Bioshock Infinite

A few hours in and I must say, this game so far is........creepy/odd/trippy and most importantly great! Some very creative and/or high people designed this games atmosphere, characters and animations, thumbs up. I am not that far but I have been searching every nook for items, normally games that offer looting tend to get boring but this one seems just right.

I changed my controls to Marksman and it plays much better IMO, if you want that familiar FPS control, use it.
 
I just finished it:
The ending is an absolute screw-with-your head deal, and I'm still trying to digest it.
 
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Surprised you picked it up, prisonermonkeys. I didn't think you would after saying this:

I don't like games where the player is encouraged to commit acts of violence. Shooting people who are shooting back at you is fine - but using the hook device to rip someone's throat out or tear into their eyes is not.
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It is a rather brutal game if you use the melee attacks. What were your impressions on the blood and gore. I didn't find them to be in horrible taste. In fact, it seemed to have taken a back seat to the gorgeous world they gifted us with. Which I was rather happy it isn't slammed in our face at every turn.
 
I don't use the melee attacks too much.

I also got the feeling that the violence and gore is not violence or gore for the sake of it. Rather, the story treats them as a way of showing that there are actual stakes to play for. When you witness the first gory execution, it really drives home the point that something is seriously wrong in the city.
 
That's an astute way to look at it. As there is something wrong with this city. I think that the best part of the Bioshock series for me. It has a knack for really making one feel connected to the story line. Although, a great game, I am rather glad I rented it. I don't see a whole of re-play value. But, I could be wrong, as I haven't finished it yet.
 
Well, I've found that most shooters tend to put the player in a position where it's a case of "clear this room of bad guys to move on to the next room full of bad guys (or action set-piece)". And you're hardly given a reason for shooting them all, either - they're usually typecast as what I like to call easy evil: their characterisation is limited to a single word or two that tells you everything you need to know about them and why they need to be killed (ie, "they're terrorists").

I've noticed that BioShock, on the other hand, is very deliberate in the way it presents its villains, even the ones that would be treated as cannon fodder in other games. Take the first fight you get drawn into, for instance:
You arrive at the raffle, where you pick the winning number - and your prize is to throw a ball at an interracial couple whose only "crime" is to have started a relationship. That's already reprehensible enough, but you're given a choice of going along with it and throwing it at them, or defying them and throwing it at Jeremiah Fink. Even if you do the honourable thing and target Fink, it makes no difference; you're revealed to be the False Shepherd, and the police attack you, trying to commit you to summary execution (ie, to be killed on the spot). You then have to fight off the police force, something that would be unthinkable in the modern world. But you don't have time to think about it, because you need to get to Elizabeth - who you plan on using to clear your debts, which itself is an unthinkable act.
The game doesn't use one of those stupid morality systems that only serves to give you an alternative ending based on what you do, but nothing more is thought of it (with the exception of the original BioShock). Instead, it takes a thematic approach. The game understands that its audience is intelligent and wants some greater reward than watching an action set-piece. The way I see it, the game's major themes go like this:
  • What it means to fight for a cause
  • What it means to be willing to die for that cause
  • What it means for you if your cause dies despite your efforts
The violence and the gore is used to reinforce the idea that there are actual stakes involved. Even if you get revived upon death in-game, to fail in your task will have actual consequences for the world within the game.
 
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I have nothing to add or take away from your thoughts on the game, prisonermonkeys. I believe you hit the nail on the head.

My only wish is that more game developers follow suit. Take Tomb Raider (2013), which in it's own right, a pretty good game. But once I'd put it down, that was it. Bioshock has definitely enveloped me. I've had to pause once or twice, because I was to much into the story. I can't stop playing either. I don't think stopping the crusade, as it were, would do the story any justice. I'm compelled to finish it and kill the baddy.
 
Okay, the ending of the game is quite complex, and deals with some philosophical themes that may be a little hard to understand without a little help. So what I'm going to do is explain the ending here, with spoiler tags. This is as much for my benefit as it is for yours - as you'll see, there is a lot going on, and it helps me understand it better if I explain. Be aware that, if you read on, you are going to encounter major spoilers for the game:
The key phrase in the game is "Give us the girl, and wipe away the debt". The girl in question is Elizabeth - Booker's child. Booker sold her as a baby to clear away his own debts, and despite attempting to retrieve her, he ultimately failed. Everything that has happened since is a product of his efforts to deal with his guilt, and the game explores the way he reconciles his own guilt.

