2009 Grand Prix de Monaco

[Tired Tyres]

Toyota can build decent cars, but never versatile ones. They always have an Achilles Heel that sends them to the back at certain types of tracks - which ones precisely changes from year to year.



So much for loyalty, eh?



Yeah, he's so annoying. Him, and DC's ramblings on how KERS caused the Massa and Hamilton mistakes - Hamilton was way off line anyway, and Massa lost it before the braking zone...



He came out of bloody nowhere. Faster in Q3 than in Q2, so god knows how many laps he's got to build a lead...

20 according to Ross Brawn when asked by the BBC pit reporter.

 

[Robin]

I felt that the BBC coverage has improved somewhat but it still seems like cabaret on a boat... a bit too relaxed for my liking but the intro in the vintage merc was a nice touch.

Also they are starting to talk about Button too much like ITV did with Hamilton, really shows some people are just glory supporters. Yes he is a UK driver and it is a UK audience but people do get tired about hearing about him.

Interesting theory Eddie had about all the Kers cars might have problems on this circuit because of the way the battery charges under braking, hence Hamilton and Massa loosing the rear end.

All in all seems like it could be a good race tomorrow but I do really wish it would rain (unlikely) because it produces some amazing races. Its very likely the Button will lead from start to finish.

Robin.

 

[Stevisiov]

Yeah, he's so annoying. Him, and DC's ramblings on how KERS caused the Massa and Hamilton mistakes - Hamilton was way off line anyway, and Massa lost it before the braking zone...

Yep, although i can stand DC I think he's aright. Eddie is far more irritating when he moans about KERS and the likes.

He came out of bloody nowhere. Faster in Q3 than in Q2, so god knows how many laps he's got to build a lead...

20 laps worth. A bit short really.

 

[Mr P]

I honestly think there is something illegal in this damn Brawn car that has yet to be discovered I mean ... from 2 zero's to 2 hero's in a matter of months all because this team appears is just too much for me to take in! I've been watching F1 since the mid 80's and this is just crazy dominance.

I really hope it goes under severe scrutiny again as I can't see nothing to say its driver skill! I just hear foul play bells ringing in the back of my head and it's looks like they sandbag until the final laps also 2 hasbeens on top of the world of F1 haha ... sorry I just can't see it?

Just my thoughts guys! .. feel free to put your 2c in on this

 

[Metar]

Who knows then. Jenson might be getting the "Plan B" treatment from Ross then...

 

[Blake]

I honestly think there is something illegal in this damn Brawn car that has yet to be discovered I mean ... from 2 zero's to 2 hero's in a matter of months all because this team appears is just too much for me to take in!

They’d been developing the car for months longer than anyone else. It’s not really surprising if you look at the development that had been put into it. I have no doubts about its legality though.

 

[Mr P]

They’d been developing the car for months longer than anyone else. It’s not really surprising if you look at the development that had been put into it. I have no doubts about its legality though.

how long is that mate? did all the other teams hold back and piss off on world cruises whilst these guys created the perfect race car?

what about the drivers though ... are they just that good? haha

 

[Stevisiov]

What are the performance differences between the two tyres on this race? 20 laps suggests a sizeable performance difference. 20 laps on one tyre, 58 on the other.

Perhaps it is just a compromise to start ahead of the pack, but that seems odd because its very likely Kimi will KERS past at the start anyway.

I guess we will see.

 

[Blake]

how long is that mate? did all the other teams hold back and piss off on world cruises whilst these guys created the perfect race car?

Other teams were competing at the front, developing the cars they were racing, while Brawn decided not to touch their old car and just concentrate on the 2009 car. Ferrari and McLaren are slow particularly because they spent so much time last year developing their 08 cars to fight for the championship.

what about the drivers though ... are they just that good? haha

I think Jenson is pretty good. He’s not a mega star, but he’s more than competent. Rubens is aggressive and on his day is mega, but unless everything is perfect he’s not fantastic.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

how long is that mate? did all the other teams hold back and piss off on world cruises whilst these guys created the perfect race car?

