God is not willing to let anyone go to hell but he gave us all free will we chose tomake a choice we choose to bleive or not. he didnt make us lemmings
Do your parents practice the same (or a similar) religion as you?
Could the existence of a God be proved by the elimination of all other theories?
From Evolution: Fact or Fiction
Sorry i hadn't researched who posted it before responding but I am happy to hear it was sarcasm.Indeed I was sarcastic about it, the impressive thing is that such statement is taking an impressive response, because while some people can identify it as sarcasm(maybe by checking previous posts in this thread), there is people who doesn't identify such thing as sarcasm which demonstrates that such claims and basis for choice are indeed handled like that by Christians.
The irony of this is that while I was sort of sarcastic about it, people tent to dismiss the sarcasm outright instead of analysing the basis of this idea which surrounds the whole "religion choice" in the west.
I believe in the Universe. I don't hug trees, or chant at the moon. I just believe in Science, and that we evolved from space dust and will return to space dust one day.
Something like this:
Space dust collides
Earth is formed (Big bang whatever you wish to call it)
Earth heats and cools over billions of years
Water emerges from the heating and cooling
Water= Life.
Sea life emerges
Amphibians
Mammals
Man
I believe we evolved much like a blade of grass evolves from a seed in my backyard. I believe religion has caused more pain and suffering on our beautiful planet, than any other single source.
Really? I haven´t seen any intelligent words on the existence of a god.
All i have read up until this point has been on the other end of the spectrum.
One is 100% christian
One believe we have free will but God can manipulate people´s thoughts so my life gets better for a moment.
One believe god is a bearded man, ....ok
And one has breaken free from religions but also go on spritiual evidence as to why god exist or he just don´t have some answers to fill in this empty space so God fits that one perfectly. Then of course there are these theories so it sounds like they actually have met god as they know he´s not running on time or some other crazy idea.
There has been NO intelligent discussions going on about gods.
There has been ALOT of intelligent debunking going on about gods though.
Earth is formed (Big bang whatever you wish to call it)
Joey DDiffering opinions != unintelligent.
You are letting your bias and preconceived notion get in the way and you are unable to see where the other side is coming from. There has been many excellent post for the existence of God, as well as many posts for the non-existence. I can even see where some of the atheist's are coming from even though I disagree with their opinion.
You'll never get anywhere in a debate if you assume the other side is a bunch of unintelligent idiots. The saying "play the ball, not the man" holds true here, discuss the opposing side's points not their intelligence level.
Also be tactful, it goes a long way.
This questioning of God is becoming more and more prevalent in our society, so discussing surrounding it is a good thing, I don't see why it should be stifled with meaningless banter.
And before you say anything, those who believe in God should be held to the same standards as well.
The Earth and the Big Bang have several billion years between them. The Big Bang started the universe, space dust more than likely started Earth.
FamineNo, and for several reasons.
The first is the existence of God isn't a theory - it's conjecture. Theories must have evidence and there cannot be evidence for a non-falsifiable concept.
The second is that there are an infinite number of other suppositions and theories - one man's God may be at odds with another man's Shiva. C.S. Lewis believed that all gods were the same (some of the later Narnia books are about precisely this - The Last Battle particularly), which neatly resolved that little problem, only it kinda failed to take into account the fact that it only really applies to monotheism (which in turn only really applies to the varying sects of Christianity and Islam) and that, for that to be the case, at least some part of all holy books claiming to be the undiluted word of their god must be wrong. It's a kind of equal-opportunities offensive concept. Then again, the preamble of the Qu'ran can be summarised as "Nice try, New Testament. The blokes writing it down kinda screwed up though. This is what I, God, actually think."...
The third is that in order to prove the existence of, say, the KJV God by eliminating all other ones, you must disprove non-falsifiable concepts like the Adam Smith God, the Torah God or the Sunni Allah. You cannot disprove non-falsifiable concepts - it's the definition of the phrase.
But, probably most important of all, proving the existence of anything precludes believing in that thing. You cannot "believe" in God if he's standing in front of you, melting heretics and turning Sunny Delight into Drambuie. You can only acknowledge his existence. I don't believe in my dogs...