Columbia is presented as an idyllic, utopian society. It represents the version of events that Booker created for himself in which he was the hero, not the villain. However, Columbia is fraught with problems, like racism and a totalitarian theology, and these represent the actual version of events. Every time the Founders in Columbia suppress the minority groups, it is Booker suppressing his own memories for the sake of maintaining the illusion. When the Vox Populi rise up, it is Booker's latent memories fighting against the reality that he has created. Both Zachary Comstock and Daisy Fitzroy are presented as being equally bad as each other. This is because he cannot live with the knowledge of what he did (Daisy), but he cannot maintain the lie he has told himself (Comstock). The war between the two represents the way Booker's original and fabricated memories are fighting for control within him.

This conflict has created a situation where reality is trying to correct itself. The natural order of things must exist as it was always intended to, but since Booker is too busy fighting within himself, reality is trying to correct itself the only way that it can: by creating multiple alternate versions of itself, each one spinning out in ways that could have been, but none of which are perfect and all of which are unsustainable. To this end, Elizabeth has been dropped into everything: her ability to manipulate the folds of reality is intended as a tool for Booker to use to restore order. Hence, it does whatever Elizabeth and Booker need it to do, whenever they need to do it. By moving between realities, they collapse an unsustainable reality back into the original timeline. When they move into the reality in which Chen Lin never died, Booker's original memories are brought forward, and are allowed to stand up to the fabricated version of events. However, doing so creates more and more anomalies, like when Lady Comstock's spirit attacks.

When Booker has his vision of the older Elizabeth laying waste to New York, it shows his ultimate fate if he allows his delusion to continue. The conflicting realities will continue to multiply and multiply until they can no longer be contained, and will violently collapse in on one another. This represents Booker's ultimate self-destruction, when his denial finally wins over his acceptance, and he continues to blame the world around him for what he did.

All of this can be averted, and is. It is Booker, not Elizabeth, who destroys "the Syphon", the physical manifestation of the anchor of his delusion. By destroying it, he cuts his delusion loose, which allows him to move to the place where he can finally accept what he did. This is what Elizabeth means when she says that every choice leads to the same place: the moment when Booker rejected his chance at redemption, because he was too selfish to believe that he could simply let go of his guilt. When the ensemble of Elizabeths gather, they represent each of the realities coming together, and the natural order being restored. Comstock, the villain Booker created to externalise his guilt in selling his child, is finally destroyed when Booker is drowned in the river. When we see the lone Elizabeth standing on the river bank, with the door back to reality in front of her, it is a symbol that the world now exists in a state of balance.

This naturally begs the question of whether Booker is alive or dead at the end of the game. The idea of redeption and salvation is frequently presented as a literal rebirth: in being baptised, the man that was, dies, and the man that will be is born. He has the same name, and the same face, but he is not considered to be the same man. Considering that everything that takes place in the game takes place in Booker's mind, we could reasonably come to the consluion that Booker does not die. By reconciling his memories and allowing the natural order of things to emerge, he essentially "wakes up". The delusion is destroyed, and Booker can continue living his life. He will never meet Elizabeth, but he will be able to go on. Of course, he "rebirth", as it were, is arguably so traumatic that he may not have survived it. But the important part is that he was able to reconcile his memories before he died.

Personally, I believe that the events of the game actually did happen. Booker went to Columbia as someone looking for redemption. When he was baptised the first time, he went through his ordeals. When he drowns at the end of the game, he awakens in Columbia the way he awakens in the garden. I believe that this is the case because depite being cast as the villain, Comstock's power in the delusion rests in one thing Booker wants: redemption. It seems odd then, that he should be the villain, trying to suppress everything that he can bring out in Booker. Therefore, there must be some truth to one side of him and Columbia, and since he is established as a villain Booker created, and as a villain he suppresses, the forgiveness element must exist in reality. Therefore, if Booker survives the purging of his memories, he awakens in Columbia - the one place that he can exist, because it is outside the world he has abandoned.
 
I haven't read the spoiler yet. But I just heard CCR in game.
 
What do you mean by "CCR"? Where are you up to in the game?

Ken Koios
My only wish is that more game developers follow suit. Take Tomb Raider (2013), which in it's own right, a pretty good game. But once I'd put it down, that was it.
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I was actually fairly engrossed in Tomb Raider. I definately want to go back to Yamatai, and soon. I plan on doing a play-through with no upgrades or skill points. Though I would have changed a few plot details if I was the one writing it:
I would have Sam as the villain, not Mathias. Mathias would have been a means to an end - to prove that Sam was Himiko's heir, and nothing more. At that point, Sam would kill him, and reveal that she and her family had agreed to fund Lara's expedition to find Yamatai so that she could assume Himiko's throne and rule the world. Lara would work out that the Asencion ritual did not mean simply inheriting Himiko's power, but would instead mean transferring Himiko's soul into Sam's body, and that Sam's soul would be burned as the fuel for the transaction. Lara would use this to convince Sam to back off during the climax.