Nope. They concentrated on the 2008 season. When Ross Brawn first joined Honda, he knew there was a unique opportunity at hand: the overhaul of the regulations meant that everyone would be starting from the proverbial Square One, and that any data gathered in 2008 would be useless. So his advice was to sacrifice the 2008 championship (the car was nothing stellar to begin with, so it's doubtful they would have made much progress anyway) and start focusing on their 2009 contender. But then Honda withdrew and Brawn acquired their holdings, and the rest, as they say, is history. They knew they were onto something good from the beginning, but they were surprised not at how quick they were in pre-season testing, but at how slow everyone else was. That's why they're the class act of 2009: they knuckled down and did the work, not through some illegal aerodynamic device.

what about the drivers though ... are they just that good? haha

Button is actually one of the smoothest drivers on the grid in terms of driving style. If you watch him, you'll see the way he only ever turns in a much as he needs, and he takes every corner with one flowing move. A lot of the other drivers will correct themselves in the middle of the corner, but Button gives it just enough to follow through, which is what makes him so much smoother and so much quicker. He's like quicksilver. The problem is that until now - and aside from 2004, but everyone might have been towing caravans then compared to Ferrari - he's never really had a good car under him. Renault's Pat Symonds has said Button is every bit as good as Hamilton, but he doesn't have the hardware.

 

[Blake]

What are the performance differences between the two tyres on this race?

The tyres are the soft and super-soft, so this is the only race of the year where there isn’t a gap between the two compounds. The performance and endurance differences won’t be particularly big, so I don’t expect strange strategies like in Spain.

 

[Metar]

how long is that mate? did all the other teams hold back and piss off on world cruises whilst these guys created the perfect race car?

what about the drivers though ... are they just that good? haha

Well, the others had half-decent racecars in 2008, and worked on them for a long time. Honda, however, realized their 2008 car was utter ****, and devoted all their resources into the new 2009 cars. McLaren, for example, were busy spending £7.5m just on getting Hamilton a new front wing for Brazil - and only started working full-time on the 2009 car after that.

What are the performance differences between the two tyres on this race? 20 laps suggests a sizeable performance difference. 20 laps on one tyre, 58 on the other.

At Monaco Bridgestone made an exception - Softs and Supersofts, instead of Supersofts and Mediums - so the difference is small. At the same time, the supersofts manage to hold well for three hotlaps on the trot...

 

[Mr P]

Fair point about the top teams working on last years car and Brawn this years as I never considered that part 👍

Both drivers are good imo but never in a month of sundays would I have guessed they were a match for the top 25% of drivers on the grid at the moment and these guys are truncing them race after race? Maybe its the way of the new F1 world but its all too fast and too crazy to be true for me

Thanks for your views guys!
Ron.

 

[Stevisiov]

Nope. They concentrated on the 2008 season. When Ross Brawn first joined Honda, he knew there was a unique opportunity at hand: the overhaul of the regulations meant that everyone would be starting from the proverbial Square One, and that any data gathered in 2008 would be useless. So his advice was to sacrifice the 2008 championship (the car was nothing stellar to begin with, so it's doubtful they would have made much progress anyway) and start focusing on their 2009 contender. But then Honda withdrew and Brawn acquired their holdings, and the rest, as they say, is history. They knew they were onto something good from the beginning, but they were surprised not at how quick they were in pre-season testing, but at how slow everyone else was. That's why they're the class act of 2009: they knuckled down and did the work, not through some illegal aerodynamic device.

Button is actually one of the smoothest drivers on the grid in terms of driving style. If you watch him, you'll see the way he only ever turns in a much as he needs, and he takes every corner with one flowing move. A lot of the other drivers will correct themselves in the middle of the corner, but Button gives it just enough to follow through, which is what makes him so much smoother and so much quicker. He's like quicksilver. The problem is that until now - and aside from 2004, but everyone might have been towing caravans then compared to Ferrari - he's never really had a good car under him. Renault's Pat Symonds has said Button is every bit as good as Hamilton, but he doesn't have the hardware.

