Zeta News 2.0: New VF Commodore and Chevrolet SS

[nd 4 holden spd]

So the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Corvette, Viper aren't all muscle cars? I think they are, a pony car is still a muscle car.

 

[Philly]

Eh. It depends on how you view a muscle car. I tend to view the more established names as not muscle cars (Camaro, Mustang, Challenger is built to compete here). Of course there are versions of those (from the past) I would call a muscle car. They are, but they aren't IMO. The Corvette and Viper are sports/track cars, and the Charger is one of the only dedicated muscle cars in SRT trim.

 

[YSSMAN]

Look at the E63. It gets 500 horsepower from it's big V8 compared to maybe 350 from a Chevy 6.4L while also getting 20 mpg, probably more than double the chevy.

Eeeeeeerrrrrr....

1) The 6.2L AMG V8 costs nearly three times as much to the consumer when brought to market
2) The 6.2L AMG V8 is larger in most dimensions, and consequently, is heavier as well
3) The 6.2L AMG V8, when matched to the 7GTRONIC Automatic is likely no more fuel efficent than the similarly powered LS7 matched to a 6L80E. Furthermore, the LS7 has already been adapted to run on E85 fuel under some circumstances, which to my knowledge, is something that the AMG V8 cannot do.

The small-block arguement still stands; They are completely relevant when compared to the worlds best, delivering similar performance and often times better fuel economy (when geared correctly) at a much lower price.

===

So the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Corvette, Viper aren't all muscle cars?

A pony car is generally defined as a small coupe powered by a V8 with a greater bias towards handling than outright straight line performance. The Mustang obviously is the basis of this segment, giving its name to it, and consequently cars like the Camaro/Firebird, Challenger/'Cuda, and Javelin/AMX soon followed here in the US.

The muscle car is roughly a step upward in size, then a mid size car usually with the largest V8 you could stuff in it. Handling was not the primary concern, and consequently, there were some pretty radical street monsters out there. Cars like the GTO/Chevelle/Cutlass/GS faced off against the Torino/Cyclone, Charger/Roadrunner... Then it grew outward and upward with legends like the Impala SS, Chrysler 300-series cars, Galaxie 500s and whatnot.

The current cars, the way I can see it, are as follows:

- Pony Cars:
Ford Mustang
Chevrolet Camaro

- Muscle Cars:
Holden Commodore/Pontiac G8
Ford Falcon
Dodge Charger/Challenger (due mostly to weight), Chrysler 300C

- Sports Cars (never have been, never will be muscle cars)
Chevrolet Corvette
Dodge Viper

 

[Joey D]

But thats just it, muscle cars will inevitably one day die. If we put a 4 pot in now then we are killing muscle cars already. Plus the whole term "muscle" means a big and muscular engine in a big and tough car. My Mum drives a 4 pot, I want a V6 or V8 please.

You can have just as much of a muscle car with a smaller engine as you can with a large, inefficient V8.

Speed is only half of the equasion for me. Noise, sorry but an I4 will NEVER sound as good as a V8 in any trim. Hell, even V6's sound better than 90% of the I4's out there.

The only V8's that sound good are the ones from Europe, an Aston Martin will always sound better then a Camaro. However, I'll take the sound of a turbo I4 any day over the low rumble of a stupidly over sized V8, especially if it has a nice exhaust. The older Mini Cooper S and Neon SRT-4 were awesome when you let off the throttle because of the gurggle and popping noises they made.

Why can't there be the one car that is left for the people who don't want an I4? If you want an I4 there are plenty of great cars out there with one. Its simple really. If you want to spend $$$ on gas but have fun doing it more power to you. If you want to be economical and have fun in a different way that's ok to. I still find it insulting for a musclecar to have a tiny engine--that's the 180º opposite of what the musclecar actually means.

There would be, they would call it the Camaro SS and it would probably have a 6.0L V8 in it or something. Just because you offer a car with a smaller motor doesn't rule out the possibility that there will be a larger alternative. Look at the Charger, you can get it with a 2.7L, 3.5L, 5.7L or 6.1L engine...something for everyone.

Muscle cars aren't being insulted by putting a smaller displace engine in it. They are showing that they can actually stick around longer in a world where fuel prices continue to climb.

 

[YSSMAN]

The only V8's that sound good are the ones from Europe, an Aston Martin will always sound better then a Camaro. However, I'll take the sound of a turbo I4 any day over the low rumble of a stupidly over sized V8, especially if it has a nice exhaust.

