Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 626 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 17.9%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,059 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,052
Your missing the point. If vibrating strings have been vibrating for an eternal past, then it would require an actual infinite, which as I've described is absurd/impossible.
Although slightly unrelated to your point, the multiverse theory also requires a beginning according to the model brought forward by Arvind Borde, Anan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin.

"It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape: they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning." - Alexander Vilenkin

Yep, we are talking about a ex-nihilo. We are talking about an absolute a beginning here... Pretty amazing stuff.

No, the strings just exist outside of time. Afterall, God can, so anything can.


And therefor god is absurd/impossible.

We're done. Close the thread.

Exactly.
 
Exorcet
No, the strings just exist outside of time. Afterall, God can, so anything can.

Nope. Were not talking about strings, we are talking about the inevitable first cause. I am explaining why the first cause must have certain attributes which would be evident in a deity. If you want to rename this first cause as strings, then fine.

Again:
Immaterial
Immutable
Powerful
Transcendent

You can name whatever thing holds these traits whatever you want, the fact is that we have many attributes which we could assign to at least a deist God. As I've said, I have other arguments for other necessary traits this first cause has, but first I have to ground this argument.
 
Dennisch
Thus, infinite. Thus, absurd/impossible. Done. Close the thread.

Thus unchanging, thus nothing to change over time, thus timeless, thus no past.
Would you say that a change of 0 is infinite?
 
Thus unchanging, thus nothing to change over time, thus timeless, thus no past.
Would you say that a change of 0 is infinite?

Immutable = unchangeable.

Thus, my post still stands. Yours just toppled of the side of the flat earth, in the center of the universe.
 
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Dennisch
Immutable = unchangeable.

Thus, my post still stands. Yours just toppled over the side of the flat earth, in the center of the universe.

What point?

Yes, God is immutable or unchangeable in nature. How does this invalidate my argument in anyway?

If he does not have any change, then there would not be a series of events before creation. What's the problem?
 
What point?

Yes, God is immutable or unchangeable in nature. How does this invalidate my argument in anyway?

If he does not have any change, then there would not be a series of events before creation. What's the problem?

First post of the page holds the answer. You killed off your own arguments by saying infinite is absurd/impossible. And there is nothing you can say or do that can change it. Thus, we are done.
 
Dennisch
First post of the page holds the answer.

No, tell me what your objection is point by point.

Infinite in a succession to previous events? Yes. Potential infinite? No.
You clearly don't understand what immutable means.
 
No, tell me what your objection is point by point.

Infinite in a succession to previous events? Yes. Potential infinite? No.
You clearly don't understand what immutable means.

My google translation told me it's unchangeable.

But, that's not the point. God was infinite. And what did you say about things being infinite?
 
You know what is immutable or unchangeable? Nothing.

An immutable, unchangeable God would not be able to expend energy. To move. To think. To think requires change. Mutation. You know what has an immutable brain? An answering machine. Whatever you tell it, ask it or do, it will repeat the same pre-recorded thought over and over again. An immutable object has a value of zero. Immutability means that no light will ever be absorbed or emitted by it. That it can exchange no particles with the Universe, so it must have no gravity, or even mass. That it can not affect the Universe.

But I digress. You say God is immutable, thus, he is nothing. And much, much earlier in the thread, you had contended that the Universe could not have come from nothing. Thus, there is no God. /end thread.

-

But on a much more serious note... your argument returns to the prime cause or prime mover. Here's the question: Why must there be a prime mover? Science has already demonstrated that the concept of the absolutely indivisible (the Greek atomos) is false. That beneath the atom, there are the sub-atomic particles. Beneath these are quarks. Beneath the quarks, which is too far for us to peer underneath, it's possibly turtles all the way down. (that's an opinion)

Again, you're posting from a stance of un-knowledge: "Here there be DRAGONS" (or in your case, God), without having actually set sail to discover what lies over the horizon.
 
Dennisch
My google translation told me it's unchangeable.

But, that's not the point. God was infinite. And what did you say about things being infinite?

Read the context of my argument.

