Would you like the next GT to be a hardcore sim?

[fastone371]

I don't pay attention to it much though. I'd rather look at the graph of the powerband for the engine's HP & torque in the menu to know more about the engine's behavior and performance at certain ranges.

That's fine but it will not tell you the engine will perform in the car due to gear ratios, weight, etc.

 

[breeminator]

Already GTS can be driven in both ways : in an more sim way (no aids, even abs OFF) or in a more arcade way with some or a lot of aids ON.

For me, this has nothing at all to do with arcade vs sim. Real cars have driving aids, so accurately replicating those in a game is 100% sim. What "sim" should mean is accurately replicating real world behaviour, including real world driving aids where they are available in the real car. If a real car has launch control that gets it from 0-60 faster than anyone can achieve with manual control, then "sim" would be replicating that in the game so that every player gets a perfect start off the grid. Not allowing its use in the game would be fake difficulty, not sim at all, but quite possibly what many people have in mind when they ask for "hardcore sim".

 

[GTV0819]

That's fine but it will not tell you the engine will perform in the car due to gear ratios, weight, etc.

Yes. I know many factors can affect an engine's performance and gear ratios or weight can be adjusted but then again, we're talking about turbo lag or boost threshold here which is why I have brought it up.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

For me, this has nothing at all to do with arcade vs sim. Real cars have driving aids, so accurately replicating those in a game is 100% sim. What "sim" should mean is accurately replicating real world behaviour, including real world driving aids where they are available in the real car. If a real car has launch control that gets it from 0-60 faster than anyone can achieve with manual control, then "sim" would be replicating that in the game so that every player gets a perfect start off the grid. Not allowing its use in the game would be fake difficulty, not sim at all, but quite possibly what many people have in mind when they ask for "hardcore sim".

This does raise a rather interesting point: should racing game devs look at replicating a car's real-world driver aid suite? Is that even possible/feasible? I imagine some of the more complicated ones, like Ferrari's, require way more computing power than is reasonable for a $60 game. The new Huracan Evo has an entire ECU dedicated to its driver modes. Not only would it be a lot of work, but I wonder if the companies would be okay with sharing such info with a developer. Then there's the question of how players would take advantage of all of them in game. How would a player fiddle with a Ferrari's manettino?

I'd find it fascinating if we ever got that, but I'm not holding my breath.

One of the advantages of global assists, outside of the ease from a dev perspective, is that they can help folks wrangle cars that they otherwise couldn't. If someone needs hand-holding as they drive a Shelby Cobra, that's fine in my books.

...

As for the OP's question: nah. GT has never been a "hardcore" sim, and I don't think it ever will be so long as it's integral to the PlayStation platform. All those super-cereal PC sims sell a fraction of what it does, and I think PD has found a good balance between approachability and realism. It's close enough for most players, and still requires quite a bit of skill to be really quick in — skills that largely have at least a semblance of real-world applicability.

 

[oneloops]

For me, this has nothing at all to do with arcade vs sim. Real cars have driving aids, so accurately replicating those in a game is 100% sim. What "sim" should mean is accurately replicating real world behaviour, including real world driving aids where they are available in the real car. If a real car has launch control that gets it from 0-60 faster than anyone can achieve with manual control, then "sim" would be replicating that in the game so that every player gets a perfect start off the grid. Not allowing its use in the game would be fake difficulty, not sim at all, but quite possibly what many people have in mind when they ask for "hardcore sim".

For me, in real world, driving aids make driving more arcade, like in any sim and game.

The only difference is the limit of what can they fake (or do autonomously)... like for example in real world you can't get free boost or hitting a wall at high speed without mechanical damage.

But autonomous driving is already 100% arcade real life driving, almost like if you activate all aids in a game.
Nothing to do with winning easily with aids, but make driving and control easier.

That's the good point on GT games, hardcore sim drivers are quicker than arcade drivers... so in this matter GT is not an arcade game (yes, I know, cyclical discussion... and my point of wiew is not the most common point of view )

For me, all is arcade and sim at certain levels, nothing is pure A or B. It depends of personnal criteria and personnal focus while playing. Any sim is always a game, any game is always simulating something with more or less error. Any competition is already a game and a simulation.