This is probably the primary issue with the whole thing. No-one who truly believes in their particular breed of sky pixie should ever be seeking to empirically prove its existence, because once proven there can be no belief. The folks who wrote all of the holy books of the monotheistic religions knew this, which is why there's lovely, untestable characteristics of any version of the sky pixie. If it cannot be tested, it cannot be proven nor disproven (there's a colossal logical fallacy in requiring disproof of existence or proof of non-existence) and that means it can be believed. On the same basis, no-one should be attempting to emiprically prove the non-existence of any sky-pixie because it's foolish to try - it's a logical fallacy and you'll never succeed. You can only show that certain parts of certain holy books that underpin the belief are inaccurate (or lies), at which point the defence of allegory ("it's not meant to be taken literally!") pops up and you're fighting to prove non-existence again...
The issue between the two camps arises when either tries to convince the other of their ground. People not of your religion can easily show that parts of your holy book are wrong and thus not the word of God they claim to be. For crying out glaven, all holy books were penned by people so far back in your ancestry they may as well have been lizards as far as you're concerned and they all make basic, demonstrable factual errors that are entirely consistent with our understanding of the universe (at least their understanding of it) at that time. Even if God was dictating the books and physically moving their hand, the books have been translated and retranslated so many times they could have been penned by a woodpecker with mad cow disease - and in the case of the Bible, selectively turned into an anthology (including the rejection of some books) by a Roman emperor a thousand years since - but they should not underpin your belief either particularly as the OT is widely acknowledged in the Christian world as allegorical anyway. The question at that point is why would anyone believe in the creation myth as stated in the OT - especially literally - when they pay no heed whatsoever to the cleanliness requirements a couple of chapters hence (except the bit about bonking other men)?
Then we have the counter-argument which is far worse. It essentially boils down to "This is very, very complicated physics that I don't understand and because it cannot be explained in a manner I don't understand it must be untrue compared to a simple concept I can understand even though it has no basis in fact.". Religious rejection of cosmological concepts that anyone can watch occurring through a telescope (if it's big enough - the only difference between Hubble and Galileo's first attempt is size, material, manufacturing tolerances and a billion dollars; otherwise it's the same concept) on the basis of it being quite complicated is, frankly, insanity. Religious counter-arguments about the origins of the universe almost always involve a gross misrepresentation of the science involved - generally the Laws of Thermodynamics are invoked and misquoted, about things tending towards chaos and life requiring order - or just plain rejection of it, which is nothing more than just wiping your arse on the whole of science. It seems... ludicrous that anyone would reject a type of science that they don't want to accept while happily using a computer on the internet to do so - eating and drinking ten thousand years of scientific progress and with a dose of acetaminophen for their headache - despite the same principles underpinning every aspect of their daily life that underpin cosmology and quantum physics...
Ultimately, atheists don't really care what you believe in. Or don't. There are some proselytising atheists who want you to not believe in it any more, but largely we don't care. What we do care about is when science is misused and misrepresented (or mistrusted because it's "difficult") to prove concepts that cannot be proven - when known facts about the formation and continuation of our universe, our Solar System, our planet and our species are rejected and rewritten to "prove" a concept that no-one should ever attempt to prove in the first place. When "it's just a theory" is used, in seriousness, as a rejection of knowledge. When people literally lie (or unknowingly repeat lies, to be kind) in order to better represent their flavour of belief system.
No atheist will (should) tell you that there is no species of being with more power than man, or that we understand everything that can be understood, or that it's simply an impossibility that our universe and all others were flicked into existence by an as-yet undefined, overarching power. What we can tell you is that there cannot be any proof or disproof of the Judeo-Islamo-Christian God of Abraham as written in the Torah, Talmud, Qu'ran and Bible and that every previous physical limitation that religious leaders have placed on our understanding of the universe has been pushed through and understood. We will tell you that a concept that is not yet understood will be labelled as "not yet understood" and not assumed to be explained by religion, just as has occurred with every previous concept that we have not understood until we understood it.
Belief in any one of the sky pixies - or an otherwise undefined one - is not a preclusion of accepting that which can be shown about our universe (which, as it stands, goes back to about 10^-30 seconds after the Big Bang and covers just about everything we can see from this planet with present technology - there's a couple of gaps which are "not yet understood"). Nor is science a belief system which requires the explanation of everything right now or stand to immediate rejection - even the Amish, as technologically primitive as they are, every day use scientific principles advanced enough that anyone from the first 95% of modern history would not comprehend and reject as magic...
The problem with every single one of those bulletpoints is that it is not a rejection of the science underpinning it, but a rejection of philosophical extensions that come out of it. Rejecting evolution because you think it means you aren't special any more is every bit as arrogant and vain as it is irrelevant. Not one word of it is a valid argument against evolution (in fact a couple of words of it are absolutely and demonstrably wrong), but an argument against rejecting knowledge because it seems complicated - or rather ignoring people who'd reject knowledge because it seems complicated.
