WRC Season ArchiveRally

[prisonermonkeys]

Robert Kubica has reportedly withdrawn from Rally Sweden (though if earlier reports are to be believed, his entry was more of a placeholder in case he could make it rather than a formal submission). Still awaiting confirmation.

 

[Simmpa]

Robert Kubica has reportedly withdrawn from Rally Sweden (though if earlier reports are to be believed, his entry was more of a placeholder in case he could make it rather than a formal submission). Still awaiting confirmation.

Now with Kubica out now finally the excuses for having rally Poland can finally die, I know there is need for a rally in eastern Europe but how about one more uniqe? How about Rally Russia?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

How about Rally Russia?

Tried and failed in the days of the IRC. The focus of Russian rallying tends to be rally raids - they do reasonably well in truck category.

the excuses for having rally Poland can finally die

It's one of the oldest rallies in the world. Only Monte Carlo and the Jannerallye are older.

 

[trustjab]

Autosport reporting that Toyota is chasing Solberg and one Sebastien Loeb! Wow, that'd be some lineup.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Wow, that'd be some lineup.

Sounds more like a fantasy line-up than anything else.

 

[aarror]

Sounds more like a fantasy line-up than anything else.

Solberg was looking at joining Citroen this year, before they decided to take a 1-year hiatus: http://www.crash.net/wrc/news/226152/1/solberg-citroen-turned-down-my-wrc-offer.html
So it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he joins Toyota next year, although I'd be surprised. He's one of my favourite drivers, so I'd be stoked to see him back in the WRC.

 

[trustjab]

Why would it be a fantasy? Toyota have plenty of history and cash to swing those drivers over to their team. Solberg used to drive for Subaru, whose parent company is partially owned by Toyota. Last time Toyota was in wrc, they won. Might be a good deal to get in there early before the seat is coveted! They'll have to beat VW and Hyundai first though. That's admittedly a big unknown.

 

[Legro]

They might as well have Tommi Mäkinen as the third driver if that happens.

 

[boiltheocean]

Solberg I can see taking the chance. Loeb, not before hell freezes over will Citroen let that happen. Plus Seb isn't daft enough to turn his back on the team who will produce the better 2017 spec car.

 

[Ettick]

Solberg I can see taking the chance. Loeb, not before hell freezes over will Citroen let that happen. Plus Seb isn't daft enough to turn his back on the team who will produce the better 2017 spec car.

Isn't Loeb out of Citroën already?

 

[boiltheocean]

Nah, PSA Peugeot Citroen Group.

 

[trustjab]

He isn't tied to PSA after this year iirc?

 

[aarror]

He isn't tied to PSA after this year iirc?

He's contracted to do the Dakar with them again next year, so I'd assume he's tied to them at least until then. Last I heard he was talking with Citroen about returning to rallying. Would be very strange seeing him drive something else in the WRC.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Ford tried to get him back when they upgraded to the Focus RS and Citroën were developing the C4, but Citroën persuaded him to stay.

I doubt PSA have a contract with him that is so binding that they can keep him out of the Toyota. Even if they do have an iron-clad agreement, Toyota could always buy them out. Especially since the relationship between Loeb and Citroën has soured since they dropped him from their WTCC programme.

I actually think that it will be easier for Toyota to get Loeb than Solberg. Solberg has a good thing going in World Rallycross, and when he was driving the works Ford, he had lost his edge.

 

[boiltheocean]

What makes you think the relationship has soured? Apart from expressing "surprise" in an interview about him being dropped he's not hinted at a move elsewhere. He probably knew, maybe even asked to be dropped from WTCC so he could go do Dakar. He'd been testing the 2008DKR since half way through the 2015 WTCC season.

Not only that but it's clear SLR has entered into a junior driver development programme with Citroen. First announcing Terry Folb for a full season of J-WRC in December and just a few days ago, Quentin Giordano in a partial WRC2 programme. Both those drivers have strong links with the manufacturer.

