2008 Best Car Series: Nissan GT-R vs Lotus Exige 240 S

[nd 4 holden spd]

Read it, love it, understand it. These are the cars of the promised land, the cars that America has been deprived of for far too long...

Suit yourself, IMO USA has had cars with good character for years.......just like the rest of the world, each country has its advantages.

 

[McLaren]

Can you show me an example of a car? I can't think of any car that has your theory

You might need to actually drive these cars, or read quite a few articles on them to understand what folks are referring to. This Alfa Romeo Spider was a good one I remember reading about.

 

[Muzaffar]

Can you show me an example of a car? I can't think of any car that has your theory

Need more proof?

 

[gator of kana]

I think I got it, the cars are old so they don't have hardly any technology, with hardly any technology you have to do more, you know that you are doing the work and not the car, like having a roadster and to take the roof down you have to do it by hand like an opel speedster

 

[McLaren]

I think I got it, the cars are old so they don't have hardly any technology, with hardly any technology you have to do more, you know that you are doing the work and not the car, like having a roadster and to take the roof down you have to do it by hand like an opel speedster

The roof example isn't exactly what we're talking about, heh, I think you've got the idea. 👍

 

[gator of kana]

The roof example isn't exactly what we're talking about, heh, I think you've got the idea. 👍

Hoorah!!! I still love technology though

 

[Blackbird.]

Sounds like you guys are describing "attitude". I guess that's what I know it by.

 

[McLaren]

Sounds like you guys are describing "attitude". I guess that's what I know it by.

Attitude's kind of a strong word to describe how a car feels to drive. Unless, to me, the car feels like it has to be constantly man-handled to be driven at even the most leisurely of paces.

 

[niky]

It's nothing against new cars, but I just don't see the same type of soul in newer cars than the older ones. It might be all the technology, but they just don't feel the same. An E36 M3 is fun, and it makes me want to thrash it. My 5 just doesn't deliver the same feeling, nor did the 3. I mean, sure they can be fun, but I think there's a line between a fun car & a car that has a soul.

Maybe I just haven't driven enough new cars.

It's not just those cars... most everything nowadays is an anodyne driving experience... electric steering makes for very transparent... feel-less... handling, electronic throttle mapping makes for very linear power delivery, with no quirks of torque spikes, bogging... etcetera... you know how a car accelerates better at some rpms at part throttle than full throttle? electronic throttles will fix that for you...

Everything is boosted, mediated, controlled, etcetera... everywhere, even amongst "purist" manufacturers like BMW and Mazda... the first generation Mazda6 was a wonderful car... you could feel all four wheels working at the ground, the steering was spot-on perfect (as perfect as a hydraulic rack could be) and the feeling of connectedness to the road was immense... YSSMAN's illustration was a good example of comparing a car with "soul" to a car that's just a car. But the new 6 has lost some of the immediacy of the old 6 thanks to modernity... it's still better than 99% of the competition in terms of driving appeal, but it's just not the same.

That, ironically, is why I'm not willing to slight the GT-R... not at least until I've driven it... without driving it, how do we know if it lacks soul compared to the competition? Especially when the competition has PASM, magnetically controlled ride, variable-ratio electric steering, etcetera... Some people complain about the digital nature of the GT-R, but others praise its immediacy and edginess.

 

[gator of kana]

It's not just those cars... most everything nowadays is an anodyne driving experience... electric steering makes for very transparent... feel-less... handling, electronic throttle mapping makes for very linear power delivery, with no quirks of torque spikes, bogging... etcetera... you know how a car accelerates better at some rpms at part throttle than full throttle? electronic throttles will fix that for you...

Everything is boosted, mediated, controlled, etcetera... everywhere, even amongst "purist" manufacturers like BMW and Mazda... the first generation Mazda6 was a wonderful car... you could feel all four wheels working at the ground, the steering was spot-on perfect (as perfect as a hydraulic rack could be) and the feeling of connectedness to the road was immense... YSSMAN's illustration was a good example of comparing a car with "soul" to a car that's just a car. But the new 6 has lost some of the immediacy of the old 6 thanks to modernity... it's still better than 99% of the competition in terms of driving appeal, but it's just not the same.

That, ironically, is why I'm not willing to slight the GT-R... not at least until I've driven it... without driving it, how do we know if it lacks soul compared to the competition? Especially when the competition has PASM, magnetically controlled ride, variable-ratio electric steering, etcetera... Some people complain about the digital nature of the GT-R, but others praise its immediacy and edginess.

To tell you the truth, Technology is suppose to make the driver feel confident to drive the car even more to the limit, to push performance to the next level, there are things other than technology to make things more advanced and better for example there are now bucket seats as standard, in old cars they didn't have that.

