2010 F1 German Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Thread starter waggles
  • 304 comments
  • 29,573 views
fasj6418
Fixing is outrageous in any sport that is not WWE. The fact that this has been done before does not change that, and it doesn't make me any less stupid for supporting a "sport" that s***s all over fair play.
Click to expand...
There's fixing, and then there's team tactics.

This race wasn't fixed. It was controlled by a team. A huge difference. It is against the rules, but it's not against the morales of any sport that employs teams of racers. Hell, just look to the Tour De France.
 
Anybody find it funny that the seven points Alonso got over Massa today is probably the same amount of points he could've scored at Silverstone had he let Kubica back past.
 
ExigeEvan
There's fixing, and then there's team tactics.

This race wasn't fixed. It was controlled by a team. A huge difference. It is against the rules, but it's not against the morales of any sport that employs teams of racers. Hell, just look to the Tour De France.
Click to expand...

Very different, it's allowed in the rules of the TDF, it isn't in the rules set out by the FIA. That's the point we're all making. If team orders were allowed, I doubt people would care, but when you get daft idiots like Ferrari who cannot do it without raising suspicion, then the fans don't like it. They had a chance to switch at the pit stops, Massa could have out-braked himself in to the hairpin, or ran wide when the car was a bit of a dog, but he did it more obviously because his sub-conscious wanted to make it obvious.

$100,000?

How much did Piquet/Briatore/Renault get for the Singapore race?
 
Sureboss
$100,000?

How much did Piquet/Briatore/Renault get for the Singapore race?
Click to expand...

If i am right, it was a hell of a lot more than that as was the whole Spygate saga with Ferrari!
 
$100,000?

What is 43 points worth in terms of their cut of the TV licensing, or Sponsorship for next season?

Do they get prize money for winning individual races? If so, how much?

Not to mention the fact that Alonso, not Massa has another win to his name.

$100,000 is nothing. Maybe 7 days worth of staff wages (Not including drivers).

It's not really a punishment at all...
 
I stopped watching this race once Massa let Alonso through. It's been a while since I've been so disgusted by F1. :grumpy:
 
Sureboss
Very different, it's allowed in the rules of the TDF, it isn't in the rules set out by the FIA. That's the point we're all making. If team orders were allowed, I doubt people would care, but when you get daft idiots like Ferrari who cannot do it without raising suspicion, then the fans don't like it. They had a chance to switch at the pit stops, Massa could have out-braked himself in to the hairpin, or ran wide when the car was a bit of a dog, but he did it more obviously because his sub-conscious wanted to make it obvious.
Click to expand...
You caught the wrong end of that. I don't disagree with it being against the rules, but that doesn't make it a "fixed" race. If Massa had done as you said, then that's team tactics, not team orders, and still not a "fixed" race.

In my opinion, race fixing is when teams of conflicting interest work together for (often financial) gain.
 
Artificial manipulation of the race result by a team is race fixing in my opinion.
 
livemusic
It's a shame that Ferrari has chosen to do this yet again. I think Alonso was quicker enough to be able to overtake Massa with no need for team orders. And that ******** radio talk is just calling all of their fans and all the people who enjoy F1 idiots.

Massa was specially disappointed because he wanted to dedicate this victory for his uncle who died this week.
Click to expand...
what did they say? I missed out on it when I watched. The commentators where really ridiculing it so it must have been funny :) (as in "you idiot" funny)
 
So we can pay to change places now? Interesting...
 
$100,000? That's 🤬-all! Typical Ferrari International Assistance.
 
I have to say I'm a little more disappointed in Ferrari's (or rather, Smedley and Massa's) handling of the team order rather than that a team order was given.

The fact is, we are at a critical point in the championship. This is not Schumacher dominating easily, Alonso is behind the championship fight and Massa is even further behind. Difficult decisions have to be and are made. Massa surely must understand and acknowledge that the team are focusing on Alonso now after his terrible first half of the season.

I fell on Webber's side in the team orders debate earlier, but that was because Webber has an equal chance as Vettel and their championship challenge is pretty close. Massa and Alonso is a different scenario.

I agree with telling Ferrari off for doing it so stupidly and obvious. But at the same time I do feel its a little amusing for so many people to be outraged at a team telling one of its employees to move over for the good of the team and his teammate. Not that I feel its good for the sport - but its not surprising is it?