Finally consider the mess the Toyota programme is in development wise. Two years, if not more they developed that car before bringing in Makinen, who proceeded to say he'd redo the whole thing from his shed. Meeke had the offer when his career with Citroen was on a knife-edge and he still turned them down.

Loeb will want to win if he returns and Citroen will give him a seat and the best car in the field if he wants it in 2017.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Loeb will want to win if he returns and Citroen will give him a seat and the best car in the field if he wants it in 2017.

Since when has the Citroën been the best car in the field? Or have we fallen into a time slip and wound up back in 2012?

 

[Ettick]

Since when has the Citroën been the best car in the field? Or have we fallen into a time slip and wound up back in 2012?

I think he's predicting that they'll have the best car in 2017.

 

[boiltheocean]

Since when has the Citroën been the best car in the field? Or have we fallen into a time slip and wound up back in 2012?

Or did you fail to pick up that I was obviously talking about the 2017 car? It'll be better than Toyota, better than Hyundai, possibly better than VW but it's not like Loeb could move to them and there's no point even mentioning Ford.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It'll be better than Toyota, better than Hyundai, possibly better than VW

What evidence do you have of any of this? The 2017 rules are perhaps the most significant overhaul of the regulations since the introduction of World Rally Cars in the first place. There's no way to predict who will have the better car. Your entire hypothesis seems to hinge on the assumption that if Loeb wants to return, it will be with Citroën before anyone else.

 

[MagpieRacer]

What evidence do you have of any of this? The 2017 rules are perhaps the most significant overhaul of the regulations since the introduction of World Rally Cars in the first place. There's no way to predict who will have the better car. Your entire hypothesis seems to hinge on the assumption that if Loeb wants to return, it will be with Citroën before anyone else.

History suggests when Citroen take time to develop a rally car, irrespective of anything else, it usually wins.

 

[mustafur]

History suggests when Citroen take time to develop a rally car, irrespective of anything else, it usually wins.

History says with Loeb it does, a non Loeb Citroen rarely wins.

Ogier the only exception, rally is very driver dependent.

Also Loeb most impressive year imo was when Citroen pulled out and he was driving the pseudo Factory Kronos Citroen Xsara in 2006.

 

[Legro]

History says with Loeb it does, a non Loeb Citroen rarely wins.

Citroën hasn't exactly developed many modern top level rally cars that weren't driven by Loeb at some point.

 

[mustafur]

Citroën hasn't exactly developed many modern top level rally cars that weren't driven by Loeb at some point.

That's true but the team mates have generally Struggled.

I would put that down to the driver through.

 

[Legro]

That's true but the team mates have generally Struggled.

I wouldn't say that myself. From 2003 to 2012, excluding 2006 due to the lack of full team from Citroën, there has been more than one Citroën in the championship top 3, 6 out of 8 times.

 

[mustafur]

I wouldn't say that myself. From 2003 to 2012, excluding 2006 due to the lack of full team from Citroën, there has been more than one Citroën in the championship top 3, 6 out of 8 times.

But only Twice has a Team mate been reasonably close to the top points wise.

Both of those drivers themselves have won Championships(Sainz and Ogier) the point is it's still very driver Based this series unless you have top talent your still going to be away from the title.

Imo if Ogier was in last year's Citroen he would still win the title, even though the VW is a better car.

 

[Legro]

But only Twice has a Team mate been reasonably close to the top points wise.

Being better than Loeb and not doing well in the championship are two different things.

The point is: Citroën WRC should be good if they have the budget to make a good car.

 

[mustafur]

Being better than Loeb and not doing well in the championship are two different things.

The point is: Citroën WRC should be good if they have the budget to make a good car.

Never said they where better just saying if they are not close to Loeb as a driver or any top talent at the time they are not going to win a title purely off their car atleast with how the Talent gap is now.