 

[McLaren]

To tell you the truth, Technology is suppose to make the driver feel confident to drive the car even more to the limit, to push performance to the next level

There's nothing wrong with that. But, due to the techno gizmos, they do interfere with how a car really reacts to you because the computers are keeping the car steady.

Hell, if I could, I would easily disable the computers in my TL. It's fun to drive, but the computers I can feel working do disrupt me from feeling how the car truly drives.

 

[Blackbird.]

Hell, if I could, I would easily disable the computers in my TL. It's fun to drive, but the computers I can feel working do disrupt me from feeling how the car truly drives.

+1

If there's a TC button or some kind of 'control' button I like pushing them... to turn them off. I see stuff like TC and the like as a commodity for everyday driving to keep you safe. As far as driving a car to it's limits I think it as suffocating the car.

 

[gator of kana]

+1

If there's a TC button or some kind of 'control' button I like pushing them... to turn them off. I see stuff like TC and the like as a commodity for everyday driving to keep you safe. As far as driving a car to it's limits I think it as suffocating the car.

There are current cars out there that doesn't use much technology to be fast

This current Honda Civic Type R is now faster than a Honda S2000 and is also faster than a R34 Skyline and it doesn't have hardly any technology, it's just like the NSX-R

 

[Blackbird.]

True some cars don't have the fancy technology. But for example in the mustang in my signature. When it's TC is on it hinders me in performing certain maneuvers. Which is not the car doing that in my opinion. Yes it's the computer on the car doing it but... I hope you get what I mean.

 

[gator of kana]

True some cars don't have the fancy technology. But for example in the mustang in my signature. When it's TC is on it hinders me in performing certain maneuvers. Which is not the car doing that in my opinion. Yes it's the computer on the car doing it but... I hope you get what I mean.

I do, the traction control and stablity management keeps the car from doing those maneuvers

 

[Rotary Junkie]

True some cars don't have the fancy technology. But for example in the mustang in my signature. When it's TC is on it hinders me in performing certain maneuvers. Which is not the car doing that in my opinion. Yes it's the computer on the car doing it but... I hope you get what I mean.

Yes but be glad it isn't a 2005-up model... The traction control can be "defeated" but it'll still take the throttle away to prevent wheelspin.

I do, the traction control and stablity management keeps the car from doing those maneuvers

Noo... You aren't getting it.

Not quite at least.

 

[GT Pro]

Easy, the GTR - it's more revolutionary than the evolutionary Exige.
However, it could have been that so much better if they had focused more time on trimming its weight; 1740kg for any uber-sports/supercar is just rediculous, especially in this day and age where we should be dropping the kilos, not adding them (but then nowadays we have mandatory safety systems to worry about).

 

[Jim Prower]

(but then nowadays we have mandatory safety systems to worry about).

You hit one of the nails on the head. I'm also guessing the GT-R's price point kept it from using a whole lot of expensive materials in the body and chassis, and that Nissan wanted a "midsize" interior in the car, in keeping with GT-R tradition.

Otherwise, the Engineers got to make the thing as wide as they wanted...and ended up with a big car.

 

[Philly]

I do, the traction control and stablity management keeps the car from doing those maneuvers

I guess it really depends on the skill level of the driver. Not as experienced drivers will certainly want that safety net because they don't trust their own skills enough. I've had a few times where I've felt the car starting to go sideways but was happy when I felt the rear end lurch back behind the fronts. And it's also very helpful on my favorite road where there are several pavement changes midcorner. For these people, the GT-R will probably be perfectly acceptable to drive.

However, much better drivers will feel more comfortable being the only one piloting their car. They don't want something to jump in and spoil their fun because the car thought it was in trouble, when it clearly wasn't.

 

[homeforsummer]

This 1st generation Impreza has always had engine trouble when was pushed to the limit for a few minutes, the engine was powerful but couldn't handle the power

The first-gen Impreza was instrumental in Subaru being one of the most reliable car makes of the late 90s. It certainly wasn't an unreliable car, quite the opposite. Engine trouble would be more down to poor maintanance.

without driving it, how do we know if it lacks soul compared to the competition?

I think it's fair to assum the GT-R lacks soul - for one, and although I don't worship at his altar, Clarkson seemed to think the car lacked soul. Beside something like the 911 it doesn't have the iconic shape, the character etc.

Can I just highlight that this thread has gone pretty far off topic? The last half dozen pictures and couple of pages have had very little to do with the Exige or GT-R

 

[Famine]

The fact that the DVLA registers the car's option packages in the car's title doesn't make it a different car.

Aaah, yes it does. The DVLA registers make, then model, then trim. It's what appears in their database and on the top of your vehicle registration certificate.

Quick example - my cars:
Make: Ford
Model: Mondeo
Trim: ST220

Make: Mazda
Model: MX-3
Trim: V6

Make: Mazda
Model: MX-5
Trim: 1.8i Berkeley

This car:
Make: Lotus
Model: Exige
Trim: S Tour & Sports

If it were a genuine 240S, it'd say:
Make: Lotus
Model: Exige
Trim: 240S

If you could find a genuine picture of a genuine 240S, I'll happily run the plates for you to show you.