Actual infinite while in the context of numeracy, not potential. You can't get from 0 to infinity. Simple as. I didn't mean nothing more, or nothing less.
 
Read the context of my argument.

Actual infinite while in the context of numeracy, not potential. You can't get from 0 to infinity. Simple as. I didn't mean nothing more, or nothing less.

You know what is immutable or unchangeable? Nothing.

You say God is immutable, thus, he is nothing. And much, much earlier in the thread, you had contended that the Universe could not have come from nothing. Thus, there is no God. /end thread.


Again, you're posting from a stance of un-knowledge: "Here there be DRAGONS" (or in your case, God), without having actually set sail to discover what lies over the horizon.

.

And with that bombshell, I am done. Tankass, get out of the bible world, and step into the real world.
Nothing, and I mean nothing what you say holds anything. Nothing. You try to weasel yourself out of the discussion with new "facts", but all you do is derail yourself more and more. You don't want to hear what people with serious knowledge have to say. In your eyes everything is god, and everybody else is wrong.
Keep up that style of thinking, and you will get nowhere in life. Except the vatican, maybe.
 
Nope. Because he is immutable. God exists by the necessity of his own nature.

Nope. Were not talking about strings, we are talking about the inevitable first cause. I am explaining why the first cause must have certain attributes which would be evident in a deity. If you want to rename this first cause as strings, then fine.

Again:
Immaterial
Immutable
Powerful
Transcendent

You can name whatever thing holds these traits whatever you want, the fact is that we have many attributes which we could assign to at least a deist God. As I've said, I have other arguments for other necessary traits this first cause has, but first I have to ground this argument.

Are you even listening to yourself? So you're saying that, because we can't yet (and perhaps never will) understand how our universe came to be, there has to be an all powerful being that created it. That is your argument. But it is being based off nothing more than a guess. But you say it is right creating reasons that somehow "prove" what you're saying is right.

Your entire argument in a nutshell: Something has to have created the universe, but while being eternal, therefor God. But if someone brings up the perfectly legitimately point that God could not be eternal, you say (rather conveniently) that he has somehow always existed, that he just was. This is exactly like someone saying "I'm right because I am". Does that in fact make them right? No!

I'm not the greatest at putting my thoughts into words, so my argument could most definitely be a lot better, and I'm hoping other members that agree with me will help me to better word it.

Something I want to add, and correct me if I am wrong please, is that the entire argument that the universe can't be eternal rests upon time being linear. But if I am actually remembering something I have learned, and not just making crackpot theories, it's not, and in face works in weird ways. Again, I could very well be wrong, and have a feeling I am, so anyone that knows if I am or not, please inform me. :p

But I digress. The fact of the matter is that our way of thinking is quite constrained, there are many things we cannot understand, and in our race's infancy, we were still asking the same questions as we are now: how did all of this come to be here? what is out there? The difference between now and then is, now we have tools to help us find out, to understand, but back then we had very little, and the idea of a god(s) was an easy explanation, a convenient answer. And it is because of that, that we stuck with it, and why it (and religion) is still so prominent today.

And just something I want to add, my personal theory as to how our universe came to be:

Before our universe there was another universe, but as it cooled, expanded, and died, black holes formed throughout it, and eventually combined into one super-massive black hole (this may be completely impossible for all I know, but like I said, it is just my personal theory, my way of trying to understand the beginnings of our universe). This super-massive black hole—that now contained an entire universe in an infinitely small (not literally of course, it would just be damn small :lol:) amount of space, causing it to be unstable, which ultimately led to the big bang. The amount of energy within the black hole could no longer contain itself, exploding into what is our universe. As to how the universe before was formed, I don't know. It could have been the same process, which of course could lead to an infinite regression, or could lead to some other explanation that I, and humans, are unable to understand. But to me, just because I can't explain it, does not mean it was a god or gods (simply because the idea behind gods are that they created the entire universe, a vast expanse, just for one species out of billions that happen to inhabit a spec of dust among that ever expanding universe)
 
You know what is immutable or unchangeable? Nothing.

