Do you believe in God?

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  • 24,537 comments
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 627 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 369 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,059 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,054
Tic Tach

Actually it isn't. Many scholars do believe it was the Book of Job, other think it might be the first five books which were written together.
 
Tic Tach
But none of the OT was written 2150 years BCE. More like 600-1000, with many agreeing ~750.

More like 1500-1700 BCE. However, it's difficult to get a accurate date. Although many Jewish scholars believe the Torah was written 2000 BCE or earlier.
 
If God made His presence blindingly obvious to the World, then there would be no need for Faith, and free will would be non-existent.

While I understand (though none of it has any meaning to my own life) with most of what you wrote, this bit I both disagree with and don't understand ;)

How can you say that if God made himself obvious, free will would be non-existent? Given that many of us here don't believe in God already and still have free will, what difference would it make for a theist if God made his presence known to the world? Or do theists require God in order to have free will?

If you're implying that God has to exist for free will to exist and that choosing not to believe in God is just God giving you the option, then I disagree entirely, and that's the sort of assertion that really bugs me about religion.

It's essentially theists saying "free will is proof that God exists, and you're an atheist because he's letting you choose to be one". Which is really small-minded.

I prefer to believe that free will exists regardless, and that you can use that free will to do with as you please. If that involves believing in a mystical being, then so be it.
 
The one thing I have noticed is that the supporters of the existence of God in this thread have generally more respect for those who disagree than the non believers of the existence God have towards the believers.

Twaddle. What’s really going on here is this:

The theist gets to make a whole host of wild, fantastical, supernatural, baseless assertions, all without a shred of evidence, and in addition, they engage in a level of intellectual dishonesty not seen in any other area of discourse, and fully ignore and refuse to acknowledge when their assertions are shown to be false, and just keep bouncing back with the same stunted, bankrupt lies like one of those inflatable punching dolls, and then………get this, if and when a non-theist gets in the slightest way testy or miffed at this level of ignorance and unreason, they get to whine & complain that we're being “disrespectful”. A convenient and old trick, but it's so transparently pathetic now for all to see. Please stop.

I’m sorry, but I find the above-mentioned antics and cheap tactics of the theist are more “disrespectful” and cowardly than any name-calling could be.
 
TankAss95
From Evolution: Fact or Fiction

Accepting the theory of evolution is much more than an intellectual opinion. It means pinning one's thinking to a materialistic belief-system that reduces everything to nature and natural processes - and this has far-reaching consequences. William Provine, professor of History and Biological Sciences at Cornell University, who calls himself 'a total atheist', gives us more than inkling of where it leads: 'Let me summarise my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear... There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directing forces of any kind. There is no life after death... There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.' This makes it clear that evolution is not some kind of philosophical toy we can bring out occasionally for our interest or amusement. It radically affects every part of life. If the world is 'just there', if life is the result of a fascinating fluke, and if we ourselves are nothing more than biological accidents, we are faced with an avalanche of questions:

• If information came into being by chance, how can we know that anything is true?
• How can evolution account for the universal and invariable laws of logic, on which all our thinking depends? On what basis can we study the world Un any coherent way and come to sensible conclusions about it.
• If the brain is nothing more than an accident of biological evolution, why should we trust it's ability to tell us so? How can chance accumulations of atoms and molecules decide that that is what they are?
• How can shrink-wrapped bags of biological elements have any rights to justice, freedom, possessions or happiness - or even to life itself? What gives us any greater value than rocks or reptiles, trees or termites?
• How did the products of a succession if generic flukes learn to remember the past, evaluate the present and wonder about the future?
• If we are what someone called 'computers made of meat', how did we acquire an aesthetic diminution, enabling us to appreciate beauty in nature and art, when doing this makes no contribution to evolution?
• Why should we look for purpose or meaning in life? What is the sense Un genetically programmed machines talking about 'quality of life' and 'values', or concerning themselves with aims or aspirations?
• As it is impossible to jump from atoms to ethics and from molecular to morality, why do we have an unbuilt sense of right and wrong? Where did conscience come from, and why does it have such amazing power? Why do we sometimes feel guilty or ashamed?
• Why do we have a sense of obligation or responsibility to other people? Why should mere blobs of animate matter be concerned for the temporary well-being of other blobs if both are on their way to extinction?
• How can we live - or die - with dignity if our existence is meaningless? Why do we take ourselves so seriously if Richard Dawkins is right to say that we are nothing but 'jumped-up apes'?
• If the survival of the fittest is evolution's greatest prize, why should we care for the frail, the mentally defective, the chronically sick, the senile, or the starving? Should we not give evolution a helping hand by getting rid of them - and the sooner the better?
• If humans are no more than grown-up germs, why are we the only species preoccupied with death? Why should approaching it - or delaying it - be of the slightest concern to us? If we began as a fluke, live out of a farce and end as fertiliser, what hope or help can we give to someone who is dying?
• Why is our sense of spirituality so strong that man has been called 'a religious animal'? Is this something we should expect to happen to dust left around for millions of years?