Just because some one is silky smooth doesn't mean they are faster than everyone else, we all know the saying smooth is fast, but what you notice is that all the drivers have different driving styles and often there is no definitive answer to who is faster at f1 level. It depends so much on the car, the setup and the track.

Saying he is so much faster than everyone else because he is so much smoother is nonsense, he's not so much quicker than anyone at all. Some tracks favour aggressive driving others favour smooth, about the only thing you can say is, Button is a quick driver. Button is a smooth driver. when we start comparing, variables make the comparisons a bit messy.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Toyota can build decent cars, but never versatile ones. They always have an Achilles Heel that sends them to the back at certain types of tracks - which ones precisely changes from year to year.

Which is what makes this 2009 season seem very much like the 2005 season for them. Mega strong in the beginning, but gradually beginning to fade away. I hope they can keep it together, and improve the car throughout the season like they managed to last year.

So much for loyalty, eh?

If you're hinting at my secret Force India fan-ism; good spot! Last year I was absolutely thrilled that Sutil drove that far up front. In China, he nearly did it again. It's just so nice to see a team like Force India finally being able to get through Q1 together with another team that is home to the back of the grid. Buemi out-classed his teammate yet again. I think Bourdais has his home in sportscars racing, or maybe even the Indycar series, but in F1 he never managed to impress me even once. This season I keep thinking "That's what you get when you ditch Sato" when looking at Toro Rosso. I do have respect for the man, but he clearly does not perform in F1.

He came out of bloody nowhere. Faster in Q3 than in Q2, so god knows how many laps he's got to build a lead...

Dunno... I always felt Button was sandbagging, especially if Barrichello was amongst the top drivers in all sessions.

 

[Metar]

I don't think he sandbagged in Q2... He nearly dropped out there!

Button is actually one of the smoothest drivers on the grid in terms of driving style. If you watch him, you'll see the way he only ever turns in a much as he needs, and he takes every corner with one flowing move. A lot of the other drivers will correct themselves in the middle of the corner, but Button gives it just enough to follow through, which is what makes him so much smoother and so much quicker. He's like quicksilver.

Actually, wrong logic on Button's speed. He's fast and smooth, but a single flowing move is the slower way of completing a corner. View it this way: Every square centimetre of tarmac has slightly different grip-levels. Every bit of the tyre grips slightly differently. The best way through a corner is keeping it on that very limit on every given moment - in order to keep the car smooth and on the optimal trajectory. That involves twitching and changing the steering-angle constantly in order to adapt for the changes. If you watch the really fast onboards (yes, even Jenson's classic TC-aided 2004 Imola lap), you'll see constant corrections to the wheel on anything grip-limited rather than power-limited.

There's a pretty little anecdote regarding a Porsche Supercup race at Spa. Two onboards were shown - one of a smooth driver doing everything in a single, flowing, and one showing a driver hectically adjusting steering-angle, and constantly adjusting his throttle and brake-input. The outside shots showed something else - Mr. Smooth was, well, smooth, yet the other driver's car seemed calm and controlled as well. One of them, however, was three seconds faster on that lap - I'll let you guess who.

It's a setup-, track- and style-issue, on top of that. Look at Alonso's infamous early turn-ins in the Michelin Renaults - these don't work on the Bridgestone tyre and yet, on these Renault, on these Michelins, were the fastest way to get it around the track.

 

[Stevisiov]

I don't think he sandbagged in Q2... He nearly dropped out there!



Actually, wrong logic on Button's speed. He's fast and smooth, but a single flowing move is the slower way of completing a corner. View it this way: Every square centimetre of tarmac has slightly different grip-levels. Every bit of the tyre grips slightly differently. The best way through a corner is keeping it on that very limit on every given moment - in order to keep the car smooth and on the optimal trajectory. That involves twitching and changing the steering-angle constantly in order to adapt for the changes. If you watch the really fast onboards (yes, even Jenson's classic TC-aided 2004 Imola lap), you'll see constant corrections to the wheel on anything grip-limited rather than power-limited.

