSMAN]

...I belive the biggest difference between the VUE and the Equinox under the skin is the Honda V6 under the hood of the Saturn... Chevy chugs along with the 3500 V6 and the 5-speed automatic that is shared with the lower-level VUEs.

The Saturn Sky may end up selling better than the Solstice twin because it has more liveability packaged into it. More comfortable seats, more of a plush suspension setup, and more than likely a better selection of standard equipment. Of course, the Saturn Sky Redline (I allready dont care much for the name) may outdo the Pontiac Solstice GXP... As for strapping a hardtop on either model, I personally think the Pontiac would fare much better stylistically. But then again, if Chevy gets smart and builds the Nomad concept from 2003, that would easily be the best Kappa-Coupe.

 

[1X83Z]

Isn't the VUE one of the quickest FWD one the market?

it's up there. the real shining statistic is that at 6.6 seconds to 60mph, it's the quickets two-wheel drive suv ever built. it's also quicker than the infiniti fx45 and bmw x5 4.6i, among other "performance" suvs.

 

[Joey D]

Really? Damn the VUE's are quick. Faster then a FX45 and a X5? Psssh that's pretty funny a Saturn beats them.

Off topic - You still have the Typhoon?

 

[YSSMAN]

...Sad that the high-performance VUE had to take it's engine out of the Accord... Even I will admit defeat on that arguement...

 

[Tornado]

i urge you to name one single saturn that is a rebadged chevrolet. and no, the vue does not count - not only did it debut before the chevrolet equinox, the sole component those vehicles share is a platform. zero else. the pontiac torrent is a rebadged equinox - vue has nothing in common.

The Ion (no, I do not care which one came out first). The Relay. Upcoming Sky (fine, it's a Pontiac. A moot point).

you're missing the point of the sky. saturn dealers are stand-alone, and that makes it tough to get people walking through the doors. i've heard on more than one occaision that the sky is there to spice things up and draw people inside. and guess what? it's going to work.

So GM spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get people just to come into Saturn showrooms? Not, GM spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to sell a car which has no direct rivals? Besides, just because people go into showrooms does not mean they wil buy, especially if the line-up is more-or-less lackluster.

how is the equinox better than the vue? it offers less features at a higher price while simultaneously offering almost 100 less horsepower and one less transmission gear. the equinox is a total piece of **** compared to the vue, which is the largest small suv there is (cramped my ass - i'm six-three and i fit just fine; it's got a lot more room in back than the ford escape). furthermore, the vue uses a best-in-class engine and offers a great value because of it. your comments are just ignorant - you haven't checked the facts.

Motor Trend doesn't seem to agree. In fact, the only thing they said was any better was the VUE's engine.

 

[skip0110]

i urge you to name one single saturn that is a rebadged chevrolet. and no, the vue does not count - not only did it debut before the chevrolet equinox, the sole component those vehicles share is a platform. zero else. the pontiac torrent is a rebadged equinox - vue has nothing in common.

Saturn sells 3 cars.
Saturn Ion = Chevy Cobalt (Delta platform)
Saturn Vue = Chevy Equinox (Theta platform)
Saturn Relay = Chevy Uplander (U platform)

 

[Joey D]

The VUE and the Equinox are very different. But the Cobalt is a rebadged Saturn more or less since the Ion was around before the Cobalt...more or less though they are the same thing. The Relay is just utter crap, don't even mention it. I think the same people who designed the Aztek designed the new line of mini vans.

 

[niky]

RE: Cobalt and Ion... Aren't they both engineered off the new Astra platform? Or is it the other way around?

Now I'm confused.

 

[skip0110]

RE: Cobalt and Ion... Aren't they both engineered off the new Astra platform? Or is it the other way around?

Now I'm confused.

The Astra is actually unrelated. Opel was going to use the Delta platform for the Astra, but decided instead to just update the old Astra platform.

The Cobalt has some improvements over the Ion, but with the Ion's 2008 redesign these will make there way back to it.