Tic Tach
Twaddle. What’s really going on here is this:

The theist gets to make a whole host of wild, fantastical, supernatural, baseless assertions, all without a shred of evidence, and in addition, they engage in a level of intellectual dishonesty not seen in any other area of discourse, and fully ignore and refuse to acknowledge when their assertions are shown to be false, and just keep bouncing back with the same stunted, bankrupt lies like one of those inflatable punching dolls, and then………get this, if and when a non-theist gets in the slightest way testy or miffed at this level of ignorance and unreason, they get to whine & complain that we're being “disrespectful”. A convenient and old trick, but it's so transparently pathetic now for all to see. Please stop.

I’m sorry, but I find the above-mentioned antics and cheap tactics of the theist are more “disrespectful” and cowardly than any name-calling could be.

:dunce:
 
To be honest you did agree to the AUP which states:

"You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group."

Everyone has a right to their opinion and there can be intelligent discussion sounding the existence of God. However, as with any debate, you need to be tactful and respectful or else people won't listen to you. You have a right to express your opinions and provide counterpoints to statements you don't agree with, but name calling and the like seem rather unacceptable.

There is no reason to "angry" over someone's opinion. Just lighten up and continue to provide counterpoints.
 
To be honest you did agree to the AUP which states:

"You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group."

Correct; which is why I refrain from doing so to best of my abilities.
 
I don't really agree here. If God parted the clouds and walked down a blinding ray of Sun light into the middle of every major city on Earth at the same time (ie basically something that would prove he was there), that would not infringe on anyone's free will. They would still have the option to believe or not.

We lose the free will to believe in Him if he makes an appearance, because His existence then becomes obvious. But we still retain the free will to follow His guidance or not.

Also, considering that people are "ignorant, stupid, sinful" by nature, at least after the Garden of Eden, it seems sort of contradictory for God to claim that he cares about people, yet only try to save them through very indirect and obscure methods.

Thankfully, God sees everyone as His loved children, even if we are ingorant, stupid and sinful. He sees the potential in us and loves us because He created us.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean in the last part of that paragraph. :)

This too seems a bit irresponsible. It's really not fair to those suffering that a person who could stop the suffering by will alone chooses to do nothing.

If this was how legal systems worked, there would be no crime, but in the bad sense - nothing you did could be punished because it would be protected by free will.

If God intervened everytime somebody did something bad, or thought about doing something bad, which would be happening 24/7, that would mean that we were no longer free. He could stop the really bad stuff from happening, but where would he draw the line? In His eyes, sin is sin.
 
Because I get tired of people twisting what atheism truly is, I'm a fanatic?

No, because of your pathethic overreaction to a post that was intended only to grasp some irony on the so called atheist certainty. You're reacting to an distinct opinion (or a misunderstood concept, as you made it sound like) much like a fervorous fanatic believer would do.

Atheism doesn't have any view one way or the other about how the universe started, it just doesn't accept any unproven religious explanation. Now, individual atheists have their own views on what the think started it all (yes, based on theories), but those views lay outside of atheistic thought. Detach the two in your mind.

Fair enough, it's only a matter of ignoring all other beliefs, disqualifying them all. But yet, without coming up with a plain solution.

"Pure" atheism is then just a complete confrontation of flawed religious history with a sheer dose of ignorancy.