I'd address them all, but I'd be repeating myself and this post is already, massively tl;dr.
hampus_dhThen be my guest. Show me an intelligent answer as to why god exists.
Spiritual proof?
Because it says so in the bible?
Because you feel he exists?
TankAss95
It has been stated numerous times already that the existence of God cannot be proven my any scientific evidence.
Wether you believe that the existence of God may be plausible is entirely up to you.
I believe in God because I believe that it is the only possible way in which we exist.
hampus_dhAnd again, anyone fails to come up with an intelligent answer. like i said from the
beginning.
TankAss95But then again I could say that you have no proof that your theory (the big bang) as you cannot explain where, the material that supposedly created the big bang came from.
It has been stated numerous times already that the existence of God cannot be proven my any scientific evidence.
Wether you believe that the existence of God may be plausible is entirely up to you.
I believe in God because I believe that it is the only possible way in which we exist.
I believe in God because I believe that it is the only possible way in which we exist.
PeterJBA singularity. Though the first element from the Big Bang was probably Hydrogen, as it is the simplest, and most abudant in the universe.
Generally if you're an entity them the arrow of time does not exist from your point of reference.![]()
hampus_dhThe key word here is YET.
Patience.
And what is this material you speak of? exploding material you said?
Above
The big bang was created by material, yet it is your own job to explain your theory, not me.
VANDENALWe already have proof of it then, we just have a little more work to do.
You're just dodging questions because you have no proof and you are afraid to question what you believe because you don't want to be wrong.
We all make mistakes, you can be wrong.
If God made His presence obvious we would have no choice and no freedom about whether to believe in Him or not. He wants us to choose of our own free will to seek Him and to find Him.
God is willing and able to prevent evil, but most of the evil in this world comes from the consequences of free will, as Ive stated previously.
It's becoming very apparent now.
How do you not see that this completely invalidates the claim that god loves everyone?
You cant discuss rationally about god bevause there is no rational things about believing in a god.
Nor are there any intelligent answers about god aswell.
The reason we are here discussing an irational subject is because we care about humanity going forward and about your brain being mind******.
Hun200kmhWow ... The empire stricked back in the latest 12 hours I see. You guys are so predictable it gets funny. And a bit sad too, because it becomes apparent that when the going gets tough, some lose their restraint, stop rational debate (oh the irony, this from the rational scientifical side) and start posting in a borderline insulting way towards those that don't mind saying publicly they believe in the existence of God.
Some atheists have a problem with theism, I pity them for it. I don't have a problem with atheism, and I'm more than able to rationally discuss the existence of God. Because my faith doesn't blind me. So, I'm done here, if anything this discussion made me question and rationalize my beliefs once again and so far I think they have become even stronger
(as I said, true faith requires everlasting doubt)
I do pity people that has an issue with others believing in God. But I'm done here, this is no longer a debate.
VANDENALThere is no proof confirming your beliefs. Sorry for sounding sceptical, but how often do you question your beliefs? Just wondering...
Point is we don't know if either is correct (God or no God in existence). If this "God" is indeed some supernatural being it is possible HOWEVER very unlikely that humans just aren't able to see this "realm" that heaven and this "God" are in.
Therefore it is probably better (and not as insane) to argue that this "God" does not exist, as no physical evidence has ever been given to support "believers" opinions. We live in a society of scepticism where humans need proof to support their opinions. I do not think Christians (or people of any religion which supports the belief that there is a God) can even attempt to make Atheist's believe that there is a God as there is no physical proof to support these religious peoples claims. A proper analogy to use for this is that Atheists are the Ford F150 that is driving up a hill and goes over it and keeps going, and the religious people are the Fiat 500 that makes it halfway before rolling back down because there arguments are rather pointless. I could give all my opinion to say Mark Sanchez is the #1 Quarterback in the NFL, but proof shows that I'd be downright wrong.
So for religious people, I simply ask, where is the proof to support your claims of an "All-mighty, good 'God' that gives us the 'freedom' to choose between two places which have not been proven to exist, that cannot do no evil, yet floods the entire earth killing many"?
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
(Genesis chapter 6)
VANDENALBarely anyone even considers the Old Testament factual!
So you questioning the bible, yet disregarding anything that is written within it?
And many people consider the old testament as being factual.