 

[YSSMAN]

Toronado: How do the Sky and Solstice not have any direct competition when there are cars like the MX5, S2000, Z4, TT 1.8T, 350Z, SLK280, Elise, and hell even the Mustang GT... Both in "stock" form or with the Turbocharged versions under the Redline and GXP badges, these cars are pretty compeditive...

Saturn sells 3 cars.
Saturn Ion = Chevy Cobalt (Delta platform)
Saturn Vue = Chevy Equinox (Theta platform)
Saturn Relay = Chevy Uplander (U platform)

All three of the Chevrolet versions came out AFTER the Saturn versions. The Cobalt was an extensive reworking of the Ion because so many people hated that car so much.

The VUE had been out almost two years before the Equinox hit showrooms, and even then the Chevrolet version is pretty heavily modified compared to it's Theta sister. I believe the Equinox has a longer wheelbase and overall length, which would account for the reasons why the VUE overall, is more sporty in nature.

The Relay on the other hand was a van that was released before the Uplander but it was developed alongside not only the Chevrolet, but also the Pontiac Montana SV6 and Buick Terraza...All of which absolutely suck compared to the Honda Oddesey and Toyota Sienna.

...Saturn is a good brand if you are looking for an affordable, no-nonsence car for a pretty reasonable price. The notion of the plastic bodypannels although strange has caught on a bit, and Saturn has a good reputation of being some of the frendliest dealers to visit in the US.

Now that they are going to be introducing Opels as Saturns and therefore begining to compete with the higher-end Hondas, Toyotas, and Acuras... It is a good move for Saturn in the long-run if they can diversify their lineup to appeal to a wide range of customers while continuing to offer good service and great prices.

 

[niky]

The Astra is actually unrelated. Opel was going to use the Delta platform for the Astra, but decided instead to just update the old Astra platform.

The Cobalt has some improvements over the Ion, but with the Ion's 2008 redesign these will make there way back to it.

I'd always thought it was the opposite. Thanks a lot, GM, for being confusing for the sake of being confusing. Thanks for the info.

 

[1X83Z]

The Ion (no, I do not care which one came out first). The Relay. Upcoming Sky (fine, it's a Pontiac. A moot point).

haha. okay i admit i was wrong on one case - i forgot about the relay.

let's start with the vue. (skip, pay attention here too) yes, the vehicles share a platform. however in order to be "a rebadged version", the vehicles must share architecture and engines. some might even say trim packages and things of that sort, but these days rebadged cars aren't like that. so, do they share engines? decidedly not. equinox's only engine is a ****ty 185-horsepower 3.4-liter v6 that i'd bet my life is using a pushrod design. vue comes in two engines, either a 2.2-liter 4-cylinder or a honda-derived 3.5-liter dohc v6. the v6 is new - what about the engine it replaced? was it the same as the equinox? no - it was saturn's own british built 181-horsepower 3-liter. so the vehicles share no engines and never have. now do they share architecture? well, here's a little comparison. on top is the equinox and its actual rebadged version, the pontiac torrent. below is the equinox and the vue, which share not one single body panel. worse, they share no interior or exterior dimension and their wheelbases, which usually define twins, are nearly six inches apart.

equniox vs. torrent

equinox vs. vue

now even if all of the above were true - shared engines, shared architecture, shared trims - the chevrolet would still be the rebadged version, since it debuted long after the unbelievably brilliant saturn vue, released for my 2002.

onto ion. the exact same holds true here. not a single shared body panel, and it's not even similar. engines are indeed the same, but strikes two and three: wheelbase is marginally different (length is notably different) and, worse yet, the saturn debuted first. therefore: the chevrolet cobalt is a mechanical twin - but not a rebadged - saturn ion. so i'm two for two.

sky has no chevrolet twin. moot point? don't be ridiculous. three for three. (four when you include relay)

i rest my case.