"Not allowing its use in the game would be fake difficulty, not sim at all, but quite possibly what many people have in mind when they ask for "hardcore sim"." I don't agree with that, any game and any competition have their rules, nothing to do with "fake difficulty" but with "game/competition rules"

 

[oneloops]

This does raise a rather interesting point: should racing game devs look at replicating a car's real-world driver aid suite? Is that even possible/feasible? I imagine some of the more complicated ones, like Ferrari's, require way more computing power than is reasonable for a $60 game. The new Huracan Evo has an entire ECU dedicated to its driver modes. Not only would it be a lot of work, but I wonder if the companies would be okay with sharing such info with a developer. Then there's the question of how players would take advantage of all of them in game. How would a player fiddle with a Ferrari's manettino?

I'd find it fascinating if we ever got that, but I'm not holding my breath.

One of the advantages of global assists, outside of the ease from a dev perspective, is that they can help folks wrangle cars that they otherwise couldn't. If someone needs hand-holding as they drive a Shelby Cobra, that's fine in my books.

...

As for the OP's question: nah. GT has never been a "hardcore" sim, and I don't think it ever will be so long as it's integral to the PlayStation platform. All those super-cereal PC sims sell a fraction of what it does, and I think PD has found a good balance between approachability and realism. It's close enough for most players, and still requires quite a bit of skill to be really quick in — skills that largely have at least a semblance of real-world applicability.

Great first part I agree.

For the second part, driving a car and some racing cars is easy for most of people,
why "approachability" in GT is not the same thing than realism then ?

For me, if a sim is more difficult than the real thing then it's not a good sim.
GT has that great point on real "natural control" at the beginning that some other called "sims" (they are all games) haven't.
This attribute is commonly underrated by some kind of people and I don't understand them.

 

[GTV0819]

Isn't driving aids already found in the race settings which you can adjust before starting the race? I mean it's the one where it also includes the driving line, transmission choice, ABS, steering sensitivity and many more.

 

[breeminator]

Isn't driving aids already found in the race settings which you can adjust before starting the race? I mean it's the one where it also includes the driving line, transmission choice, ABS, steering sensitivity and many more.

Yes, but these are generic aids, and in general, cars perform better with them off, with the exception that most people use default ABS.

The last few cars I've owned in real life have all had stability control that is on by default. I've tried the cars with it turned off, but it has seemed clear to me that the cars have been engineered to only drive as intended when it is on. With it off, even changing lanes on a motorway can make the car feel unstable. So I would argue that accurately simulating that car in a game should give optimal performance with that stability control operational.

 

[fastone371]

Yes, but these are generic aids, and in general, cars perform better with them off, with the exception that most people use default ABS.

The last few cars I've owned in real life have all had stability control that is on by default. I've tried the cars with it turned off, but it has seemed clear to me that the cars have been engineered to only drive as intended when it is on. With it off, even changing lanes on a motorway can make the car feel unstable. So I would argue that accurately simulating that car in a game should give optimal performance with that stability control operational.

I find it odd that you like the way cars drive better with Stability and Traction Control on in real life. I really have only had the opportunity to test these systems on snow covered roads as I dont want the jail time associated with wringing them out on public dry roads but to me even ABS interferes far too much with normal car operation. So much so that I have often thought about disabling the ABS on my daily driver. 2 things I hate about ABS is that that it basically removes all control from the driver in snow/ice covered roads to where I feel I can get the car stopped quicker without ABS and also when hitting a sizable bump on dry roads the ABS will also start to activate under heavy braking. As far as Stability and Traction control they interfere too much and seem slow to recover, maybe a Ferrari or Bugatti is better than a Cadillac or Corvette but I have not had the chance to try either yet.

 

[o000o]

I would like to see:

Car customization where you can take any road car and upgrade it to a "competition version".

Go after some licenses from the 90's. The1998 BTCC touring cars to be specific. The whole field!

If you played earlier GTs (PS1), they have "Racing Modification"

 

[breeminator]

I find it odd that you like the way cars drive better with Stability and Traction Control on in real life. I really have only had the opportunity to test these systems on snow covered roads as I dont want the jail time associated with wringing them out on public dry roads but to me even ABS interferes far too much with normal car operation. So much so that I have often thought about disabling the ABS on my daily driver. 2 things I hate about ABS is that that it basically removes all control from the driver in snow/ice covered roads to where I feel I can get the car stopped quicker without ABS and also when hitting a sizable bump on dry roads the ABS will also start to activate under heavy braking. As far as Stability and Traction control they interfere too much and seem slow to recover, maybe a Ferrari or Bugatti is better than a Cadillac or Corvette but I have not had the chance to try either yet.