No, no, no, no. See above. Atheism is simply this (and ONLY this): Not believing in a god that's not proven to exist. Individual atheists may choose to consider some theories over others to be more plausible, but again, that's outside of what atheism is. It's just a person's thoughts.

I believe the universe formed from an intelligent design, who sketched the cosmos to allow intelligent life to exist? A common pattern? a misterious particle? That may be the definition of a "God" to me, and in regards to that, as you've already explained atheism by itself, is completely oblivious and ignorant.

Your theories are wrong, I'll just disqualify them without providing any alternative solution.

See how pathethic that sounds?

I'm not contesting the philosophycal concept of atheism since as you've already exposed, it's just unbased denial.

As a Christian, are all of your thoughts part of Christian doctrine? No, you have many thoughts about other, non-Christian things. Guess what, so do atheists.

I'm not Christhian, nor do I believe in any classic representation of a God... though I'm not surprised you don't know that, you actually didn't read any of my previous posts, but instead got the first opportunity to spread your anti-religious manifesto all over the thread. That's why I called you a fanatic, you're not posting, you're acting in a campaign.

If you want to argue against something, at least know what you're arguing against.

Yeah, I was arguing against the arrogancy of the so called atheists on this thread. The crucial point is: The christians must prove the existence of their God, believing that you only have to disqualify the christian theories is tackling the discussion in a single-sided and unfair way, making this not a debate, but more of a trial.

Much like Tic Tach's analogy, which I politely was contesting.

If you don't believe in the efficiency of a theory, provide uncontestable evidence to unprove it, otherwise you're just being ignorant.... oh, or atheist.
 
Hmmmmm. Is ignorancy a word? :indiff:

Yep, good counterpoint. :rolleyes:

English is not my native language and I actually mistranslated "ignorance", what an intelligent observation...
 
More like 1500-1700 BCE. However, it's difficult to get a accurate date. Although many Jewish scholars believe the Torah was written 2000 BCE or earlier.

I keep hearing ~1300BCE. There are many who think that the last parts of Deuteronomy have a different author than the first.

Regardless, it's not possible that Torah was given in its entirety to Moses at Sinai.

God would have had to say something along the lines of: "Yo dawg there's going to be this revolt and all sorts of calamity befalling you guys, but don't do anything about it. (Me) forbid that you change the story."


Though the timeline of the Old Testament drops off when Cyrus the Great conquers the Babylonians, the various megillot (scrolls) of the Tanakh were most likely codified two or three centuries later.

The New Testament was codified in 386 at the council of Nicaea.

Quran was likely codified in the decades after Muhammad's death.
 
Your theories are wrong, I'll just disqualify them without providing any alternative solution.

If you don't believe in the efficiency of a theory, provide uncontestable evidence to unprove it, otherwise you're just being ignorant.... oh, or atheist.

Uhhh, that's not how theories work. A solution proposed without evidence is a guess. Ignoring a guess because it has no evidence is sane.

In order to advance a theory, evidence must be provided. To debunk a theory, the evidence must be shown inaccurate. If there's no evidence, there's nothing to be shown to be inaccurate and so it can be rightly ignored.


Yeah, I was arguing against the arrogancy of the so called atheists on this thread. The crucial point is: The christians must prove the existence of their God, believing that you only have to disqualify the christian theories is tackling the discussion in a single-sided and unfair way, making this not a debate, but more of a trial.

Umm... not really. By the Judeochristian definition of "god", there cannot be any proof and, more importantly, there cannot be disproof. Their "god" is a non-falsifiable concept, meaning it's utterly foolish to attempt to prove it and utterly worthless to attempt to disprove it.

Non-falsifiable things cannot exist in reality - the usual get-out for this is that God is beyond our reality, which always begs the question as to where their proof (in our reality) comes from, but that's for another, much longer post.

Ultimately believers believe in their belief. If you have uncontestable evidence of something it ceases to be a belief and simply becomes an acknowledgement - if God showed up tomorrow and did undeniably godly things, we wouldn't all start believing in God, rather acknowledging its existence. However, the source of their belief is almost always a Version of a thrice-retranslated anthology (interpreted by a man with a title in a frock) which makes many, many unsubtantiated, unsubtantiatable and ludicrous claims along its way - the only evidence of their God is of poor quality and heresay.


