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- Dennisch
then it would require an actual infinite, which as I've described is absurd/impossible.
And therefor god is absurd/impossible.
We're done. Close the thread.
then it would require an actual infinite, which as I've described is absurd/impossible.
Your missing the point. If vibrating strings have been vibrating for an eternal past, then it would require an actual infinite, which as I've described is absurd/impossible.
Although slightly unrelated to your point, the multiverse theory also requires a beginning according to the model brought forward by Arvind Borde, Anan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin.
"It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape: they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning." - Alexander Vilenkin
Yep, we are talking about a ex-nihilo. We are talking about an absolute a beginning here... Pretty amazing stuff.
And therefor god is absurd/impossible.
We're done. Close the thread.
DennischAnd therefor god is absurd/impossible.
We're done. Close the thread.
Nope. Because he is immutable. God exists by the necessity of his own nature.
ExorcetNo, the strings just exist outside of time. Afterall, God can, so anything can.
DennischThus, infinite. Thus, absurd/impossible. Done. Close the thread.
Thus unchanging, thus nothing to change over time, thus timeless, thus no past.
Would you say that a change of 0 is infinite?
DennischImmutable = unchangeable.
Thus, my post still stands. Yours just toppled over the side of the flat earth, in the center of the universe.
What point?
Yes, God is immutable or unchangeable in nature. How does this invalidate my argument in anyway?
If he does not have any change, then there would not be a series of events before creation. What's the problem?
DennischFirst post of the page holds the answer.
No, tell me what your objection is point by point.
Infinite in a succession to previous events? Yes. Potential infinite? No.
You clearly don't understand what immutable means.
DennischMy google translation told me it's unchangeable.
But, that's not the point. God was infinite. And what did you say about things being infinite?
Read the context of my argument.
Actual infinite while in the context of numeracy, not potential. You can't get from 0 to infinity. Simple as. I didn't mean nothing more, or nothing less.
You know what is immutable or unchangeable? Nothing.
You say God is immutable, thus, he is nothing. And much, much earlier in the thread, you had contended that the Universe could not have come from nothing. Thus, there is no God. /end thread.
Again, you're posting from a stance of un-knowledge: "Here there be DRAGONS" (or in your case, God), without having actually set sail to discover what lies over the horizon.
Nope. Because he is immutable. God exists by the necessity of his own nature.
Nope. Were not talking about strings, we are talking about the inevitable first cause. I am explaining why the first cause must have certain attributes which would be evident in a deity. If you want to rename this first cause as strings, then fine.
Again:
Immaterial
Immutable
Powerful
Transcendent
You can name whatever thing holds these traits whatever you want, the fact is that we have many attributes which we could assign to at least a deist God. As I've said, I have other arguments for other necessary traits this first cause has, but first I have to ground this argument.
You know what is immutable or unchangeable? Nothing.
An immutable, unchangeable God would not be able to expend energy. To move. To think. To think requires change. Mutation. You know what has an immutable brain? An answering machine. Whatever you tell it, ask it or do, it will repeat the same pre-recorded thought over and over again. An immutable object has a value of zero. Immutability means that no light will ever be absorbed or emitted by it. That it can exchange no particles with the Universe, so it must have no gravity, or even mass. That it can not affect the Universe.
nikyYou know what is immutable or unchangeable? Nothing.
An immutable, unchangeable God would not be able to expend energy. To move. To think. To think requires change. Mutation. You know what has an immutable brain? An answering machine. Whatever you tell it, ask it or do, it will repeat the same pre-recorded thought over and over again. An immutable object has a value of zero. Immutability means that no light will ever be absorbed or emitted by it. That it can exchange no particles with the Universe, so it must have no gravity, or even mass. That it can not affect the Universe.
