Joey D
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Tic Tachwrong!
Actually it isn't. Many scholars do believe it was the Book of Job, other think it might be the first five books which were written together.
Tic Tachwrong!
wrong!
Tic TachBut none of the OT was written 2150 years BCE. More like 600-1000, with many agreeing ~750.
If God made His presence blindingly obvious to the World, then there would be no need for Faith, and free will would be non-existent.
The one thing I have noticed is that the supporters of the existence of God in this thread have generally more respect for those who disagree than the non believers of the existence God have towards the believers.
TankAss95From Evolution: Fact or Fiction
Accepting the theory of evolution is much more than an intellectual opinion. It means pinning one's thinking to a materialistic belief-system that reduces everything to nature and natural processes - and this has far-reaching consequences. William Provine, professor of History and Biological Sciences at Cornell University, who calls himself 'a total atheist', gives us more than inkling of where it leads: 'Let me summarise my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear... There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directing forces of any kind. There is no life after death... There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.' This makes it clear that evolution is not some kind of philosophical toy we can bring out occasionally for our interest or amusement. It radically affects every part of life. If the world is 'just there', if life is the result of a fascinating fluke, and if we ourselves are nothing more than biological accidents, we are faced with an avalanche of questions:
• If information came into being by chance, how can we know that anything is true?
• How can evolution account for the universal and invariable laws of logic, on which all our thinking depends? On what basis can we study the world Un any coherent way and come to sensible conclusions about it.
• If the brain is nothing more than an accident of biological evolution, why should we trust it's ability to tell us so? How can chance accumulations of atoms and molecules decide that that is what they are?
• How can shrink-wrapped bags of biological elements have any rights to justice, freedom, possessions or happiness - or even to life itself? What gives us any greater value than rocks or reptiles, trees or termites?
• How did the products of a succession if generic flukes learn to remember the past, evaluate the present and wonder about the future?
• If we are what someone called 'computers made of meat', how did we acquire an aesthetic diminution, enabling us to appreciate beauty in nature and art, when doing this makes no contribution to evolution?
• Why should we look for purpose or meaning in life? What is the sense Un genetically programmed machines talking about 'quality of life' and 'values', or concerning themselves with aims or aspirations?
• As it is impossible to jump from atoms to ethics and from molecular to morality, why do we have an unbuilt sense of right and wrong? Where did conscience come from, and why does it have such amazing power? Why do we sometimes feel guilty or ashamed?
• Why do we have a sense of obligation or responsibility to other people? Why should mere blobs of animate matter be concerned for the temporary well-being of other blobs if both are on their way to extinction?
• How can we live - or die - with dignity if our existence is meaningless? Why do we take ourselves so seriously if Richard Dawkins is right to say that we are nothing but 'jumped-up apes'?
• If the survival of the fittest is evolution's greatest prize, why should we care for the frail, the mentally defective, the chronically sick, the senile, or the starving? Should we not give evolution a helping hand by getting rid of them - and the sooner the better?
• If humans are no more than grown-up germs, why are we the only species preoccupied with death? Why should approaching it - or delaying it - be of the slightest concern to us? If we began as a fluke, live out of a farce and end as fertiliser, what hope or help can we give to someone who is dying?
• Why is our sense of spirituality so strong that man has been called 'a religious animal'? Is this something we should expect to happen to dust left around for millions of years?
Tic TachTwaddle. What’s really going on here is this:
The theist gets to make a whole host of wild, fantastical, supernatural, baseless assertions, all without a shred of evidence, and in addition, they engage in a level of intellectual dishonesty not seen in any other area of discourse, and fully ignore and refuse to acknowledge when their assertions are shown to be false, and just keep bouncing back with the same stunted, bankrupt lies like one of those inflatable punching dolls, and then………get this, if and when a non-theist gets in the slightest way testy or miffed at this level of ignorance and unreason, they get to whine & complain that we're being “disrespectful”. A convenient and old trick, but it's so transparently pathetic now for all to see. Please stop.
I’m sorry, but I find the above-mentioned antics and cheap tactics of the theist are more “disrespectful” and cowardly than any name-calling could be.
To be honest you did agree to the AUP which states:
"You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group."
I don't really agree here. If God parted the clouds and walked down a blinding ray of Sun light into the middle of every major city on Earth at the same time (ie basically something that would prove he was there), that would not infringe on anyone's free will. They would still have the option to believe or not.
Also, considering that people are "ignorant, stupid, sinful" by nature, at least after the Garden of Eden, it seems sort of contradictory for God to claim that he cares about people, yet only try to save them through very indirect and obscure methods.
This too seems a bit irresponsible. It's really not fair to those suffering that a person who could stop the suffering by will alone chooses to do nothing.