What the hell is wrong with you? I think you need a time-out...

Look at the Charger, you can get it with a 2.7L, 3.5L, 5.7L or 6.1L engine...something for everyone.

I believe the 3.5L is the smallest engine offering as of now.

 

[JCE]

True. My friend's Shelby GT500 Mustang sounded far better than my little 2.0T. But in reality, who is going to complain about a good sounding four-banger? I know my car can't hold a candle to any V8 out there, but by itself, I think it sounds great. Just because it doesn't sounds perfect doesn't mean it can't still be music to your ears.

Don't get me wrong, I love I4 engines--just not in musclecars. The Honda H22A is my favorite 4cyl engine noise ever. I just love the nastiness it had when the VTEC cam switched to power mode. Truely an epic noise from an I4.

 

[Joey D]

What the hell is wrong with you? I think you need a time-out...

I just don't think they sound good.

 

[JCE]

I just don't think they sound good.

And we think you need a labotomy.

 

[Joey D]

Why? Having a sound like someone's hungry stomach just sounds awful. Seriously is seems most of those "muscle" cars just have the exhaust to make them sound faster then they actually are. This is why I dislike all things to do with them. Sure muscle cars were cool back in the 70's but times have changed, there is no reason for engines not to be small, high powered and efficient.

 

[Omnis]

German V8, but V8 anyway.

 

[JCE]

I love Merc V8's. They just sound throaty and mean without the burble.

 

[Jay]

Why? Having a sound like someone's hungry stomach just sounds awful. Seriously is seems most of those "muscle" cars just have the exhaust to make them sound faster then they actually are. This is why I dislike all things to do with them. Sure muscle cars were cool back in the 70's but times have changed, there is no reason for engines not to be small, high powered and efficient.

I agree to an extent, I like the sound of genuine tuned V8's, but there are so many getting around with low perfomance V8's with a loud exhaust and the engines even sound lazy, like you said, so many just try and make them sound faster than they are.

 

[Tornado]

I'm torn. I recognize Joey's point about how the engines don't need to be big to get good power (hell, GM themselves have proven that with the 3.6 DIG V6). However, at the same time I think it is pretty obvious that muscle car buyers would want a V8 in them simply because it is "right," if you will. Another problem is with one of the things Joey contends:

The 2002 Camaro had a 200hp V6 which wasn't bad, I see no reason to say why a 260hp I4 would be worse.

Because there is a marked difference between the old 3800 V6 and the Ecotec Turbo. First of all, the 3800 was a long running engine with a long track record of bullet proof reliability, no matter what you did to it. As such, once could (and many did) extract V8 performance out of it for peanuts without worrying about it detonating, meaning you could possibly end up paying less for V8 power than if you bought a V8 (assuming one could get over not simply buying a V8). The Ecotec 4 is actually pretty much tuned to its limits in turbo guise (why do you think the aftermarket is so exclusively dedicated to engine swaps for the car).
Second of all, while no one will ever say that the 3800 was a smooth engine, it has one huge advantage the Ecotec: The Ecotec is an old school turbo engine. Its not a Beamer N54. Its laggy, its coarse, and it has bad throttle response. You try to put that in a Camaro (or any muscle car) and not offer an engine that doesn't counterpoint these huge flaws, and people will riot.

That being said, the main point of contention is largely meaningless. If Chevy sells it with a turbo 4, people probably won't buy it (nevermind a crappy turbo 4). Regardless of any conjecture, harmonic opinions or efficiency babble, the fact of the matter is that you will still have a car that (intentionally) reminds people of this American icon:

With this similarly historic badge:

And an engine that looks like this:

Be as morally outraged as you like, but people will still choose the V8 models every time. Disagreeing with the big engine philosophy is fine, but calling for there to not be big engines simply because they are not necessary just means you are naive, as I am pretty sure people would just stop buying Camaro's altogether rather than buy straight-4 Camaros in meaningful numbers.

 

[YSSMAN]

Looks like they're gonna do it with the G8 too:

It's no secret that automakers' lineups will have to change over the next several years — thanks to stricter CAFE standards — but it may be surprising to find out just how much those regulations will change the face of the automobile.

Perhaps the biggest indication to how much the automobile will change as we approach the 2020 CAFE deadline will be the Pontiac G8. Pontiac's newest sports sedan has been on the market for less than a month, but it's already considered a modern muscle car — thanks to the availability of a V8 engine. But just as Brian Shipman, Product Manager of the G8, told Leftlane, the requirements for a muscle car are changing.