An immutable, unchangeable God would not be able to expend energy. To move. To think. To think requires change. Mutation. You know what has an immutable brain? An answering machine. Whatever you tell it, ask it or do, it will repeat the same pre-recorded thought over and over again. An immutable object has a value of zero. Immutability means that no light will ever be absorbed or emitted by it. That it can exchange no particles with the Universe, so it must have no gravity, or even mass. That it can not affect the Universe.



Again with restricting any God to the laws of science...
727917.gif
 
niky
You know what is immutable or unchangeable? Nothing.

An immutable, unchangeable God would not be able to expend energy. To move. To think. To think requires change. Mutation. You know what has an immutable brain? An answering machine. Whatever you tell it, ask it or do, it will repeat the same pre-recorded thought over and over again. An immutable object has a value of zero. Immutability means that no light will ever be absorbed or emitted by it. That it can exchange no particles with the Universe, so it must have no gravity, or even mass. That it can not affect the Universe.

But I digress. You say God is immutable, thus, he is nothing. And much, much earlier in the thread, you had contended that the Universe could not have come from nothing. Thus, there is no God. /end thread.

You haven't really disregarded anything, just your incapacity to comprehend an embedded mind. Again, think: Non-material. Ultimate reality, whatever you want to call it. In fact you don't have to even call it God, we haven't even shown that it has attributes witch we are presuming.

All I'm saying is that we are confronted with an absolute beginning which we have to face. This isn't a problem against God, this is a problem because you won't accept anything outside the realms of naturalism. Again: the uncaused cause.
niky
But on a much more serious note... your argument returns to the prime cause or prime mover. Here's the question: Why must there be a prime mover? Science has already demonstrated that the concept of the absolutely indivisible (the Greek atomos) is false. That beneath the atom, there are the sub-atomic particles. Beneath these are quarks. Beneath the quarks, which is too far for us to peer underneath, it's possibly turtles all the way down. (that's an opinion)

Again, you're posting from a stance of un-knowledge: "Here there be DRAGONS" (or in your case, God), without having actually set sail to discover what lies over the horizon.

We have to accept that something is eternal, or it would invalidate the 'out of nothing, nothing comes' rule (which I tend to think is a no Go). So:
Nature is eternal.

Or

(x) is eternal.

If nature is eternal, then as I've said, it would take an infinite amount of time to reach the present. Again, cause and effect mountain. You try and count back from 0 (the present) to infinity. -1 -2 -3... You'll never get there! So therefore, even without any scientific backing (which there is), we know there was an absolute beginning.
Sure, we can set sail and see what lies over the horizon, but then we reach another obstacle to climb over... and another. For the reasons I've given, I seem to believe that finitude is the only rational option.

You see, that's the real kicker: ex nihilo. You gotta' have something to get something! No free lunch!

I'm a mere layman (as is evident), but I can give you a resource to find interesting philosophy of the nature of God. Molinism is a really interesting concept. 👍
 
Again with restricting any God to the laws of science...
727917.gif

This is where what I said comes in..

God is an easy way out, an escape, from having to legitimately explain how the universe exists. It's mans' way of saying: "I don't know how to explain how the universe exists in terms of how the universe and everything in it actually works, therefor it is something that doesn't work how the universe works (because then it can be explained, sort of)."
 
Dennisch
.

And with that bombshell, I am done. Tankass, get out of the bible world, and step into the real world.
Nothing, and I mean nothing what you say holds anything. Nothing. You try to weasel yourself out of the discussion with new "facts", but all you do is derail yourself more and more. You don't want to hear what people with serious knowledge have to say. In your eyes everything is god, and everybody else is wrong.
Keep up that style of thinking, and you will get nowhere in life. Except the vatican, maybe.

I take your frustration as an indicator that the argument holds truth.
 
TankAss95
I take your frustration as an indicator that the argument holds truth.

^TheDrummingKING:
God of the gaps fallacy. Why are people so negative to the idea that there may be a deity? I give reasons why, and people seem to get frustrated.
 
^TheDrummingKING:
God of the gaps fallacy. Why are people so negative to the idea that there may be a deity? I give reasons why, and people seem to get frustrated.