If this was how legal systems worked, there would be no crime, but in the bad sense - nothing you did could be punished because it would be protected by free will.
Because I get tired of people twisting what atheism truly is, I'm a fanatic?
Atheism doesn't have any view one way or the other about how the universe started, it just doesn't accept any unproven religious explanation. Now, individual atheists have their own views on what the think started it all (yes, based on theories), but those views lay outside of atheistic thought. Detach the two in your mind.
No, no, no, no. See above. Atheism is simply this (and ONLY this): Not believing in a god that's not proven to exist. Individual atheists may choose to consider some theories over others to be more plausible, but again, that's outside of what atheism is. It's just a person's thoughts.
As a Christian, are all of your thoughts part of Christian doctrine? No, you have many thoughts about other, non-Christian things. Guess what, so do atheists.
If you want to argue against something, at least know what you're arguing against.
Hmmmmm. Is ignorancy a word?![]()
Tic TachHmmmmm. Is ignorancy a word?![]()
More like 1500-1700 BCE. However, it's difficult to get a accurate date. Although many Jewish scholars believe the Torah was written 2000 BCE or earlier.
Your theories are wrong, I'll just disqualify them without providing any alternative solution.
If you don't believe in the efficiency of a theory, provide uncontestable evidence to unprove it, otherwise you're just being ignorant.... oh, or atheist.
Yeah, I was arguing against the arrogancy of the so called atheists on this thread. The crucial point is: The christians must prove the existence of their God, believing that you only have to disqualify the christian theories is tackling the discussion in a single-sided and unfair way, making this not a debate, but more of a trial.
FamineUhhh, that's not how theories work. A solution proposed without evidence is a guess. Ignoring a guess because it has no evidence is sane.
In order to advance a theory, evidence must be provided. To debunk a theory, the evidence must be shown inaccurate. If there's no evidence, there's nothing to be shown to be inaccurate and so it can be rightly ignored.
Umm... not really. By the Judeochristian definition of "god", there cannot be any proof and, more importantly, there cannot be disproof. Their "god" is a non-falsifiable concept, meaning it's utterly foolish to attempt to prove it and utterly worthless to attempt to disprove it.
Non-falsifiable things cannot exist in reality - the usual get-out for this is that God is beyond our reality, which always begs the question as to where their proof (in our reality) comes from, but that's for another, much longer post.
Ultimately believers believe in their belief. If you have uncontestable evidence of something it ceases to be a belief and simply becomes an acknowledgement - if God showed up tomorrow and did undeniably godly things, we wouldn't all start believing in God, rather acknowledging its existence. However, the source of their belief is almost always a Version of a thrice-retranslated anthology (interpreted by a man with a title in a frock) which makes many, many unsubtantiated, unsubtantiatable and ludicrous claims along its way - the only evidence of their God is of poor quality and heresay.
A believer trying to argue that there is evidence for their God is both wrong and not really of very firm faith - belief should be enough as evidence denies belief (or proof denies faith, as God once said). A non-believer can quite rightly point out that there is no evidence, but really is just wasting their time as belief can easily be strong enough to ignore evidence.
Could the existence of a God be proved by the elimination of all other theories? Take the existence of our universe for example, or more specifically, how it was made. If all other theories became false, then that would prove the existence of an intelligent being creating the universe, or am I mistaken?
Forgive me, for I am in my youth and still lack intelligence and wisdom, but I just cannot find our existence possible through a chaotic universe. I believe our existence needs order to continue to survive. If there was a big bang, then surely the universe is chaotic.
I believe that in a chaotic universe, any progress that would have been made towards our existence would constantly be erased or dismantled. Infinite possibility may be true with infinite chances, but only in the right conditions.
Fair enough.We lose the free will to believe in Him if he makes an appearance, because His existence then becomes obvious. But we still retain the free will to follow His guidance or not.
I wasn't referring to how God perceives us compared to what we are. I was pointing out that he knows we're inclined to do wrong, so it seems that by not being blatantly obvious, he's willing to let some percentage of people go to hell or suffer in someway because of lack of faith, because he knows that they won't be convinced without him coming face to face with them.Thankfully, God sees everyone as His loved children, even if we are ingorant, stupid and sinful. He sees the potential in us and loves us because He created us.
What about preaching and missionaries though? Doesn't that influence our decisions to a degree?If God intervened everytime somebody did something bad, or thought about doing something bad, which would be happening 24/7, that would mean that we were no longer free. He could stop the really bad stuff from happening, but where would he draw the line? In His eyes, sin is sin.
Could the existence of a God be proved by the elimination of all other theories? Take the existence of our universe for example, or more specifically, how it was made. If all other theories became false, then that would prove the existence of an intelligent being creating the universe, or am I mistaken?