Shipman indicated that future G8s could be powered by a four-cylinder engine and Bob Lutz, General Motors vice chairman, also indicated that this could be the case. "It's possible that the G8 could be powered by a 1.6L engine without a sacrifice in performance," Lutz said. "That engine could get the G8's mileage into the 30 to 31 mpg range."

Lutz also said that GM is preparing to launch a version of the Buick Park Avenue — essentially a long-wheelbase version of the G8 — in China with the turbo 260 horsepower 2.0L unit from the Saturn Sky Redline and Pontiac Solstice GXP. The move is due to China's graduated taxation — which drastically increases on engines larger than 2.0L — but despite the engine being in a car that is "seemingly way to big," Lutz says the engine "felt just great."

But don't look for the G8 to switch to a turbocharged four-cylinder engine until the next-generation of automatic transmissions arrives. Because of the engines decreased displacement, more than six gears will be need to keep the engine in its powerband — meaning an eight or nine-speed transmission could be in GM's future.

Not a huge surprise, really, at all. I mean, I'm a bit shocked that they'd talk about using the 1.6L Turbo (which definitely means its coming here), but still, it seems like a halfway decent idea if the performance is still the same.

But then I get to thinking: Why aren't they going to diesel power again?

*sigh*

Well, we're taking steps. Thats good.

 

[TopHat]

I'll accept the I4 as long as I can still get one that sounds like this.

 

[Onikaze]

Gawd I wish they made V-8's that sounded good...

Oh wai-

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

To me a muscle car is just about any car with muscular styling and a muscular V8 engine (typical V8 roar, and typically loads of torque). I love that Vette sound in the vid just above

A 9spd auto would be interesting, would that be a world first?

 

[YSSMAN]

GM already trademarked an "8SPEED" logo last year, so thought process is that it will be an eight speed automatic that will go in some of the higher-end cars while the six-speed units begin to proliferate everywhere else (as we're already seeing that happen). I doubt the eight-speed would be required for proper turbo performance on the G8, but we'd have to wait and see what the Chinese Park Avenue would do first.

 

[Joey D]

An eight speed would be great, it would help out with fuel economy as well. If there is one thing GM does well it's design transmissions....except on the Blazer but I won't fault them to much for that.

 

[YSSMAN]

If BMW likes to buy them (crap, I spilled the beans again!), there must be something good about them. Oh, and Ford wanting to co-develop transmissions as well... That was a HUGE deal a few years back...

If there is anyone I trust to do it (other than ZF), its GM. My guess is that the first of them will debut on the STS/DTS replacement in the next year or two, otherwise, its all going to be about the six-speed units going into damn near everything.

If I was the head of GM Transmission, I'd be trying to develop a cheap and affordable setup for the small FWD cars. Thats where the technology is needed more than anything right now...

 

[JCE]

I'm torn. I recognize Joey's point about how the engines don't need to be big to get good power (hell, GM themselves have proven that with the 3.6 DIG V6). However, at the same time I think it is pretty obvious that muscle car buyers would want a V8 in them simply because it is "right," if you will. Another problem is with one of the things Joey contends:
Because there is a marked difference between the old 3800 V6 and the Ecotec Turbo. First of all, the 3800 was a long running engine with a long track record of bullet proof reliability, no matter what you did to it. As such, once could (and many did) extract V8 performance out of it for peanuts without worrying about it detonating, meaning you could possibly end up paying less for V8 power than if you bought a V8 (assuming one could get over not simply buying a V8). The Ecotec 4 is actually pretty much tuned to its limits in turbo guise (why do you think the aftermarket is so exclusively dedicated to engine swaps for the car).
Second of all, while no one will ever say that the 3800 was a smooth engine, it has one huge advantage the Ecotec: The Ecotec is an old school turbo engine. Its not a Beamer N54. Its laggy, its coarse, and it has bad throttle response. You try to put that in a Camaro (or any muscle car) and not offer an engine that doesn't counterpoint these huge flaws, and people will riot.