But I digress. You say God is immutable, thus, he is nothing. And much, much earlier in the thread, you had contended that the Universe could not have come from nothing. Thus, there is no God. /end thread.
nikyBut on a much more serious note... your argument returns to the prime cause or prime mover. Here's the question: Why must there be a prime mover? Science has already demonstrated that the concept of the absolutely indivisible (the Greek atomos) is false. That beneath the atom, there are the sub-atomic particles. Beneath these are quarks. Beneath the quarks, which is too far for us to peer underneath, it's possibly turtles all the way down. (that's an opinion)
Again, you're posting from a stance of un-knowledge: "Here there be DRAGONS" (or in your case, God), without having actually set sail to discover what lies over the horizon.
Again with restricting any God to the laws of science...![]()
Dennisch.
And with that bombshell, I am done. Tankass, get out of the bible world, and step into the real world.
Nothing, and I mean nothing what you say holds anything. Nothing. You try to weasel yourself out of the discussion with new "facts", but all you do is derail yourself more and more. You don't want to hear what people with serious knowledge have to say. In your eyes everything is god, and everybody else is wrong.
Keep up that style of thinking, and you will get nowhere in life. Except the vatican, maybe.
I take your frustration as an indicator that the argument holds truth.
TankAss95I take your frustration as an indicator that the argument holds truth.
^TheDrummingKING:
God of the gaps fallacy. Why are people so negative to the idea that there may be a deity? I give reasons why, and people seem to get frustrated.
^TheDrummingKING:
God of the gaps fallacy. Why are people so negative to the idea that there may be a deity? I give reasons why, and people seem to get frustrated.
Again with restricting any God to the laws of science...![]()
I take your frustration as an indicator that the argument holds truth.
You haven't really disregarded anything, just your incapacity to comprehend an embedded mind. Again, think: Non-material. Ultimate reality, whatever you want to call it. In fact you don't have to even call it God, we haven't even shown that it has attributes witch we are presuming.
All I'm saying is that we are confronted with an absolute beginning which we have to face. This isn't a problem against God, this is a problem because you won't accept anything outside the realms of naturalism. Again: the uncaused cause.
We have to accept that something is eternal, or it would invalidate the 'out of nothing, nothing comes' rule (which I tend to think is a no Go). So:
Nature is eternal.
Or
(x) is eternal.
If nature is eternal, then as I've said, it would take an infinite amount of time to reach the present. Again, cause and effect mountain. You try and count back from 0 (the present) to infinity. -1 -2 -3... You'll never get there! So therefore, even without any scientific backing (which there is), we know there was an absolute beginning.
You see, that's the real kicker: ex nihilo. You gotta' have something to get something! No free lunch!
I'm a mere layman (as is evident), but I can give you a resource to find interesting philosophy of the nature of God. Molinism is a really interesting concept. 👍
Sure, we can set sail and see what lies over the horizon, but then we reach another obstacle to climb over... and another. For the reasons I've given, I seem to believe that finitude is the only rational option.
TheDrummingKINGThe reason I don't believe it to be a deity, is because as we have began to understand and explain things in our universe, it starts to expose many things from many religions as wrong. So when I see that, it makes me doubt any of it (religious teachings) to be true, and makes me doubt the idea of a deity altogether. If you are giving more reasons to doubt something then believe something, why still believe it?
The existence of a deity is independent of religion, so I don't really think that makes sense.
The existence of a deity is independent of religion, so I don't really think that makes sense. We sure do understand more and more as time progresses, but we really aren't any closer to the answer: why something rather than nothing? than before.
I have really thought about these things, researched a little, and I really do believe that God does exist. I can only try to give reasons why I think this, and that's what I'm trying to do.
God is immutable, yet, according to the Bible, he can and does change his mind?
Anger is a sign of mutability.
Forgiveness is a sign of mutability.
Remorse is a sign of mutability. (After the flood)
The nature of God changes from the Old Testament to the New. (once monolithic, now a trinity).
If anything, God has proven pretty mutable. Thus, to call the Christian God immutable, if he exists, is a fallacy.
The only immutable thing is nothing. Immutable and unchangeable things don't move, don't exert effort and don't care.
You're reading into it what you choose to.
He is infinite and there's nothing anyone can do to change that fact - can be one way to read "unchanging". He will always be who He is, is another, etc.