The problem with this incident was that it was done very obviously and Ferrari are trying to pretend it wasn't a team order. The fact a team order happened is not surprising, outrageous or stupid.
I would have preferred Massa to have won that race but I am not really angry at Ferrari getting Alonso ahead. I think perhaps there are a few anti-Alonso emotions coming out here as I really don't think this incident is any different to any other teammate moving over.

The FIA are not going to ban them for team orders and team orders will always exist. The key is to not making team orders extremely obvious and then going all two-faced about it saying it was because Massa was marginally slower. Red Bull did the same at Turkey ("Vettel would have been overtaken by Hamilton blah blah").

I wonder what people would have said if Massa had not even had to have been asked to move over and he did it willingly? Is it more selfish for the team to ask him to move over or for Massa to try to win regardless and/or bring it out in public like this?
 
I have to say, I am enjoying the BBC's coverage of this season, despite Jonathan Legard... the rest of the team are great, and Eddie Jordan and David Coulthard are great value. Eddie Jordan took the words right out of my mouth on a regular basis this afternoon... for me, he's called it perfectly - that Ferrari are mincing their words and closing ranks, but Alonso only won the race because his team flouted the rules and therefore they deserve to be disqualified. It is a terrible pity for Massa and Rob Smedley, but even they are towing the line with their phoney post-race '🤬 happens' babble. By forcing Massa to let Alonso past, they ruined the race and made a mockery of the sport.

And if I were Christian Horner, I'd be fuming mad - the whole purpose of the switch was the prevent Vettel from having any chance at the win. It worked, but Ferrari have blatantly flouted the rules to do it.
 
driftking18594
$100,000? That's 🤬-all! Typical Ferrari International Assistance.
Click to expand...

Considering the past couple of races, how can you still say that?

-

Does anybody know what the maximum fine is that the Race Stewards can impose? Is it $100,000 by any chance?

I think not DQing the Drivers was a good decision. A fine was probably the way to go, but if there is a maximum, they have to refer it to the FIA for the real punishment.
 
ExigeEvan
You caught the wrong end of that. I don't disagree with it being against the rules, but that doesn't make it a "fixed" race. If Massa had done as you said, then that's team tactics, not team orders, and still not a "fixed" race.

In my opinion, race fixing is when teams of conflicting interest work together for (often financial) gain.
Click to expand...

Surely then the Piquet/Singapore saga wasn't race fixing, then? Even though it clearly was. The result of the race was fixed by the team in control of the race.
 
I just feel sorry for the fans that went to Hockenheim to watch the race.. we are all pissed off behind our computer screens but imagine how they must feel having paid for grandstand seats etc... I'm sure there were alot of Massa fans there today aswell.
 
Scandal follows Alonso like bad odours follow a ****

At McLaren he was involved in the espionage scandal with Ferrari
Then he went back to Renault, and they had the crash scandal with Piquet to let him win a race.

In a way he screws over Ferrari, a year later he screws their driver out of the championship. And yet ferrari take him in and make him their number 1..that boy must really know how to kiss ass..teams go lower then low to let him win a race :sick:

And now today he writes a new chapter to his great story - he makes even Schumacher look like a cubscout.

poor Massa..if I was him I wouldn't even have opened my bottle of champagne on that podium :yuck:
 
Seismica
Considering the past couple of races, how can you still say that?
Click to expand...
Sometimes I let my emotions get ahead of me.
I think not DQing the Drivers was a good decision. A fine was probably the way to go, but if there is a maximum, they have to refer it to the FIA for the real punishment.
Click to expand...
I think Alonso should have been hit by a penalty at the very least. I really wanted to see a battle between Alonso, Massa and Vettel. Instead, I get this load of crap. I'm already coming up with loads of typical Mafia catchphrases that the Ferrari team have been saying to Massa.
 
driftking18594
I think Alonso should have been hit by a penalty at the very least. I really wanted to see a battle between Alonso, Massa and Vettel. Instead, I get this load of crap. I'm already coming up with loads of typical Mafia catchphrases that the Ferrari team have been saying to Massa.
Click to expand...

What did Alonso do wrong? Honestly, it was a team order, therefore the team should suffer as all involved (Massa, Alonso, Stefano, Smedley...) committed the crime. If anyone should be penalised, its Ferrari, not Alonso on his own.
 