There's a pretty little anecdote regarding a Porsche Supercup race at Spa. Two onboards were shown - one of a smooth driver doing everything in a single, flowing, and one showing a driver hectically adjusting steering-angle, and constantly adjusting his throttle and brake-input. The outside shots showed something else - Mr. Smooth was, well, smooth, yet the other driver's car seemed calm and controlled as well. One of them, however, was three seconds faster on that lap - I'll let you guess who.

It's a setup-, track- and style-issue, on top of that. Look at Alonso's infamous early turn-ins in the Michelin Renaults - these don't work on the Bridgestone tyre and yet, on these Renault, on these Michelins, were the fastest way to get it around the track.

Textbook answer, makes my response look a little vague (which it was ).

DYR, The key to how smooth/aggressive is entirely dependant on the track conditions, corner, car, setup and all the other variable associated with racing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm just reciting what Martin Brundle tells me.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'm fairly sure Jackie Stewart has said smooth is the fastest way around a race track.

 

[nissan tuner]

Trulli claimed he would of made it into Q2 if it wasn't for Alonso's blocking

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/05/23/toyota-protest-alonso-block/

 

[Metar]

Moments after the session, they showed the incident: Trulli fudged up Rascasse, and came upon Alonso, preparing for his hotlap, at Anthony Noghes. Alonso moved to the left and off the line, as far as possible in that spot, yet Trulli swerved, at least a car-length away.

However, I don't believe it cost him Q2. He already fudged up the exit from Rascasse, and he wasn't ahead of 15th place in the second sector, either.

 

[Stevisiov]

I'm just reciting what Martin Brundle tells me.

Where did Brundle say Button is the fastest driver because he has the smoothest driving style?

Brundle is a big fan of Button's driving, but that doesn't make him the fastest on the grid by default.

I'm fairly sure Jackie Stewart has said smooth is the fastest way around a race track.

Far be it from me to criticize Jackie Stewart, smooth is fast is pedalled around a lot, particularly to new drivers, and with good reason.

However at F1 level it starts to become a little harder to say what is definitively faster, I believe Jackie was referring to the car in general rather than the subtlety of driver inputs, something Metar touched on earlier. Having the car neutral and balanced in a corner (that means not power sliding) is quicker in most racing scenario's since you are utilizing as much of the tyres grip as possible, but you don't need to be smooth and flowing with the wheel to achieve that. Even then, different cars respond to different driving styles, some cars you can throw into corners, others you have to gently guide them in. You can't really use one sweeping statement to cover all racing scenario's.

As a general rule of thumb, smooth is fast, but the logic Button is smoother and therefore faster can't be applied. unfortunately, its not that simple.

 

[Metar]

Vettel royally screwed, Alonso 10kg heavier than than other Q3 runners, Kazuki running a tanker-ship, all on sensible loads bar said Vettel.

Pos Driver Weight (kg.)
1. Jenson Button 647.5
2. Kimi Raikkonen 644.0
3. Rubens Barrichello 648.0
4. Sebastian Vettel 631.5
5. Felipe Massa 643.5
6. Nico Rosberg 642.0
7. Heikki Kovalainen 644.0
8. Mark Webber 646.5
9. Fernando Alonso 654.0
10. Kazuki Nakajima 668.0
11. Sebastien Buemi 670.0*
12. Nelson Piquet 673.1*
13. Giancarlo Fisichella 693.0*
14. Sebastien Bourdais 699.5*
15. Adrian Sutil 670.0*
16. Lewis Hamilton 645.5*
17. Nick Heidfeld 680.0*
18. Robert Kubica 696.0*
19. Jarno Trulli 688.3*
20. Timo Glock 700.8*

 

[Studentdriver]

Button wins.

 

[Peter]

Well, let's just call it a ferrari win from now. Raikkonen will have a KERS assisted start which should put him into the lead, Massa should be able to get past Vettel and hopefully Barrichello, so lok out for the guys in red on the podium.