My car doesn't have traction control, only stability control, and it's clear that they really don't intend you to turn it off, you have to hold a button down for several seconds to turn it off, and a warning light is permanently on while it's off. It feels like the car is like a modern fighter jet where it's simply inherently unstable without that electronic assistance. I agree these things can cause huge problems in snow, but that is extremely rare where I live. My car doesn't have any option to turn ABS off. So I'm just talking about that built in stability control that seems like it has been totally integrated into the design of the car such that the car doesn't really drive properly without it. Edit: Perhaps a better way to explain it is that if you turn off the stability control in these recent cars where they strongly discourage you from turning it off, the car doesn't drive anything like an older car that didn't have the stability control at all. Those older cars drove absolutely fine without stability control. These recent cars that appear to have been designed around the stability control being present, drive just like the older cars when you have the stability control on. I can't actually discern any intervention from the stability control. But if I turn it off, the car drives terribly, nothing at all like an older car that didn't have the stability control.

Incidentally, I also recently looked into whether it is safe to drive a modern car without ABS, as a relative's ABS pump failed. Some people said it's not the same as driving a car that doesn't have ABS at all, in that cars with ABS lack a component that is present on cars without ABS that makes them worse at braking with ABS turned off vs a car that doesn't have ABS at all, because they rely on the ABS system doing the job of balancing front and rear braking.

 

[GTV0819]

Yes, but these are generic aids, and in general, cars perform better with them off, with the exception that most people use default ABS.

The last few cars I've owned in real life have all had stability control that is on by default. I've tried the cars with it turned off, but it has seemed clear to me that the cars have been engineered to only drive as intended when it is on. With it off, even changing lanes on a motorway can make the car feel unstable. So I would argue that accurately simulating that car in a game should give optimal performance with that stability control operational.

So it's simply a sad thing that even this one, they are not able to implement it properly.

 

[KinLM]

If you made this a hardcore Sim, you realize that driving Group 1 cars would be impossible right? There is more to shifting those things than just a paddle. Have to grab the clutch from the side of the wheel with one hand and then shift with the other. Imagine having to do this at 195 MPH?

As someone else said, this is not true at all.

Just like in F1, the hand-operated clutch is only for starting off.

The rest of the time, the shifting process is completely automated aside from pulling a paddle on the driver’s end.

This is because these cars use race-oriented sequential transmissions, which (for reasons that are far too complex to get into on here, as well as I’m no expert and don’t want to speak above my knowledge) do not require user input of the clutch between gear changes.

They act very similar to Dual Clutches in this aspect, except the way they work internally isn’t the same.. but, regardless. I highly suggest doing some research on youtube and other sites as to how sequentials work; very interesting.

 

[Novalee]

— skills that largely have at least a semblance of real-world applicability.

i dont see how outside of hand eye cordination as very little in gts approaches how even a simple car works . did gts change the throttle input to progressive yet ? same as brakes are they progressive yet ? does gts model shocks in a realistic way ? tire wear ? is it based on simulated rubber heating up and wearing away or a multiplier ? tire pressures are they modeled ?

im a if its fun then its good type of person regardless of if a game is simming anything , but i would argue out of all the racing games that try and sim a car , gts is at the bottom of the pile .

 

[KinLM]

i dont see how outside of hand eye cordination as very little in gts approaches how even a simple car works . did gts change the throttle input to progressive yet ? same as brakes are they progressive yet ? does gts model shocks in a realistic way ? tire wear ? is it based on simulated rubber heating up and wearing away or a multiplier ? tire pressures are they modeled ?

im a if its fun then its good type of person regardless of if a game is simming anything , but i would argue out of all the racing games that try and sim a car , gts is at the bottom of the pile .

This is a poor argument.

You can simulate a lot of different factors, but if they are not simulated well, then it’s meaningless. (Such as NFS Shift 2).

Conversely, you can simulate things in a very simplified manner, but if that simplified simulation is done well and mimics real life, then it can still be a good simulation.

GTSport (and Gran Turismo, as a whole, really) seems to have always done a relatively good job of making a fairly convincing simulation from seemingly rudimentary framework.