Sureboss
Surely then the Piquet/Singapore saga wasn't race fixing, then? Even though it clearly was. The result of the race was fixed by the team in control of the race.
Click to expand...
I'd say that was still team tactics. But far, far darker side of it. No other team was involved in the planning or execution of it, but others suffered.
 
Ardius
What did Alonso do wrong? Honestly, it was a team order, therefore the team should suffer as all involved (Massa, Alonso, Stefano, Smedley...) committed the crime. If anyone should be penalised, its Ferrari, not Alonso on his own.
Click to expand...


Yeah but you know Ardius, that it was almost definatley Alonso pushing for it to happen. I'm sure the team would've been content with Massa leading a 1-2.
 
Even as a die hard ferrari fan i turned the tv off after Massa let Alonso by...

This only happened once before...yes in 2002...

"nuff said!!!...


:yuck::yuck::yuck:


spy.
 
Duffers917K
Yeah but you know Ardius, that it was almost definatley Alonso pushing for it to happen. I'm sure the team would've been content with Massa leading a 1-2.
Click to expand...

So what? Massa didn't have to agree, the team didn't have to listen to Alonso either. They all started lying about it after the race, Massa is no innocent victim in this and as I said earlier, I'm a little disappointed in how at least Smedley handled it (i.e. making it fricking obvious to the world and causing this media storm).

Team orders will always exist as long as two drivers race for one team. To believe otherwise is daft. To believe the team doesn't or shouldn't care about the WDC is daft too, its the most public part of F1 - people refer to the WDCs not the WCCs more often than not. Schumacher is as big a name as Ferrari is.

If this was the last race of the season and Massa was 100% out of it, would people be as outraged then? No, so why is it different now? Massa has had a terrible first half of the season, Alonso has been visibly faster. Of course Ferrari are going to support Alonso from now on as its clear who is the stronger driver for the championship bid.
If they had a Red Bull situation, they cannot do this as its not clear who is better. Neither driver has had a dominant position over the other all season.

I take more issue with teams like Ferrari and Red Bull trying to lie to us, if they just came out and admitted it I would be fine with it.

If Massa had done it without being asked and came out and said "no team orders, I just felt Alonso needs the points" people would have praised Felipe's generosity and being a team-player. But if the team has to tell Felipe to do it, its "Felipe was a team player but the team did the wrong thing". You can take the perspective that Massa was being selfish trying to hang on to a win, its not at all shocking that Ferrari want to switch the drivers about.

The real disgusting part is when drivers are not allowed to race their teammates before the season has even started (Barrichello) and they are ordered to move over in a scenario where there is little pressure or uncertainty on who is the stronger driver for the remaining season (2002 Austria). But this is not the case here I don't think. If Massa was the one with the strong season, he wouldn't have been told to move over.
 
Last edited:
Ardius
If this was the last race of the season and Massa was 100% out of it, would people be as outraged then? No, so why is it different now?
Click to expand...
I would be even more outraged if that happened... what is wrong with the idea of Alonso trying to pass Massa by out-driving him? Call me old-fashioned, but that is what I expect from an F1 driver.
 
Absolutely sickening. If I was Massa I would have won that race at the expense of my employment every day of the week. How can Ferrari do such a thing with so many races left? Both drivers can still win and Massa deserved that. No one wants to see a champion who won because his team mate was forced to allow him. As if after 3 very unlucky races Massa would like to let Alonso past, when he is beating him fair and square.

As a Massa fan I'm sitting here pretty dejected.
 
waynz
No need to abandon your loyalty over 'one' controversial move... This isn't the first time they have done this and it wont be the last. Until the stewards and prove them guilty of race fixing then there in the clear...
Click to expand...

To be honest I have never liked Ferrari in f1 they seem to annoy me by having bits of assistance spa 08? and I majorly dislike Alonso to me he seems to allways winge when he is not winning and has to call in the team to artificially create a situation where he can win.

Although it may be seen wrong internally I think they way Smedly and Massa have handle the situation is perfectly good as they see that ferrari had no right to tell massa to let him pass, it gained the team nothing they should have said if your faster do something about it but nothing stupid and if I was Massa I would have replied to the orders 'well he can't catch me' and drove on for the well deserved victory.

Paris.
 
Last edited:
Back