A believer trying to argue that there is evidence for their God is both wrong and not really of very firm faith - belief should be enough as evidence denies belief (or proof denies faith, as God once said). A non-believer can quite rightly point out that there is no evidence, but really is just wasting their time as belief can easily be strong enough to ignore evidence.
 
Famine
Uhhh, that's not how theories work. A solution proposed without evidence is a guess. Ignoring a guess because it has no evidence is sane.

In order to advance a theory, evidence must be provided. To debunk a theory, the evidence must be shown inaccurate. If there's no evidence, there's nothing to be shown to be inaccurate and so it can be rightly ignored.

Umm... not really. By the Judeochristian definition of "god", there cannot be any proof and, more importantly, there cannot be disproof. Their "god" is a non-falsifiable concept, meaning it's utterly foolish to attempt to prove it and utterly worthless to attempt to disprove it.

Non-falsifiable things cannot exist in reality - the usual get-out for this is that God is beyond our reality, which always begs the question as to where their proof (in our reality) comes from, but that's for another, much longer post.

Ultimately believers believe in their belief. If you have uncontestable evidence of something it ceases to be a belief and simply becomes an acknowledgement - if God showed up tomorrow and did undeniably godly things, we wouldn't all start believing in God, rather acknowledging its existence. However, the source of their belief is almost always a Version of a thrice-retranslated anthology (interpreted by a man with a title in a frock) which makes many, many unsubtantiated, unsubtantiatable and ludicrous claims along its way - the only evidence of their God is of poor quality and heresay.

A believer trying to argue that there is evidence for their God is both wrong and not really of very firm faith - belief should be enough as evidence denies belief (or proof denies faith, as God once said). A non-believer can quite rightly point out that there is no evidence, but really is just wasting their time as belief can easily be strong enough to ignore evidence.

Could the existence of a God be proved by the elimination of all other theories? Take the existence of our universe for example, or more specifically, how it was made. If all other theories became false, then that would prove the existence of an intelligent being creating the universe, or am I mistaken?
Forgive me, for I am in my youth and still lack intelligence and wisdom, but I just cannot find our existence possible through a chaotic universe. I believe our existence needs order to continue to survive. If there was a big bang, then surely the universe is chaotic.
I believe that in a chaotic universe, any progress that would have been made towards our existence would constantly be erased or dismantled. Infinite possibility may be true with infinite chances, but only in the right conditions.
I would like to see an Atheist respond to this passage, that I have already posted numerous times already with no response:

From Evolution: Fact or Fiction

Accepting the theory of evolution is much more than an intellectual opinion. It means pinning one's thinking to a materialistic belief-system that reduces everything to nature and natural processes - and this has far-reaching consequences. William Provine, professor of History and Biological Sciences at Cornell University, who calls himself 'a total atheist', gives us more than inkling of where it leads: 'Let me summarise my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear... There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directing forces of any kind. There is no life after death... There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.' This makes it clear that evolution is not some kind of philosophical toy we can bring out occasionally for our interest or amusement. It radically affects every part of life. If the world is 'just there', if life is the result of a fascinating fluke, and if we ourselves are nothing more than biological accidents, we are faced with an avalanche of questions:

