Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Patrik
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 626 30.5%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 17.9%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,059 51.6%

  • Total voters
    2,052
Not at all. In fact, we destroy ourselves which is completely the opposite. Do a YouTube search for people having bad acid and MDMA trips... they all willingly did this. More specifically check out people having really bad trips on salvia, which only lasts a few minutes. They're terrified for 5-10 minutes then they come back to their 'logical' senses and repeat the whole thing all over again.

We're addicted to everything - money, food, drugs, vanity, etc. Logic itself is completely the opposite, and if it's true that everything is boiled down to some evolutionary survival mechanism then we are failures because we are then cognizant to the process itself and yet meet our demise by our own illogical and irrational choices.

That's actually a really good point. We aren't the smartest are we? :lol: I suppose you're right that we really aren't all that logical. In a way we are failures with the basic survival mechanism. But I'd say it's because we've made it so easy for ourselves to survive that we've ended up at things like those which you describe.


Okay first, my faith does not work that way. I have proof, and a lot of it. The problem everyone has with my proof is that it's subjective. But again, here's atheist's lack of logic at play...

The existence of God, since the beginning of mankind, has been more than a scientific pursuit... it has always involved the human spirit. Spiritual matters are inherently subjective, so to write off spiritual proof simply because it exists exactly as it should within that medium is illogical. It's not absurd that proof of God exists this way, it's just how it works. I've said this many times here.

Well, yes, you could think of it that way. But couldn't that also be thought of our natural yearning to belong—to have a purpose? It's fairly obvious that we do have that. Why else would we constantly be asking what the purpose or meaning of life is? The idea of a creator, creating us for a purpose is a comforting conclusion that I could see early mankind collectively coming to, hence organizing it into religion. Just so you know, by no means am I questioning your faith, or saying this is the reason for yours. I'm simply providing an alternative explanation to what you have said (mixed in with my opinion, yes, so I'm not stating it as a fact, just a theory).


I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here from human beings that rests again in the fact that we think nothing can exist beyond our own reasoning. God does not need you to present a strong argument on His behalf for Him to exist. History has shown this. How many Christians have committed atrocious acts and attributed them manipulatively to their faith? That didn't actually do anything at all to discredit God's character. It was reflective of the people themselves, nothing more.

Again, to use something like the Crusades as an argument against the existence of God is irrational, and ironic if done so by a person claiming to tout logic and objectivity.

As true as this is, it's still not exactly proof for God either.


Likewise.

:cheers:
 
God does not need you to present a strong argument on His behalf for Him to exist.

Does for me.

I'll describe this as easy as I can think here, so bare with me.

If I told you monkeys can fly, would you believe me without seeing it for yourself? Probably not.

Same idea. "If I cannot see, I cannot believe".

No need to argue this point, just adding my 2 cents.

Carry on. :)
 
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Just sayin'...
 
OK. I'll take a closer look at this, but for the meantime, time for another argument! :sly: :dunce:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.

Okay, stop right there. This is not true.

First of all, this "everything has a cause" is what led to the idea of the deterministic "clockwork" universe that the 19th century physicists were so fond of, and has been shown to be inaccurate. Yeah, it mostly works, much as Newtonian mechanics mostly works in everyday experience. But it's not always true, much as Newtonian mechanics are incorrect at velocities which are appreciable fractions of the speed of light.

Consider virtual particles, which pop into existence for no reason, annihilate each other (they're created in pairs) and pop out of existence again. Nothing actually causes them to do this; it happens because there is no reason for them not to. Or why a radioactive atom decides to emit a beta particle at one particular time and not another. Yes in large numbers we can predict how many atoms will decay in a given amount of time, but there is no way of knowing when any one particular atom will decay.

Basically randomness and chaos theory invalidates universal causality.

2. The universe began to exist.
3. The universe has a cause.

1: Something can't come from nothing. The claim that something came into being from nothing is worse than magic! In order to deny this premise, you have to think that the whole universe came into being at some point in the past out of nothing, but does anyone sincerely believe this?

Yes, actually; me for one. As well as a lot of physicists.