As such, clearly there is a lot of shared skills between GTSport and real driving. Otherwise, I don’t think GTAcademy Divers would’ve had the success that they have. I don’t think real racing drivers would use the game and be at the top of leaderboards either (such as Igor Fraga is, I believe).

Clearly there is a large amount of similarity, even if GT Sport isn’t getting everything right, it (as well as past GTs) seems to do a good job of representing some of the fundamental rules of driving, such as how throttle and braking can affect car behavior, how bumps, crests, and dips can change your overall grip, how to take certain racing lines to maximize speed, etc. Not saying it is a 1:1 of life, but just saying that it clearly does a good job with the “simplified” simulation technique.

 

[Novalee]

Clearly there is a large amount of similarity, even if GT Sport isn’t getting everything right, it (as well as past GTs) seems to do a good job of representing some of the fundamental rules of driving, such as how throttle and braking can affect car behavior, how bumps, crests, and dips can change your overall grip, how to take certain racing lines to maximize speed, etc. Not saying it is a 1:1 of life, but just saying that it clearly does a good job with the “simplified” simulation technique.

so how many drivers have publicly stated they use gtsport to get better in a real life racing series ? i saw a female that races a nurb that said she used gtsport to learn the track but it was more of a advertisment for gtsport than an actual testiment to simulating her driving experiance on the track .

as for igor he said he grew up using gran tourismo so i i would expect him to be good at gt driving physics .

and lastly my opinion on this doesnt doan anything as its my opinion so it really is nothing for anyone to feel defensive about . we all have opinions .

i to drove real race cars and that is what i base my opinion on and just real world driving . i had tons of fun on gt6 but i never once thought i i was driving anything close to a real experiance . other games i have but not this one .

 

[Dogwolf77]

Why not have multiple modes. Hardcore can have the full strategic experience and a separate mode similar to the current GT Sport today.

 

[GTV0819]

so how many drivers have publicly stated they use gtsport to get better in a real life racing series ? i saw a female that races a nurb that said she used gtsport to learn the track but it was more of a advertisment for gtsport than an actual testiment to simulating her driving experiance on the track .

as for igor he said he grew up using gran tourismo so i i would expect him to be good at gt driving physics .

and lastly my opinion on this doesnt doan anything as its my opinion so it really is nothing for anyone to feel defensive about . we all have opinions .

i to drove real race cars and that is what i base my opinion on and just real world driving . i had tons of fun on gt6 but i never once thought i i was driving anything close to a real experiance . other games i have but not this one .

There is no perfect video game at all which is a car or driving simulator that does a perfect job of simulating real life experience of driving a car.

However, in terms of being a driving simulator, GT games do a pretty good job, if not excellent, especially when compared to the NFS games, which are mostly arcade-like, as well as some of the Forza titles.

Admittedly though, there's still a lot of job or fixes to be done if GT is going to be a hardcore driving simulator someday but in general, it's quite good.

 

[KinLM]

There is no perfect video game at all which is a car or driving simulator that does a perfect job of simulating real life experience of driving a car.

However, in terms of being a driving simulator, GT games do a pretty good job, if not excellent, especially when compared to the NFS games, which are mostly arcade-like, as well as some of the Forza titles.

Admittedly though, there's still a lot of job or fixes to be done if GT is going to be a hardcore driving simulator someday but in general, it's quite good.

This is exactly what I was trying to say with my post.

GT Sport isn’t perfect, it isn’t on the level of hardcore sims and it could use lots of improvement.

But I still believe, especially with the use of a wheel, that it is at the level that it can, at *minimum*, convey the basics of car behavior and car control into the real world; things like correcting for oversteer, slow in fast out, braking in a straight line for the best efficiency, etc. are all things which I feel like GT Sport could, at least on a basic level, teach someone for a real car.

Compared to something like Mario Kart, which I would argue has little to no bearing on the real world, GT Sport does at least have a resemblance on the real world.

No, it doesn’t simulate the more complex issues like brake temperature, tire pressure fluctuation, etc. But it still simulates more than I think you realize.


Back in GT6 days, I believe I even proved that air temperature (and thus, density) has an effect on top speed (using SSRX).

Whether this was a function of surface grip/friction, or a drag coefficient change, GTSport simulated hotter (and thus, thinner) air as allowing higher top speeds. They don’t get everything right but it’s clear that they are making an attempt.