No, you give your opinion as fact. And you don't want to see that.
 
^TheDrummingKING:
God of the gaps fallacy. Why are people so negative to the idea that there may be a deity? I give reasons why, and people seem to get frustrated.

The reason I don't believe it to be a deity, is because as we have began to understand and explain things in our universe, it starts to expose many things from many religions as wrong. So when I see that, it makes me doubt any of it (religious teachings) to be true, which then makes me doubt the idea of a deity altogether. If you are giving more reasons to doubt something then believe something, why still believe it?
 
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Again with restricting any God to the laws of science...
727917.gif

God is immutable, yet, according to the Bible, he can and does change his mind?

Anger is a sign of mutability.

Forgiveness is a sign of mutability.

Remorse is a sign of mutability. (After the flood)

The nature of God changes from the Old Testament to the New. (once monolithic, now a trinity).

If anything, God has proven pretty mutable. Thus, to call the Christian God immutable, if he exists, is a fallacy.

The only immutable thing is nothing. Immutable and unchangeable things don't move, don't exert effort and don't care.


I take your frustration as an indicator that the argument holds truth.

Arguing with my six year old is frustrating. :D

You're frustrating to argue with simply because you repeat the same things over and over again and refuse to defend your arguments properly.

This is the Opinions forum, after all, and the quality of an opinion is only as good as its supporting arguments.


You haven't really disregarded anything, just your incapacity to comprehend an embedded mind. Again, think: Non-material. Ultimate reality, whatever you want to call it. In fact you don't have to even call it God, we haven't even shown that it has attributes witch we are presuming.

So in other words, we have a Universal consciousness that we DON'T have to call God, and whose ATTRIBUTES we are completely unaware of.

Do you realize you've just denied the existence of God and have stated that there doesn't have to be one? If we don't have to call such Universal Consciousness "God", and since we can't attribute anything to it, then what purpose is there to arguing about it?


All I'm saying is that we are confronted with an absolute beginning which we have to face. This isn't a problem against God, this is a problem because you won't accept anything outside the realms of naturalism. Again: the uncaused cause.

All you're presuming is that there's an uncaused cause. Presumption =/= Truth.

We have to accept that something is eternal, or it would invalidate the 'out of nothing, nothing comes' rule (which I tend to think is a no Go). So:
Nature is eternal.

Or

(x) is eternal.

If nature is eternal, then as I've said, it would take an infinite amount of time to reach the present. Again, cause and effect mountain. You try and count back from 0 (the present) to infinity. -1 -2 -3... You'll never get there! So therefore, even without any scientific backing (which there is), we know there was an absolute beginning.

Uh. Why?

You have a basic misunderstanding of infinity. And of Time. Outside of the Universe, Time is irrelevant. There is no such thing as seconds, hours, days, years or megayears outside the Universe. Time is a construct of the nature of the Universe, so whether it takes an infinite amount of time or infinity minus one before the Universe begins is meaningless. Outside of the Universe, Time doesn't exist.

But... Time isn't infinite. It does have an absolute beginning. Which was... take a wild guess... yup. The beginning of the Universe.

Which, from the turtles analogy, is just the lowest turtle we can see.


You see, that's the real kicker: ex nihilo. You gotta' have something to get something! No free lunch!

Yes, you can. Vacuum energy. Virtual particles spontaneously generate out of "vacuum" all the time. The kicker is that eventually, the energy taken from these particles cancel out to zero.

The Universe itself meets the needs of this equation. At the end point of entropy, when all the stars have died out, all the black holes have evaporated due to proton decay (enabled by virtual particles spontaneously generating near black holes), and all particles in the Universe have likewise evaporated, the total energy sum of the Universe will be zero.

The Universe ain't a free lunch. 0 (beginnning) = 0 (ending). We're just that instantaneous bit of something living on the equals sign.

And TANSTAAFL contradicts the idea of God. If you can't get something from nothing, where do you get God from?


I'm a mere layman (as is evident), but I can give you a resource to find interesting philosophy of the nature of God. Molinism is a really interesting concept. 👍

Doesn't affect me in the slightest. The presence or absence of free will has no effect on the presence or absence of God.