Plus, if something can come into being from nothing, then why doesn't anything or everything else spontaneously come into being too? Why don't bicycles and Beethoven and beer just pop in and out of existence I'll the time?!
But what about God? Does he need a cause? Well things don't need a cause if they never begin to exist, simple as that. Something eternal wouldn't need a cause, since it never came into being.

So you're saying that God is eternal, and has always existed. Or, to paraphrase, God has existed for an infinite amount of time. We'll come back to this.

Another point: Common experience and scientific evidence confirms the truth of the first premise. Premise 1 is constantly verified and never falsified.

Common experience, and scientific evidence until near the end of the 19th Century, also confirmed Newtonian mechanics. Common experience confirms your first premise, but scientific evidence invalidates it.

2: This is the most controversial premise of this argument - why isn't the universe just infinite? Well first an infinite amount of things cannot exist. A man called Al Ghazali argued that an infinite number of things cannot exist. Now, this needs to be properly understood, a potential infinity can exist, but an actual infinity can't. What's the difference? Well when we mean that something is potentially infinite, it means that the infinity serves merely as an ideal limit that is never reached. For example, you could divide any finite distance in half, and then into fourths, and then into eights, and then into sixteenths, and so on to infinity (this has been mentioned in the philosophy theory thread, thanks for bringing it up whoever it was 👍 ). The number of divisions is potentially infinite, but you'll never actually arrive at an "infinitieth" division. You'd never actually have an infinite number of parts or divisions - infinity is an endless goal.

So motion is impossible, you're saying. Say you want to travel from one place to another. To get there, you first have to get to the halfway point. To get to the halfway point, you first have to go a quarter of the way. before you can go a quarter of the way, you have to go one eighth of the way, and so on, ad infinitum. As a theoretical matter, we can take this infinite number of steps. By your logic here, as a practical matter we cannot because infinity is an endless goal and it has just been shown that an endless number of steps are required (do not confuse "steps" in this context with "footsteps", by the way).

So we don't really have a problem with the existence of potential infinites - for these are just ideal limits. But when we come to an actual infinite, we are dealing with a collection that is not growing toward infinity as a limit but is already complete: The number of members already in the collection is greater than any finite number. If actual infinites exist, then a number of absurdities would result.
So basically an infinite past is implausible, because it would take an infinite amount of time to get to the present tense (according to my useless mathematical skills :P ).

Okay, since God is infinitely old by your own definition, God is equally implausible (I said I'd get back to this).

But it's not just philosophy, all scientific evidence points towards an absolute beginning.

3. As I have explained above, we can now conclude that the universe has a cause.

Nope. It may have a cause, or it may not. Personally I feel we may never know, and this in fact may turn out to be unknowable. But I'm not comfortable with postulating the existence of a God to have done it; if anything, that just shows a lack of imagination as well as reliance on an ancient crutch that has been shown to be invalid time after time. "Mommy, why is it raining?" "Because God makes it rain". No, we can now describe in ponderous detail why it rains, and when it will happen. Yeah, too bad that sometimes doesn't quite get to the 7 O'clock News but oh well. :)
 
The existence of a deity is independent of religion, so I don't really think that makes sense.

Not to derail the conversation that's going on here, but I have to address this.

Just a couple pages ago Tank, I corrected you on your incorrect use of the word "atheism" for about the 20th time in this thread. You declared that you would continue to use the word "atheism" in the same manner anyways, out of "convenience."

But a couple pages later, you jump on somebody who was using the word "religion" as a convenient term for "believing in god."

The irony in that is just but one small example of the overall flaw in your arguments: you hold your beliefs to a different standard than the ones you argue against. To wit:

-It's OK for you to substitute "atheist" for "actively denying god's existence," but not OK for somebody to substitute "religion" for "belief in god."

-It's OK to say that the universe can't be infinite because that would be "absurd," but not OK to apply that same standard to god's supposed infinite nature.

-It's OK to say that the universe must have a cause, but not OK to extend that and say that god must have a cause.

I could probably find more if I felt like digging back through 300 pages, but I don't think I need to. I don't think I'm alone in seeing these massively self-serving inconsistencies in your methods.
 
Err.. It does. He looked for proof and found it. That was your point in the first place wasn't it?