Parallel to this, I'd have Whitman as the same desperate former celebrity, but instead of having him betray Lara and incompetently lust after glory, he'd be more of a heroic character, earning the Solarii's trust to figure out their plans. The story would be written in such a way that the player believes Whitman is a villain, when he is really a good guy who simply fell on hard time and got blinded by the promise of fame.
 
CCR = Creedence Clearwater Revival. I am up the "gun-smith" part, without giving to much away.

As far as Tomb Raider. GOTY potential. But it wouldn't win my vote, if I had one. It was a great game. It just lacked a certain something. Don't get me wrong, it was the best Tomb Raider, imho. However, it just doesn't run away with the award. It was somehow anchored by it's predecessors. It stood out, but not enough. But that's just humble view. It does deserve a sequel, and I'll be one of the first in line to play it. For what it's worth.

As far as it is now. Bioshock would get my imagery vote. It leapt far enough away from the series, without forgetting were it came from. It has a very unique story line. It has enough to stand out.

But, thank the Lords, we still have a long year filled with impressive looking games. (Last of Us anybody?)

As far as the your ideas. I feel a some of the ideologies you present will be addressed in the sequel. It's is a video game, and lord knows, we could very well just be looking at the first part of a grander story arc.
 
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The beauty of Tomb Raider's story is that it ties itself off by the end of the game. I hate it when films and games leave key plot threads hanging, in the assumption that a sequel will be made. There are, however, a few avenues that a Tomb Raider sequel could explore, but you have to go out of your way and collect all of the GPS caches to find out.

Anyway, back to BioShock. I know exactly where you're up to - though I don't recall hearing Creedence - and all I can say is that you should hold on tight.
 
Tomb Raider doesn't lead itself into a sequel. But remember, we do live in age that believes money comes from cows. Tomb Raider was met with high ratings and good sales. To think that cash cow would be left on a shelf would be nothing less than naive. I except a sequel soonish just based on that fact alone. Can't let the story grow cold in the pockets books, after all. Therefore, the story should not be locked up yet.

Back to Bioshock. CCR showed up in a "window" just outside the gun smith's building the first time you are in the area. I am also presuming, after your lengthy description, that the end is nothing less than a roller coaster. If you need to write at that length to help yourself understand, well, boy howdy for the rest of us.

EDIT: In addition. For all the beautiful game play, scenery, and awesome story line. I am rather surprised by the overall length of the game. Thought it was going to be a few hours and done. It's 4am here. Just marveled.
 
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Yeah, I kept expecting the end of the game to be nearby on several occasions, but it just kept going. And it didn't overstay its welcome, either; it never felt like an unnecessary convolution of the plot.
 
5am, and my brain is slowly melting. I'm confused.
 
There is an explanation for everything.

But you should probably get some sleep. You're about to enter a stage of the narrative that is very important to the overall picture. If you don't understand what you're going through now, you're probably going to struggle even more in about half an hour.
 
Only had a chance to play for about an hour but the scenery and gameplay is very immersive and innovative so far. Cant wait to dive deep into this game over the next week and weekend.
 
Ken Koios
Tomb Raider doesn't lead itself into a sequel. But remember, we do live in age that believes money comes from cows. Tomb Raider was met with high ratings and good sales. To think that cash cow would be left on a shelf would be nothing less than naive. I except a sequel soonish just based on that fact alone. Can't let the story grow cold in the pockets books, after all. Therefore, the story should not be locked up yet.
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True. No need to leave things open-ended to do another game though. They never needed that back in the old days. They simply made a new game around the same stuff and called it "2". It's the marketing machines that believe consumers need to be held with eager anticipation of what will happen next that dictate open endings leading to another game.

They overthink things if you ask me.
 
Alltidxx
True. No need to leave things open-ended to do another game though. They never needed that back in the old days. They simply made a new game around the same stuff and called it "2". It's the marketing machines that believe consumers need to be held with eager anticipation of what will happen next that dictate open endings leading to another game.

They overthink things if you ask me.
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Completely agree. It's a sad time we live in as consumers. We are lambs willing being led to slaughter. As the masses feed into the marketing's ploy every single time.

More on topic: About to finally pick up the game after a busy day. Hoping to finish it tonight. Then, going to re-play the original, since it's on-disc. Then maybe re-play Infinite. Then return it. :ouch:
 
Still haven't finished. I've been on my kid's school board election committee. But I did get awesome news. I rented Infinite from Redbox. Bioshock I came on disc. Didn't realize it needed to install on HD. Renting Infinite and having the original to keep is pretty awesome.
 
Do I need to have played previous bioshocks to understand this? It looks awesome but the previous ones never appealed to me.
 
No you don't have to play Bioshock 1 or 2.