• If information came into being by chance, how can we know that anything is true?
• How can evolution account for the universal and invariable laws of logic, on which all our thinking depends? On what basis can we study the world in any coherent way and come to sensible conclusions about it.
• If the brain is nothing more than an accident of biological evolution, why should we trust it's ability to tell us so? How can chance accumulations of atoms and molecules decide that that is what they are?
• How can shrink-wrapped bags of biological elements have any rights to justice, freedom, possessions or happiness - or even to life itself? What gives us any greater value than rocks or reptiles, trees or termites?
• How did the products of a succession if generic flukes learn to remember the past, evaluate the present and wonder about the future?
• If we are what someone called 'computers made of meat', how did we acquire an aesthetic diminution, enabling us to appreciate beauty in nature and art, when doing this makes no contribution to evolution?
• Why should we look for purpose or meaning in life? What is the sense Un genetically programmed machines talking about 'quality of life' and 'values', or concerning themselves with aims or aspirations?
• As it is impossible to jump from atoms to ethics and from molecular to morality, why do we have an unbuilt sense of right and wrong? Where did conscience come from, and why does it have such amazing power? Why do we sometimes feel guilty or ashamed?
• Why do we have a sense of obligation or responsibility to other people? Why should mere blobs of animate matter be concerned for the temporary well-being of other blobs if both are on their way to extinction?
• How can we live - or die - with dignity if our existence is meaningless? Why do we take ourselves so seriously if Richard Dawkins is right to say that we are nothing but 'jumped-up apes'?
• If the survival of the fittest is evolution's greatest prize, why should we care for the frail, the mentally defective, the chronically sick, the senile, or the starving? Should we not give evolution a helping hand by getting rid of them - and the sooner the better?
• If humans are no more than grown-up germs, why are we the only species preoccupied with death? Why should approaching it - or delaying it - be of the slightest concern to us? If we began as a fluke, live out of a farce and end as fertiliser, what hope or help can we give to someone who is dying?
• Why is our sense of spirituality so strong that man has been called 'a religious animal'? Is this something we should expect to happen to dust left around for millions of years?
 
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Could the existence of a God be proved by the elimination of all other theories? Take the existence of our universe for example, or more specifically, how it was made. If all other theories became false, then that would prove the existence of an intelligent being creating the universe, or am I mistaken?
Forgive me, for I am in my youth and still lack intelligence and wisdom, but I just cannot find our existence possible through a chaotic universe. I believe our existence needs order to continue to survive. If there was a big bang, then surely the universe is chaotic.
I believe that in a chaotic universe, any progress that would have been made towards our existence would constantly be erased or dismantled. Infinite possibility may be true with infinite chances, but only in the right conditions.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that God's existence will be proven the method of scientific theory. As people of faith the best we can offer is anecdotal evidence. Eliminating all theories wouldn't necessarily prove His existence, more just those theories are incorrect and we are yet to find the correct one.

Life on Earth has existed for about 3.5 billion years, compared to 4.5 billion years for the Earth's existence. When the Sun expands and engulfs the Earth in roughly 5 billion years, the Earth will have been destroyed, but life will have ended millions of years prior to this. This process of a young Earth that begins life and then ends it after 6 or 7 billion years, would be the equivalent of a few seconds from the point of view of how long the universe will exist for. Similar processes would happen in other star systems with their own life forms, so from that perspective, their is a 'brief' period of 'right conditions' which are being destroyed and created constantly all over the universe.
 
We lose the free will to believe in Him if he makes an appearance, because His existence then becomes obvious. But we still retain the free will to follow His guidance or not.
Fair enough.



Thankfully, God sees everyone as His loved children, even if we are ingorant, stupid and sinful. He sees the potential in us and loves us because He created us.
I wasn't referring to how God perceives us compared to what we are. I was pointing out that he knows we're inclined to do wrong, so it seems that by not being blatantly obvious, he's willing to let some percentage of people go to hell or suffer in someway because of lack of faith, because he knows that they won't be convinced without him coming face to face with them.

That is what I meant by

"it seems sort of contradictory for God to claim that he cares about people, yet only try to save them through very indirect and obscure methods."

If the goal was to get everyone into heaven, I'd think he'd come around to everyone's front door so to speak to make sure that they got there.



If God intervened everytime somebody did something bad, or thought about doing something bad, which would be happening 24/7, that would mean that we were no longer free. He could stop the really bad stuff from happening, but where would he draw the line? In His eyes, sin is sin.
What about preaching and missionaries though? Doesn't that influence our decisions to a degree?