So GM spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get people just to come into Saturn showrooms? Not, GM spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to sell a car which has no direct rivals? Besides, just because people go into showrooms does not mean they wil buy, especially if the line-up is more-or-less lackluster.

i've made the point over and over about image cars on this forum. i won't do it again for your benefit. just look through my old posts - you could learn some things. the ford gt serves the same purpose.

Motor Trend doesn't seem to agree. In fact, the only thing they said was any better was the VUE's engine.

wow. you quoted motor trend. i think i've proved my point.

 

[YSSMAN]

...When was the last time Motor Trend was actually a credible automagazine in the US?

I used to say that Motor Trend was kinda like that kid you used to go to Highschool with... Ya know, the one with the '77 Trans Am that only did burnouts and doughnuts in the parking lot while jaming to Twisted Sister...

Not to say that their edditors and the views arent somewhat correct, they just seem so dumbed-down that it is hard to even understand where they are comming from...

I will give them credit on their ability to drive cars and the fact that they somehow get rides like the Pagani Zonda F, Ferrari FXX, and a few other select foreign market cars for their magazine...

But, I have always been and will always be a C/D boy...


BTW: Just got the March issue of C/D, the 997 911 Turbo is on the cover... To sum it up quickly, the XLR-V kicks ass, the GTI is better than the Si, The Cayman tops the Exige, and the Trailblazer SS is a better choise than the Cherokee SRT-8... I suggest you pick it up, this issue kicks ass!

 

[skip0110]

BTW: Just got the March issue of C/D, the 997 911 Turbo is on the cover... To sum it up quickly, the XLR-V kicks ass, the GTI is better than the Si, The Cayman tops the Exige, and the Trailblazer SS is a better choise than the Cherokee SRT-8... I suggest you pick it up, this issue kicks ass!

March isn't out here yet (I just looked today)

Sounds like a good issue though 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

...I just got it in the mail today... It usually doesnt hit newstands untill the first week of the month, but subscribers generally get theirs a bit early. For some reason my grandfather always gets his C/D before I do, and he only lives 25 minutes away...

 

[McLaren]

Had it for a few days.

I only read the Preview on the Gallardo Spyder though.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Interesting that the Trailblazer SS lost to the Cherokee SRT-8 in every performance category but made up for it because of it's towing ability and everyday useability.

...Although, I have to admit I am happiest to see the VW GTI get the nod over that new Civic Si. The VW has so much more to offer, and for a few grand extra, its pretty easy to see why.

 

[Joey D]

A buddy of mines dad brought an SRT-8 home from work and it didn't impress me all that much. The Trailblazer SS wasn't all that impressive either, but seeing as I dislike the style of Jeeps in general I would much rather go for an SS. But still as far as performance SUV's go, you can't beat a Typhoon.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

what does the SRT-8 run in the 1/4?

 

[McLaren]

what does the SRT-8 run in the 1/4?

13.2@104mph.

SS=14.1@98mph.

 

[1X83Z]

But still as far as performance SUV's go, you can't beat a Typhoon.

you do realise that the grand cherokee srt-8 does beat the typhoon, doing 0-60 in nearly a second less than it takes the gmc. right? and it's only$40000. car of the year? hmmm....

 

[McLaren]

you do realise that the grand cherokee srt-8 does beat the typhoon, doing 0-60 in nearly a second less than it takes the gmc. right? and it's only$40000. car of the year? hmmm....

I don't know the Typhoon's 0-60, but R&T got 4.5 for the SRT-8 and 5.5 for the SS.

 

[1X83Z]

I don't know the Typhoon's 0-60, but R&T got 4.5 for the SRT-8 and 5.5 for the SS.

the correct times:

jeep grand cherokee srt-8: 4.9 seconds
gmc typhoon: 5.6 seconds
porsche cayenne turbo: 5.8 seconds

it's not even close.

trailblazer ss would probably finish fourth or so.

 

[Joey D]

The Typhoon is 13 years older too and still right up there.