I didn't and now I'm polishing mine
PlatinumTrophy.png
Trophy, when it's all done then i will go to Rapture city
 
MildAshers
Do I need to have played previous bioshocks to understand this? It looks awesome but the previous ones never appealed to me.
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No, you don't need to have played it. The first two games are only referenced tangentially, and even then, they are done so in such a way that those references are plauisbly isolated within the world of Infinite.
 
I'm finding very frustrating to push L3 button in order to run, 1999 mode would be much easier if run button would be X
 
Looking back over this thread, I'm really rather disappointed that some of the scenes used in the trailers - most notably the one where Elizabeth has been captured and is about to be hung - appear to have been cut from the game. Or have I missed something?
 
Game is great but I didn't like the ending. Luckily this will not discourage me from playing it on 1999 mode for Scavenger Hunt Trophy.

Few small things i don't like is that, enemies almost always shoot first, i loose some health before i can track where is shooting coming from. That forced me too change my gaming style, instead for charging ahead on open spaces ill slowly moving forward looking closely for enemies Also enemies blend easily with background. So looking for them especially with sniper rifle some time is just pain it the neck. And the running button could be X button, that would help a lot, with siren fight and during battles with Handyman.

Overall Game score is 9/10
 
prisonermonkeys
Looking back over this thread, I'm really rather disappointed that some of the scenes used in the trailers - most notably the one where Elizabeth has been captured and is about to be hung - appear to have been cut from the game. Or have I missed something?
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There's tons of choices you can make through out the game, I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen as a result of you simply taking a different path than before.

Or it could be DLC as well.

After finishing this I'm really looking forward to finding out more about the main character(s) through the DLC. They certainly won't have a shortage of lighthouses to put us through.

But wow, such an amazing experience of a story. I loved every single bit of it.

Everything's just so rich with feeling and depth. Like every little thing has a great story of its own. The immersion factor in this game is insane, they did such a great great job with that.

I haven't played a game with such a crazy multi-faceted story layout since Metal Gear 5, but this one does a much better job of tying things up tighter for the end.

I loved the "ending" personally. But people that are disappointed seem to forget what transpired just moments prior to the part right before the credits. It can be taken as anti-climatic in a shallow sense, but just remember, it may not be what you think.

The tip I would give to everyone playing through this is to take their time and fully explore the entire world at every level and do the bonus missions, so much awesome stuff happens (loved the guitar scene).

Although it seems like a pretty linear design during most parts, the game allows you to go off and discover much more of the world if you want to, and it sure is worth it. So, again, take your time, soak in the world and the atmosphere. I loved the way A... Elizabeth would idle around, look at things, emote, sit down whenever she could, points things out, etc. It was a lot more engaging than any other AI partner I've ever seen in a game. The facial animation in the game was just spot on, it brought about this sincerity in me, watching Elizabeth react to certain things and empathize with Booker was just an awesome thing to experience, loved every minute of reading those moods and intricacies.

But yeah, I could probably go on for pages about how positive I am about Bioshock Inifinite but for now I'm just gonna go off and break my self-imposed embargo on reviews and discussion surrounding the game. Really interested in what types of theories are out there.

Now for a quick little spoiler text segment with an observation I had:
IT WAS YOUR DAUGHTER THE WHOLE TIME MAN W-T-F I DEVELOPED FEELINGS - SO WRONG. xD

Anyway. Yeah, I can't believe, besides the obvious differences in setting, how similar this entire game was to Borderlands 2.

Siren prison girls with crazy powers, a crazed controlling father who's taken over the whole world pretty much (or major break away society at least) trying to use them, even gameplay things like the vending machines, some of the RPG elements, the freaking songbird even, wow! I mean, 2K games publishes both games but damn, lots of similarities going beyond just light inspiration. The more I think about the two, the more I find them sharing.

Anyway, great game! The story does a great job of showing you that once you make a mistake you will find it impossible to live it down, even after you've fixed it, because some part of you will always continue to live on in the alternate, worst case scenario, universe. A quantum guilt, so to speak. I found the theme of multi-universes and quantum physics to be infinitely (HEY!) interesting and appropriate. I've always loved to just put my brain in knots thinking about such theories and mental exercises so this game really petted me into a purr from that sense.

I'm just having trouble trying to figure out the "wipe away the debt" part. What was he wiping away? Was it simply him just being so drunk and messed up, that he owed people money and needed to sell his baby, not necessarily owing a debt to himself (Comstock)?

And why does Elizabeth have powers anyway? Yes, it's probably doing a dis-service to the story trying to get to the reason for that, but still...

The story was a grand way of showcasing how one has to deal with trauma. In an epic way, Booker just needed all of this to conquer his demons and accept himself, that's when he can finally reach his own real Columbia.

I don't know, I need to think about this more later on after getting some rest, I'm all fuzzy now :).
 
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