Could the existence of a God be proved by the elimination of all other theories? Take the existence of our universe for example, or more specifically, how it was made. If all other theories became false, then that would prove the existence of an intelligent being creating the universe, or am I mistaken?
Forgive me, for I am in my youth and still lack intelligence and wisdom, but I just cannot find our existence possible through a chaotic universe. I believe our existence needs order to continue to survive. If there was a big bang, then surely the universe is chaotic.
I believe that in a chaotic universe, any progress that would have been made towards our existence would constantly be erased or dismantled. Infinite possibility may be true with infinite chances, but only in the right conditions.
I would like to see an Atheist respond to this passage, that I have already posted numerous times already with no response:

From Evolution: Fact or Fiction

Accepting the theory of evolution is much more than an intellectual opinion. It means pinning one's thinking to a materialistic belief-system that reduces everything to nature and natural processes - and this has far-reaching consequences. William Provine, professor of History and Biological Sciences at Cornell University, who calls himself 'a total atheist', gives us more than inkling of where it leads: 'Let me summarise my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear... There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directing forces of any kind. There is no life after death... There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.' This makes it clear that evolution is not some kind of philosophical toy we can bring out occasionally for our interest or amusement. It radically affects every part of life. If the world is 'just there', if life is the result of a fascinating fluke, and if we ourselves are nothing more than biological accidents, we are faced with an avalanche of questions:
If information came into being by chance, how can we know that anything is true?
You can't. Our senses aren't perfect, so chance or not, you can't know what is true. You can only process your senses with an imperfect mind.

How can evolution account for the universal and invariable laws of logic, on which all our thinking depends? On what basis can we study the world in any coherent way and come to sensible conclusions about it.
It doesn't need to. It's a theory for Evolution, not logic. Evolution describes Evolution, not gravity or math.

If the brain is nothing more than an accident of biological evolution, why should we trust it's ability to tell us so? How can chance accumulations of atoms and molecules decide that that is what they are?
I don't understand what he is getting at in the first question. The second question is something we don't have an answer to at the moment, but observations indicate that non living things can comprise living things.

How can shrink-wrapped bags of biological elements have any rights to justice, freedom, possessions or happiness - or even to life itself? What gives us any greater value than rocks or reptiles, trees or termites?
We're not really much different from rocks and termites, though we're a lot smarter and more powerful. Since not much over powers us, we get to make the rules.

If rights were woven in the very fabric of existence itself, then were wild animal blatantly violating those rights when they killed our ancestors regularly while they struggled to survive?

We only have rights because we're in charge, and we like being alive and happy.

How did the products of a succession if generic flukes learn to remember the past, evaluate the present and wonder about the future?
Evolution
If we are what someone called 'computers made of meat', how did we acquire an aesthetic diminution, enabling us to appreciate beauty in nature and art, when doing this makes no contribution to evolution?
Evolution. Yes I disagree with the last part of the quote.

Since we have art, it probably contributed to increasing our survival. It could have made life less miserable or boring for us (thus increasing the will to live), or helped to show potential mates how creative or intelligent an individual was.

Why should we look for purpose or meaning in life? What is the sense Un genetically programmed machines talking about 'quality of life' and 'values', or concerning themselves with aims or aspirations?
There is no purpose or meaning in life, and I've been happier since I realized that. I'm pretty much free to do what makes me happy.

The above quote is misleading by the way. It implies computers can't have emotions or desires. The ones we make can't, but that doesn't mean all computers can't. It's certainly a possibility that our minds are basically biological computers. If that's the case, computers can have emotions and desires.

As it is impossible to jump from atoms to ethics and from molecular to morality, why do we have an unbuilt sense of right and wrong? Where did conscience come from, and why does it have such amazing power? Why do we sometimes feel guilty or ashamed?
Evolution

Why do we have a sense of obligation or responsibility to other people? Why should mere blobs of animate matter be concerned for the temporary well-being of other blobs if both are on their way to extinction?
Evolution

How can we live - or die - with dignity if our existence is meaningless? Why do we take ourselves so seriously if Richard Dawkins is right to say that we are nothing but 'jumped-up apes'?
My life is as meaningless as everyone else's. I'm not going to cry over it, I'm just going to go live it.

Why on Earth does my life need a purpose?

We take our selves seriously because we evolved self preservation.


If the survival of the fittest is evolution's greatest prize, why should we care for the frail, the mentally defective, the chronically sick, the senile, or the starving? Should we not give evolution a helping hand by getting rid of them - and the sooner the better?
What about medicine? Killing off everyone sick isn't particularly helpful.

Go back to pre history when we were just a bunch of people in huts and getting a sizable population was difficult and you can see why we became social, cooperative animals.