You guys are taking it way to seriously and knew what I meant. Think: monkeys that can fly on their own. :rolleyes:

Quit looking for a way out.
 
Err.. It does. He looked for proof and found it. That was your point in the first place wasn't it?

Of course. And humans can fly too. I regularly see people flapping their arms and taking off completely unaided.

Oh no, wait...
 
Of course. And humans can fly too. I regularly see people flapping their arms and taking off completely unaided.

Oh no, wait...

I can fly. (if I'm in an Airplane) as can an Ape (in a rocket thing) :sly:

Sorry if I've gone and got the wrong end of the stick on this. :dunce:
 
This is entirely false.

Men can indeed fly. Have you forgotten his Airness Michael Jordan?

Man he should dunk on all of you as punishment.
 
Still not ringing a bell.

Don't feed the troll.


As for the subject, I don't believe in god but I'm not sure about the afterlife. It would be awesome if it was true the Indian belief of experiencing different lifeforms without the karma and good deeds stuff though. The big question then would be if the memory persists and if it can be unlocked. :drool:
 
As for the subject, I don't believe in god but I'm not sure about the afterlife. It would be awesome if it was true the Indian belief of experiencing different lifeforms without the karma and good deeds stuff though. The big question then would be if the memory persists and if it can be unlocked. :drool:
Level Up!
 
Last word on this subject:

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Okay, so maybe it's more "falling... with style..." but this is the gist of it. Claims require proof, and the proof has to match the claim.

-

RE: Afterlife and reincarnation. There are many claims for it, and much documentation on anecdotal evidence, but nothing that can be concretely demonstrated.

And in a few cases... claims of reincarnation, especially amongst Tibetan children reputed to be reincarnated spiritual leaders... have been shown to be hoaxes.
 
Last word on this subject:



Okay, so maybe it's more "falling... with style..." but this is the gist of it. Claims require proof, and the proof has to match the claim.

That's still not what I'm talking about. Should a moderator really come off as being a troll? Cause that's what I'm seeing here, and it's quite unfortunate. :ouch:
 
That's still not what I'm talking about. Should a moderator really come off as being a troll? Cause that's what I'm seeing here, and it's quite unfortunate. :ouch:


Agree. Maybe 'troll' is not the correct wording, but it's like suddenly because he'd had enough he starts resorting to gifs. Interesting way to leave an intellectual debate.

It has been repeatedly said in this thread that however inconvenient, much evidence for God is related to spirituality, an area interpreted subjectively. Over and over this is continually brushed aside, but there are many truths one knows in life through subjective interpretation, not just the existence of God.

 

It has been repeatedly said in this thread that however inconvenient, much evidence for God is related to spirituality, an area interpreted subjectively. Over and over this is continually brushed aside, but there are many truths one knows in life through subjective interpretation, not just the existence of God.


Change "truths one knows" to "conclusions one arrives at" and I can agree with that. It doesn't matter how utterly convinced you are of something, your conviction alone doesn't make it so. You still need real evidence.


Agree. Maybe 'troll' is not the correct wording, but it's like suddenly because he'd had enough he starts resorting to gifs. Interesting way to leave an intellectual debate.

I don't recall him or anybody else posting any gifs in here recently. Perhaps you're using "gif" as a generic term (incorrectly) for "picture" or "image"?
 
Change "truths one knows" to "conclusions one arrives at" and I can agree with that. It doesn't matter how utterly convinced you are of something, your conviction alone doesn't make it so. You still need real evidence.


It doesn't matter how many times you say that, you will never refute the fact that subjectivity does not negate truth.

And how many times will people contradict themselves in this thread with basically this very same comment, yet when someone says that God is the source of morality they brush it off with subjective evidence as if it was the truth. Eg: "Hitler thought it was perfectly okay do do what he did." Your interpretation of Hitler's conscience is purely speculative, yet you interpret it as factual evidence to refute someone else's argument for where morality comes from? Subjective is subjective is subjective.





I don't recall him or anybody else posting any gifs in here recently. Perhaps you're using "gif" as a generic term (incorrectly) for "picture" or "image"?


Pics, yes.
 

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