That being said, the main point of contention is largely meaningless. If Chevy sells it with a turbo 4, people probably won't buy it (nevermind a crappy turbo 4). Regardless of any conjecture, harmonic opinions or efficiency babble, the fact of the matter is that you will still have a car that (intentionally) reminds people of this American icon:

With this similarly historic badge:

And an engine that looks like this:

Be as morally outraged as you like, but people will still choose the V8 models every time. Disagreeing with the big engine philosophy is fine, but calling for there to not be big engines simply because they are not necessary just means you are naive, as I am pretty sure people would just stop buying Camaro's altogether rather than buy straight-4 Camaros in meaningful numbers.

I almost teared when reading that. Perfect post.

I'll accept the I4 as long as I can still get one that sounds like this.

Or....maybe THIS?!

Gawd I wish they made V-8's that sounded good...

Oh wai-

Don't forget this:

 

[Venari]

Or this:



[/juvenile_exhaust_note_excitement]

 

[JCE]

Or this:



[/juvenile_exhaust_note_excitement]

Touche, touche...

I wish my car was as restored as yours. Give me till Jan 1st 2009 and it should be.

 

[Joey D]

Looks like GM won't be screwing up a muscle car because they aren't going to market it as one.

Mark LaNeve: Camaro won't be positioned as a muscle car
The hits just keep on coming for fans of the Chevy Camaro. Just yesterday, we quoted Bob Lutz as suggesting that the Camaro could get a four-cylinder engine option. Now we hear that Mark LaNeve, VP of sales and marketing for GM North America, says that, "We won't position it as a muscle car," speaking again of the 2010 Camaro. Sure, you could spend hours debating the terms "muscle car" and "pony car", but we're pretty sure that very few ever thought of the Camaro as a fuel-efficient option. But, that's exactly how GM will position it. "The mainstream positioning will be fuel economy, design and a V-6," says LaNeve.

The truth seems to be that GM just cannot afford to sell a couple hundred thousand Camaros a year with V8 engines rated at around 20 miles per gallon combined. But, before V8-lovers get too upset, remember that it is the fuel efficient engine options which make the fire-breathing V8 an option at all. Without mainstream options like either a direct-injected V6 or even a small turbocharged 4, there is simply no way that Chevrolet could ever reintroduce the Camaro at all.

I think the last statement puts it perfectly, without smaller engines to off set the larger one, there would be no return of the Camaro.

 

[JCE]

I still call bull**** on GM.

 

[Joey D]

Wait? You are saying GM is wrong about their own car?

 

[JCE]

Wait? You are saying GM is wrong about their own car?

What I mean is I think that its bull**** that they are trying to classify the Camaro a non-musclecar (or ponycar if you will) when it clearly is.

Look, you seem to be on a crusade here so this is my final post on this issue. Its a never-ending battle discussing this topic.

 

[Joey D]

No, it's not a muscle car any longer. It used to be a muscle car but now with the price of fuel, CAFE regulations, and environmental concerns it just can't be. If GM is not going to market it as a muscle car then I don't see what the issue is.

It's the the Charger, there is no way that it is a muscle car like it was back in the day, it's more of a sports sedan now if anything. Things change over time. It's not a crusade, it's merely stating that I agree with what GM's doing with the Camaro. They are being smart and it will pay of for them I believe.

 

[YSSMAN]

Here is the thing:

THE CAMARO NEVER WAS, NOR WILL EVER BE, A MUSCLE CAR. PERIOD.

This is probably the best thing that they can do given the CAFE standards coming through. People complain and complain about not having a Camaro, then they give us one, then its "too retro," and then they're worried about power so they add more of it, then we complain about gasoline prices and raise economy standards... And now we're just upset that they've made an I4 alternative thats more-powerful (and probably faster) than the old V6 version?

...please...

Quite your bellyaching and just get in line like everyone else and order the V8 option. Even if they only sell 1000 of the turbo I4 model, it still adds to their CAFE standards, and thats all that matters.

 

[Tornado]

Wait? You are saying GM is wrong about their own car?

The Saturn VUE is an SUV, not a crossover.



Seriously, this is a pretty petty thing to bitch over, considering everyone and their mother will know it to be a muscle car the second it breaks cover (Pony car is a type of muscle car, thank you very much). Cheverolet can position it as a damned 3 series competitor for all anyone cares, because people will still buy it as a muscle car. It should be plainly obvious to everyone (though only YSSMAN seems to understand) that GM is not going to sell it as a muscle car simply to keep hybrid driving yuppies off their back. Its not like anyone who would buy one won't see through the charade, or how anyone who wouldn't would be swayed by any market position GM claimed it was in.