 

[boiltheocean]

What evidence do you have of any of this? The 2017 rules are perhaps the most significant overhaul of the regulations since the introduction of World Rally Cars in the first place. There's no way to predict who will have the better car. Your entire hypothesis seems to hinge on the assumption that if Loeb wants to return, it will be with Citroën before anyone else.

I've already covered Toyotas situation in my previous post. The project has too many cooks and when they should have had an advantage over everyone else, they're now behind schedule for 2017. They lack the organisational experience and general knowledge of the modern WRC calendar too.

Hyundai have spent much of their time working on a car that's relevant for a year. Sure some of it will carry forward but they're on the back foot compared to Citroen and VW in terms of development for the 2017 car. They do however have a strong 2016 car which sort of leads into VWs problems.

Volkswagen we know have been testing the 2017 for quite a while now. It'll be really, really good I'm sure but they've still got to keep some of the team back to continue working on the 2016 car so they can win the championship again. Ideally they'd like to have halted development altogether on the 2016 car but Hyundai have come along with a brand new challenge at the most inconvenient time possible.

M-Sport apparently don't have the budget to finish this season so I won't go any further with this.

Citroen only have to focus on making the new car. They don't have to worry about the championship, they don't have to worry about who will drive the car, they don't need to worry about the rallies themselves restructuring, they don't even need to send team members to rounds which they contest as PH Sport are more than capable of preparing and running a car for the weekend. They've even cancelled the WTCC program to focus absolutely everything they have on this 2017-spec car.

I don't believe the Citroen will be good because Loeb might return to them, frankly I don't care if Loeb returns or not. I believe the Citroen will be good because they're in the strongest position leading into these new regulations and they've got plenty of talent behind the wheel as it is with Meeke, Lefebvre and Breen.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

M-Sport apparently don't have the budget to finish this season so I won't go any further with this.

They have since confirmed that they do.

Citroen only have to focus on making the new car. They don't have to worry about the championship, they don't have to worry about who will drive the car, they don't need to worry about the rallies themselves restructuring, they don't even need to send team members to rounds which they contest as PH Sport are more than capable of preparing and running a car for the weekend. They've even cancelled the WTCC program to focus absolutely everything they have on this 2017-spec car.

None of which guarantees a quality car. Your expectation that they will be competitive seems to be based on their previous performances, which are not as representative as you make them out to be because it doesn't take into account the overhaul in the regulations.

It'll be really, really good I'm sure but they've still got to keep some of the team back to continue working on the 2016 car so they can win the championship again.

You could count the number of mechanical failures the car had in 2015 on one hand. The Polo R has reached the peak of the development cycle; there is very little that they can extract (or need to) this year.

Hyundai have spent much of their time working on a car that's relevant for a year.

It's expected that quite a bit of the i20 - maybe even more than any other car - can be pushed forwards to the 2017 car.

Your entire hypothesis is based on "Citroën will be good in the past, so they will be good in the future", and is supported by nothing more than speculation and subjective opinions.

 

[trustjab]

What makes you think the relationship has soured? Apart from expressing "surprise" in an interview about him being dropped he's not hinted at a move elsewhere. He probably knew, maybe even asked to be dropped from WTCC so he could go do Dakar. He'd been testing the 2008DKR since half way through the 2015 WTCC season.

Not only that but it's clear SLR has entered into a junior driver development programme with Citroen. First announcing Terry Folb for a full season of J-WRC in December and just a few days ago, Quentin Giordano in a partial WRC2 programme. Both those drivers have strong links with the manufacturer.

Finally consider the mess the Toyota programme is in development wise. Two years, if not more they developed that car before bringing in Makinen, who proceeded to say he'd redo the whole thing from his shed. Meeke had the offer when his career with Citroen was on a knife-edge and he still turned them down.

Loeb will want to win if he returns and Citroen will give him a seat and the best car in the field if he wants it in 2017.

There is no falling out of Toyota's wrc program with TMG. Makinen confirmed during their press conference they would use TMG but not as a base of operations. It was two days ago, so maybe you missed it? The rest is assumptions probably based on the shoddy journalism around this project.