There is also evidence to suggest that the time of day in GTSport affects the surface temp of the track, having an effect on car balance and overall grip. I haven’t tested this myself but considering the former, it would not surprise me.

I have also been told that tire temps are, indeed, simulated in GTSport. We simply don’t get access to the precise numbers, so gaining any real data on this is nearly impossible with the vague color indicators circling the tire life display we get on the HUD.

 

[GTV0819]

This is exactly what I was trying to say with my post.

GT Sport isn’t perfect, it isn’t on the level of hardcore sims and it could use lots of improvement.

But I still believe, especially with the use of a wheel, that it is at the level that it can, at *minimum*, convey the basics of car behavior and car control into the real world; things like correcting for oversteer, slow in fast out, braking in a straight line for the best efficiency, etc. are all things which I feel like GT Sport could, at least on a basic level, teach someone for a real car.

Compared to something like Mario Kart, which I would argue has little to no bearing on the real world, GT Sport does at least have a resemblance on the real world.

No, it doesn’t simulate the more complex issues like brake temperature, tire pressure fluctuation, etc. But it still simulates more than I think you realize.


Back in GT6 days, I believe I even proved that air temperature (and thus, density) has an effect on top speed (using SSRX).

Whether this was a function of surface grip/friction, or a drag coefficient change, GTSport simulated hotter (and thus, thinner) air as allowing higher top speeds. They don’t get everything right but it’s clear that they are making an attempt.

There is also evidence to suggest that the time of day in GTSport affects the surface temp of the track, having an effect on car balance and overall grip. I haven’t tested this myself but considering the former, it would not surprise me.

I have also been told that tire temps are, indeed, simulated in GTSport. We simply don’t get access to the precise numbers, so gaining any real data on this is nearly impossible with the vague color indicators circling the tire life display we get on the HUD.

That said, I wish GT7 will be a lot better in terms of being realistic.

One main thing I didn't like about GT is that you need very high HP yet very light cars so that it would feel fast enough. Otherwise, it would feel as if they're very slow, regardless if they have good power-to-weight ratios.

Another thing I have observed is that road production cars feel wobbly when driven. By this, I mean it's not as planted as a race car in various tracks, regardless if it's a Ferrari like the 488, F50 or any other very fast car out there so there's a higher chance that it may go out of control if you're not careful enough.

Motorsport-themed cars, such as race cars or rally cars feel planted when they are driven because they have rigid chassis with adjustable aerodynamics. Hence, they would not go out of control so easily, unless the driver is not capable of driving responsibly, you know lol.

That's why in GT5 and GT6, they generally have higher Performance Points (PP) over their equivalent road counterparts, given that they have one. What more if they have good HP/torque ratings, it would seem as if it's an overkill.

So maybe this is a characteristic of GT being more race-oriented when it comes to what traits of the cars should have in racing, even if there's many road cars that have outnumbered race cars in the previous games. I hope PD would balance this out in the future.

 

[Novalee]

I have also been told that tire temps are, indeed, simulated in GTSport. We simply don’t get access to the precise numbers, so gaining any real data on this is nearly impossible with the vague color indicators circling the tire life display we get on the HUD.

are you able to point to a statement by pd or kaz that rubber for the tires is modeled ? i would be interested to read it . also are there articles on braking systems as in hydro or by wire ? also if tire heat is modeled where would one find the temps on the game car so as to monitor it ? hoing from green to red is more pointing towards a on off type of system to me .

 

[Greycap]

hoing from green to red is more pointing towards a on off type of system to me .

What the physics engine calculates and what it shows you are two completely different things. If the optimal tyre temperature operating range is 80 to 100 degrees Celsius and complete overheating happens at 120 degrees you'd obviously like it going from blue to green between 80 and 100, then progressively reaching full red at 120 and you'd think it's a good simulation. What you don't like is nothing being shown before it gets to 120, then going full red at once and you think it's a bad simulation.

However the only difference here may very well be what's shown - the physics engine can, and probably does, do the calculations "behind the scenes" all the time as grip changes noticably at the beginning of a stint on new tyres. My own experience has shown that there may be a slightly overheated state as well, driving the car hard for a few laps even with no tyre wear on results in a noticable loss of grip which is cured by taking it slightly easier for a while.