Forgive me, for I am in my youth and still lack intelligence and wisdom, but I just cannot find our existence possible through a chaotic universe. I believe our existence needs order to continue to survive. If there was a big bang, then surely the universe is chaotic.
I believe that in a chaotic universe, any progress that would have been made towards our existence would constantly be erased or dismantled. Infinite possibility may be true with infinite chances, but only in the right conditions.
I would like to see an Atheist respond to this passage, that I have already posted numerous times already with no response:
From Evolution: Fact or Fiction
Accepting the theory of evolution is much more than an intellectual opinion. It means pinning one's thinking to a materialistic belief-system that reduces everything to nature and natural processes - and this has far-reaching consequences. William Provine, professor of History and Biological Sciences at Cornell University, who calls himself 'a total atheist', gives us more than inkling of where it leads: 'Let me summarise my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear... There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directing forces of any kind. There is no life after death... There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.' This makes it clear that evolution is not some kind of philosophical toy we can bring out occasionally for our interest or amusement. It radically affects every part of life. If the world is 'just there', if life is the result of a fascinating fluke, and if we ourselves are nothing more than biological accidents, we are faced with an avalanche of questions:
You can't. Our senses aren't perfect, so chance or not, you can't know what is true. You can only process your senses with an imperfect mind.If information came into being by chance, how can we know that anything is true?
It doesn't need to. It's a theory for Evolution, not logic. Evolution describes Evolution, not gravity or math.How can evolution account for the universal and invariable laws of logic, on which all our thinking depends? On what basis can we study the world in any coherent way and come to sensible conclusions about it.
I don't understand what he is getting at in the first question. The second question is something we don't have an answer to at the moment, but observations indicate that non living things can comprise living things.If the brain is nothing more than an accident of biological evolution, why should we trust it's ability to tell us so? How can chance accumulations of atoms and molecules decide that that is what they are?
We're not really much different from rocks and termites, though we're a lot smarter and more powerful. Since not much over powers us, we get to make the rules.How can shrink-wrapped bags of biological elements have any rights to justice, freedom, possessions or happiness - or even to life itself? What gives us any greater value than rocks or reptiles, trees or termites?
EvolutionHow did the products of a succession if generic flukes learn to remember the past, evaluate the present and wonder about the future?
Evolution. Yes I disagree with the last part of the quote.If we are what someone called 'computers made of meat', how did we acquire an aesthetic diminution, enabling us to appreciate beauty in nature and art, when doing this makes no contribution to evolution?
There is no purpose or meaning in life, and I've been happier since I realized that. I'm pretty much free to do what makes me happy.Why should we look for purpose or meaning in life? What is the sense Un genetically programmed machines talking about 'quality of life' and 'values', or concerning themselves with aims or aspirations?
EvolutionAs it is impossible to jump from atoms to ethics and from molecular to morality, why do we have an unbuilt sense of right and wrong? Where did conscience come from, and why does it have such amazing power? Why do we sometimes feel guilty or ashamed?
EvolutionWhy do we have a sense of obligation or responsibility to other people? Why should mere blobs of animate matter be concerned for the temporary well-being of other blobs if both are on their way to extinction?
My life is as meaningless as everyone else's. I'm not going to cry over it, I'm just going to go live it.How can we live - or die - with dignity if our existence is meaningless? Why do we take ourselves so seriously if Richard Dawkins is right to say that we are nothing but 'jumped-up apes'?
What about medicine? Killing off everyone sick isn't particularly helpful.If the survival of the fittest is evolution's greatest prize, why should we care for the frail, the mentally defective, the chronically sick, the senile, or the starving? Should we not give evolution a helping hand by getting rid of them - and the sooner the better?
If humans are no more than grown-up germs, why are we the only species preoccupied with death? Why should approaching it - or delaying it - be of the slightest concern to us? If we began as a fluke, live out of a farce and end as fertiliser, what hope or help can we give to someone who is dying?
Why is our sense of spirituality so strong that man has been called 'a religious animal'? Is this something we should expect to happen to dust left around for millions of years?
What about preaching and missionaries though? Doesn't that influence our decisions to a degree?
Obviously yes this will have some influence on what one thinks. But it's your choice about whether you want to listen to what they have to say or not, and it is their choice to preach it. Though I don't believe you should if the listener does not want to hear it.
Is actually quite interesting, because you have the choice; going to an insufferable eternity of pain and despair, or seek salvation from it by believing.
Freedom of choice people.
Everyone has a right to their opinion and there can be intelligent discussion sounding the existence of God.
Is actually quite interesting, because you have the choice; going to an insufferable eternity of pain and despair, or seek salvation from it by believing.
Freedom of choice people.
Is actually quite interesting, because you have the choice; going to an insufferable eternity of pain and despair, or seek salvation from it by believing.
Freedom of choice people.
I thought he was being sarcastic, maybe not dk