If humans are no more than grown-up germs, why are we the only species preoccupied with death? Why should approaching it - or delaying it - be of the slightest concern to us? If we began as a fluke, live out of a farce and end as fertiliser, what hope or help can we give to someone who is dying?

We evolved the intelligence to care about death.

Also, what's wrong with germs?

Why is our sense of spirituality so strong that man has been called 'a religious animal'? Is this something we should expect to happen to dust left around for millions of years?

Why not. I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in spiritual anything. In my mind, religion is just a proto form of science mixed with art. It stemmed from out intelligence and creativity, which came from evolution.
 
What about preaching and missionaries though? Doesn't that influence our decisions to a degree?

Obviously yes this will have some influence on what one thinks. But it's your choice about whether you want to listen to what they have to say or not, and it is their choice to preach it. Though I don't believe you should if the listener does not want to hear it.
 
Obviously yes this will have some influence on what one thinks. But it's your choice about whether you want to listen to what they have to say or not, and it is their choice to preach it. Though I don't believe you should if the listener does not want to hear it.

Is actually quite interesting, because you have the choice; going to an insufferable eternity of pain and despair, or seek salvation from it by believing.

Freedom of choice people.
 
Is actually quite interesting, because you have the choice; going to an insufferable eternity of pain and despair, or seek salvation from it by believing.

Freedom of choice people.

I hate to even comment on this topic, but this very issue is the thing that first started me down the road to Atheism so long ago...

I'm not posting the definitions to be a turd, but just for clarity. Under the legal definition of freedom:

Main Entry: free·dom
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another c : the quality or state of being exempt or released from something onerous
2 a : a political or civil right b : FRANCHISE 2
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
Cite This Source


Freedom to choose God and heaven, or No God and hell, is anything but freedom of choice. Eternal damnation is surely coercion.

Legal Dictionary

Main Entry: co·er·cion
Pronunciation: kO-'&r-zh&n, -sh&n
Function: noun
: the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will; also : the defense that one acted under coercion —see also DEFENSE, DURESS —compare UNDUE INFLUENCE

So this freedom of choice that I too was taught about in church and religious schools is not actually freedom at all, as no choice is really being offered. If free will comes down to "Do as I say or else.", while you are 'free' to choose whatever, you are not actually given free will in this. This was the loose thread that for me started the whole thing unraveling.
 
Everyone has a right to their opinion and there can be intelligent discussion sounding the existence of God.

Really? I haven´t seen any intelligent words on the existence of a god.
All i have read up until this point has been on the other end of the spectrum.

One is 100% christian
One believe we have free will but God can manipulate people´s thoughts so my life gets better for a moment.
One believe god is a bearded man, ....ok
And one has breaken free from religions but also go on spritiual evidence as to why god exist or he just don´t have some answers to fill in this empty space so God fits that one perfectly. Then of course there are these theories so it sounds like they actually have met god as they know he´s not running on time or some other crazy idea.

There has been NO intelligent discussions going on about gods.
There has been ALOT of intelligent debunking going on about gods though.
 
Is actually quite interesting, because you have the choice; going to an insufferable eternity of pain and despair, or seek salvation from it by believing.

Freedom of choice people.

^^^ That has to be one of the most impoverished, sickest statements I've read here so far.



Assure a man that he has a soul and then frighten him with old wives tales as to what is to become of it afterwards, and you have a hooked fish, a mental slave. (Theodore Dreiser)
 
Is actually quite interesting, because you have the choice; going to an insufferable eternity of pain and despair, or seek salvation from it by believing.

Freedom of choice people.

Anyone who believes that rubbish deserves all of the cult brainwashing that they have been subjected to .

Freedom of choice ? I don't think so .

Sick & delusional concept ? Absolutely . 👍
 
I thought he was being sarcastic, maybe not dk

Indeed I was sarcastic about it, the impressive thing is that such statement is taking an impressive response, because while some people can identify it as sarcasm(maybe by checking previous posts in this thread), there is people who doesn't identify such thing as sarcasm which demonstrates that such claims and basis for choice are indeed handled like that by Christians.

The irony of this is that while I was sort of sarcastic about it, people tent to dismiss the sarcasm outright instead of analysing the basis of this idea which surrounds the whole "religion choice" in the west.
 
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