As an additional note, the Exige 240S has no emissions data, and is taxed at the old over-1.6 tax rate (£185pa). This car has a 216g/km rating, and is taxed at the rate appropriate to it (£210pa), as shown by the DVLA search.

I'm not unsure what model it is, I know it is a S 240.

Et la.

The rest of this topic made me chuckle. You folks arguing about the role of technology in the driving experience and "soul" of a vehicle do realise you're comparing two cars, right? They're not exactly organic products...

 

[homeforsummer]

The rest of this topic made me chuckle. You folks arguing about the role of technology in the driving experience and "soul" of a vehicle do realise you're comparing two cars, right? They're not exactly organic products...

To be fair, I've come across a number of organic products with less soul than a lot of cars...

 

[Famine]

Gordon Brown.

I was referring more to the fact that people are talking about technology and how it's bad/good that one has more/less than the other. Here are two cars. Cars. Made from man-made alloys and materials, using computerised processes...

 

[Blackbird.]

Et la.

The rest of this topic made me chuckle. You folks arguing about the role of technology in the driving experience and "soul" of a vehicle do realise you're comparing two cars, right? They're not exactly organic products...

I wasn't even talking about the GT-R or the Exige.

Oh you're being literal? You don't understand what we mean by the soul of a car?

 

[homeforsummer]

I was referring more to the fact that people are talking about technology and how it's bad/good that one has more/less than the other. Here are two cars. Cars. Made from man-made alloys and materials, using computerised processes...

True, but I'd argue that an old classic, such as the Alfa Giulia someone posted a pic of, does have a certain "soul" to it. It may be a mechanical object but the curves, the smell of old vinyl or leather, wood, the noise it makes, the patina of age, the history behind it - all contribute to a more "soulful" car than a modern, gizmo-laden car. As a devout atheist nothing has an actual "soul" to me so I find it easy (if anything, even more easy than to apply it to people) to apply the word to cars, steam engines, iron bridges and other works of engineering.

 

[Famine]

I wasn't even talking about the GT-R or the Exige.

I must have been confused by the thread title.

Oh you're being literal? You don't understand what we mean by the soul of a car?

See the answer directly above your post, where I clarify that I'm talking about arguing over technology in cars.

 

[Blackbird.]

I must have been confused by the thread title.



See the answer directly above your post, where I clarify that I'm talking about arguing over technology in cars.

Clearly you haven't.

I'm sure I make absolutely no sense to you but I'm talking about a certain technology in a car that restricts it from doing what it would normally do without those electronics. Yes, obviously it takes technology to run and balance almost everything in a car but I am narrowing the electronics to one area. That which is the electronics like Traction Control, Stability control, blah blah blah.

 

[Jim Prower]

The Stability control in the GT-R is fully defeatable...but the ATTESSA-ETS system, with it's moving torque, is not. It's the advanced AWD system that you have the beef with, and many sports cars are heading that direction. Audi, Lambo, Porsche...granted, the Japanese did it their way...(remember, these people idolize robots, Honda having made a very advanced one, and are very good with electronics)...and it's not "traditional," but you've gotta ask yourself...do you prefer automotive technology to advance, or do you stick with tradition?

or are we still beating around the GT-R's image problem?

 

[exigeracer]

AU08CSX
AH12
GN08KFD
WX08CWP
YJ55UUA

Should we cancel the vote because no S 240 exist at all?

The pictured car in post #1 is a Lotus Exige S 240.

 

[Famine]

AU08CSX - Lotus Exige 240S Perf & Sport
AH12 - Lotus Exige 240S Perf & Tour & Sport
GN08KFD - Lotus Exige S Tour+
WX08CWP - Lotus Exige 240S Perf & Touring
YJ55UUA - Lotus Exige Sports

It's worth a note that these are all official Lotus trim levels as sold in the UK. The S Tour+ is a 220hp car and the Exige Sports is a 189hp car.

Should we cancel the vote because no S 240 exist at all?

That would be silly, seeing as the car does exist in six trim levels in the UK (with the additional Exige S British GT getting the 240 engine also).

The pictured car in post #1 is a Lotus Exige S 240.

Lotus don't agree with you, or they would have registered the car, as new, with the DVLA as a "Lotus Exige 240S", like they did with three of the five vehicles you posted. Instead, they registered it as a 220hp Lotus Exige S Sports & Touring (an official Lotus trim level as sold in the UK).

The more adamant you get about it simply cements the fact that even you, someone who loves the car, cannot tell some variations apart even when presented with quite clear data that show the company who built it and the official register of all UK vehicles do not agree with you.