Sure, we can set sail and see what lies over the horizon, but then we reach another obstacle to climb over... and another. For the reasons I've given, I seem to believe that finitude is the only rational option.

Translation: The pursuit of knowledge is too difficult, so I declare that this is as far as knowledge goes. That's pretty self-serving, don't you think?

This seems to be the entire push of your arguments. You don't like things this way, thus, from your point of view, it must be this other, totally arbitrary way. That's not rational argumentation. That's simply subjectivism.
 
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TheDrummingKING
The reason I don't believe it to be a deity, is because as we have began to understand and explain things in our universe, it starts to expose many things from many religions as wrong. So when I see that, it makes me doubt any of it (religious teachings) to be true, and makes me doubt the idea of a deity altogether. If you are giving more reasons to doubt something then believe something, why still believe it?

The existence of a deity is independent of religion, so I don't really think that makes sense. We sure do understand more and more as time progresses, but we really aren't any closer to the answer: why something rather than nothing? than before.
I have really thought about these things, researched a little, and I really do believe that God does exist. I can only try to give reasons why I think this, and that's what I'm trying to do.
 
The existence of a deity is independent of religion, so I don't really think that makes sense.

What makes you say that? Because it makes no sense... a deity exists because of religion.

Here is my current take on religion, especially ones of the "Book" - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...

They are nothing more than human narcissism, as they basically explain things as such - God created the world for us, made us in his image, gave his only son for us, created an afterlife for us, created guidelines for us to be there, and tells us what is correct and wrong.

A lot of "us" in there.

Now, you might defend that by saying it is because he so loved all his children/people/etc (basically us again). Which would make some sense till you realize it means the Americas, Australia, South Africa and Far East Asia, along with all the islands out there, were effectively neglected from his grace till the 1500 or so years after his son came to save us all.

Sounds like a pretty big hole in that "loves everyone" logic. Though at least the Mormons made some effort to get around that a bit with Alma and that, but even then, it is a huge problem with faiths that adhere to the "Book."

As for ethics and morals, I am fairly sure Hammarubi's code predates Moses and most aspects of God's word by a bit.
 
The existence of a deity is independent of religion, so I don't really think that makes sense. We sure do understand more and more as time progresses, but we really aren't any closer to the answer: why something rather than nothing? than before.
I have really thought about these things, researched a little, and I really do believe that God does exist. I can only try to give reasons why I think this, and that's what I'm trying to do.

Well actually, I think niky just answered that.

But about a deity being independent of religion, I suppose you are right in a sense. One can believe in a deity without being religious. But deities are simply something we humans have created to answer our questions that we could not find the answers to, giving me all the reason I need to doubt its actual existence.

And as Azureman said, religion does seem quite narcissistic. Especially when you consider that "us" (at least in regards to Christianity) specifically means white men. The Bible not only condones, but teaches us that blacks are less then whites, and they should be our slaves, and that women are inferior to men. Combining that all together, that doesn't entirely convince me of a God that "loves all his children equally".. :indiff:

The above paragraph is independent from the one before it, by the way. It has nothing to do with a deity =/= religion.
 
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God is immutable, yet, according to the Bible, he can and does change his mind?

Anger is a sign of mutability.

Forgiveness is a sign of mutability.

Remorse is a sign of mutability. (After the flood)

The nature of God changes from the Old Testament to the New. (once monolithic, now a trinity).

If anything, God has proven pretty mutable. Thus, to call the Christian God immutable, if he exists, is a fallacy.

The only immutable thing is nothing. Immutable and unchangeable things don't move, don't exert effort and don't care.


You're reading into it what you choose to.

He is infinite and there's nothing anyone can do to change that fact - can be one way to read "unchanging". He will always be who He is, is another, etc.
 
You're reading into it what you choose to.

He is infinite and there's nothing anyone can do to change that fact - can be one way to read "unchanging". He will always be who He is, is another, etc.

So let me sum up your argument then...

ouhoT.jpg
 
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