EDIT: Expect to see alot of front wings lost on lap 1

 

[Tired Tyres]

Vettel's weight surprises me, but then again Webber isn't heavy either. Perhaps the Red Bull car updates aren't as good as the team thought they would be.

As for Alonso. I'd say the team put him on heavier fuel once they'd heard Toyota had reported him for blocking. There's no point running light looking for pole when your going to lose it to a penalty.

Edit

Well, let's just call it a ferrari win from now. Raikkonen will have a KERS assisted start which should put him into the lead, Massa should be able to get past Vettel and hopefully Barrichello, so lok out for the guys in red on the podium.

EDIT: Expect to see alot of front wings lost on lap 1

KERS is not allowed to work immediately off the start line as you must reach a minimum speed for it to work. There isn't enough space from the grid to Ste. Devote for KERS to do its thing. Button has to blow the start for Kimi to take the lead.

 

[Metar]

Button's starts have been less than spectacular this year, so it's all open.

Also, fuel and laps: Williams reports 2.58kg per 5km, Monaco is 3.34km long, so 1.72kg per lap. Therefore:

Pos	Driver 			Weight 	Fuel	Laps until first stop
1	Jenson Button		647.5	39.5	23
2	Kimi Raikkonen 		644	36	21
3	Rubens Barrichello 	648	40	23
4	Sebastian Vettel 	631.5	23.5	14
5	Felipe Massa 		643.5	35.5	21
6	Nico Rosberg 		642	34	20
7	Heikki Kovalainen 	644	36	21
8	Mark Webber 		646.5	38.5	22
9	Fernando Alonso 	654	46	27
10	Kazuki Nakajima 	668	60	35
11	Sebastien Buemi 	670	62	36
12	Nelson Piquet 		673.1	65.1	38
13	Giancarlo Fisichella 	693	85	49
14	Sebastien Bourdais 	699.5	91.5	53
15	Adrian Sutil 		670	62	36
16	Lewis Hamilton 		645.5	37.5	22
17	Nick Heidfeld 		680	72	42
18	Robert Kubica 		696	88	51
19	Jarno Trulli 		688.3	80.3	47
20	Timo Glock 		700.8	92.8	54

 

[Stevisiov]

Vettel's weight surprises me, but then again Webber isn't heavy either. Perhaps the Red Bull car updates aren't as good as the team thought they would be.

As for Alonso. I'd say the team put him on heavier fuel once they'd heard Toyota had reported him for blocking. There's no point running light looking for pole when your going to lose it to a penalty.

Vettel was stuck behind a very heavy Nakajima for his second flying lap. Poor timing cost him dearly, I don't think the Redbull is too hot at Monaco either.

KERS is not allowed to work immediately off the start line as you must reach a minimum speed for it to work. There isn't enough space from the grid to Ste. Devote for KERS to do its thing. Button has to blow the start for Kimi to take the lead.

62mph, which is reached within a second or so. Either way, its a short straight so KERS isn't going to be huge, I expect Button and Kimi to be side-by-side in the first corner if they both get decent launches.

 

[SaberFire]

Well, let's just call it a ferrari win from now. Raikkonen will have a KERS assisted start which should put him into the lead, Massa should be able to get past Vettel and hopefully Barrichello, so lok out for the guys in red on the podium.

EDIT: Expect to see alot of front wings lost on lap 1

Man, you really are a diehard Ferrari fanboy to the end, huh?

I doubt Massa or the F60 has the raw pace to take Vettel, and Raikkonen is running really light, according to the figures posted. Since he's running KERS, for that weight to be what it is, he must be running about 15 laps worth of fuel, and if he manages to pass Button, I doubt he's going to make much of a lead.

At least, not considering the F60's track record so far.

EDIT: Just caught the table posted up by Metar, so I'm corrected on the 15 laps issue, but even so, I can't see him outpacing someone like Button or Vettel.

 

[Peter]

No i'm not that in love with them, but i'm just looking at possibilities. The Brawn isn't a very fast car in the straight line (so says David Hobbs), so, as i always say the day before every race, "We will see"