2010 F1 German Grand Prix

[Ardius]

I would be even more outraged if that happened... what is wrong with the idea of Alonso trying to pass Massa by out-driving him? Call me old-fashioned, but that is what I expect from an F1 driver.

Its not surprising though and its always going to happen as long as we have teams. Its a team sport, its never been just about individuals on the race track.

Ferrari should be penalised, fined, whatever. But they cannot ban team orders, just make the team orders less obvious to the public.

I agree with (almost it seems) everyone that Ferrari are monumental 🤬 for doing this to Massa. But I just feel its being blown way out of proportion like its somehow surprising team orders still happen?

 

[Terronium-12]

Watching this on FOX, and despite already knowing who took the lead and won (by simply being in this thread) I am sick to death of Alonso whining every damn race.....EVERY race. If he's faster than Massa then just shut the hell up and pass him and stop bitching to the team about it being "Ridiculous".

Yes, I have to pretend the outcome is still a mystery to me.

 

[Alltidxx]

If he's faster than Massa then just shut the hell up and pass him and stop bitching to the team about it being "Ridiculous".

It is quite girly type stuff to whine about things being ridiculous, I agree. I like Alonso enough but on this matter he should've simply sucked it up and dealt with the situation at hand intead of pressing the radio button to whine about how ridiculous it is.

 

[Anghammarad]

I have not seen the race. Was Alonso complaining over the radio and demanding that Massa should let him by? Why was Massa leading in the first place?

 

[Sureboss]

Let's not forget he had a chance to overtake Massa, but blew it due to his inability to remain calm.

Can't wait till he retires.

Anghammarad - Massa got in front at the first turn, and was quicker than Alonso for the most part, but slower at a couple of periods. Cue radio message to Massa on about lap 40 "Alonso is quicker than you. Can you confirm you understand this message?" About 2 laps later, he sits on half-throttle out of the hairpin and the Spaniard takes the lead.

Alonso said "This is ridiculous" when he failed to overtake Massa, that was about it from Fernando.

 

[Ardius]

I have not seen the race. Was Alonso complaining over the radio and demanding that Massa should let him by? Why was Massa leading in the first place?

Massa had a better start and wasn't impeded by Vettel. Alonso had a good start but got to turn 1 on the inside and had to slow down.
Alonso didn't demand he let him by, just said "this is rediculous" when Massa kept slowing him down with his locked brakes, etc.

I agree with everyone saying Alonso is acting extremely spoilt right now (and perhaps forever it seems?).

 

[NotThePrez]

Watching this on FOX, and despite already knowing who took the lead and won (by simply being in this thread) I am sick to death of Alonso whining every damn race.....EVERY race. If he's faster than Massa then just shut the hell up and pass him and stop bitching to the team about it being "Ridiculous".

Yes, I have to pretend the outcome is still a mystery to me.

This.

In fact, they just played the radio command telling Massa to get out of Alonso's way. Unbelievable.

 

[Feschka]

I don't love any of the Ferrari's drivers, but it was the fastest car, that's the only thing making me feel good. It's the whole "Circus" which is 🤬, since decades.

Here you are babbling about mafia and stuff as if the British teams and drivers were little angels, rolling on the floor...

 

[Touring Mars]

they cannot ban team orders

If you mean "you can't stop team orders happening", then you may have a point. But nevertheless, team orders are banned, and teams are simply not allowed to instruct a driver to throw a race so that their team mate may gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the field. This is exactly what happened today, and hence I reckon it justifies a severe punishment. I agree with your point about who should be punished though - it is the team that ought to be punished, but I also think that the punishment ought to correct the unfair advantage received by the driver who benefited from the illegal action. At the bare minimum, 1st and 2nd places ought to have been reversed - but I doubt that was ever likely to happen. I reckon the only feasible option would be to have DQ'd Ferrari from the race completely - that way, Alonso would know he couldn't simply start bitching down the radio to get past his team mate, and Massa would know that what he did was unacceptable too. What we don't know is what kind of a choice Massa had... he claims there was no order and he let Alonso through out of the goodness of his heart. I'm kind of embarrassed for him, and disappointed that Massa thinks that any of his fans are going to swallow such a blatant lie.

I agree with (almost it seems) everyone that Ferrari are monumental 🤬 for doing this to Massa. But I just feel its being blown way out of proportion like its somehow surprising team orders still happen?

I don't think it is being blown out of proportion - the race was ruined and it has very serious implications for the sport if teams decide to blatantly ignore a rule because it suits them.

 

[Fastas]

If this was the last race of the season and Massa was 100% out of it, would people be as outraged then? No, so why is it different now?

I would be even more outraged if that happened... what is wrong with the idea of Alonso trying to pass Massa by out-driving him? Call me old-fashioned, but that is what I expect from an F1 driver.

Didn't Massa do the exact same thing in Brazil (of all places!) to gift Raikkonen the Championship in 2007?

I enjoyed the race weekend and was surprised at the amount of progress Ferrari have made on their car. I do have a bitter taste though from the result order.

What I don't understand is why the hell Massa is making such a big deal out of the situation. It's not like he doesn't know how he should deal with the situation and if it wasn't for his blatant display of displeasure no one would have raised an eyebrow.

Half the posters here had already written the guy off before this weekend. It's a bitter-sweet seat in the number two Ferrari but it will always be the same. Personally, I will be cheering on the Red Bull's as well as the McLaren's in the hope that they stop Alonso from any further profiting at the expense of the fans.

 

[Only_in_f1]

I
I agree with (almost it seems) everyone that Ferrari are monumental 🤬 for doing this to Massa. But I just feel its being blown way out of proportion like its somehow surprising team orders still happen?

I don't think that's the reaction. I think its very much the straw that broke the camels back.

 

[Ardius]

But every team uses team orders, just because Ferrari screwed up trying to hide it this time doesn't bring "serious implications".
I agree that Ferrari should be penalised, but trying to stop team orders happening is impossible without taking the teams completely out of the equation. And thats just not F1 anymore.

You also have to consider many things other than team orders manipulate race results that are not under the driver's control. The teams design the cars, create the strategies, even design the rules now. Only half of F1 is the action on the track and it will forever be that way as long as we have constructors employing 2 drivers.

I don't see how the sport can be changed to avoid this in future other than penalising the teams who screw up and try to sell their team orders as personal choices by the driver.

The "team orders are banned" rule is rediculous anyway as they can never prove it as long as the driver maintains he made the choice and the team never explicitly orders the drivers on the radio. I'm wholeheartedly behind Coulthard on this.

Didn't Massa do the exact same thing in Brazil (of all places!) to gift Raikkonen the Championship in 2007?

I enjoyed the race weekend and was surprised at the amount of progress Ferrari have made on their car. I do have a bitter taste though from the result order.

What I don't understand is why the hell Massa is making such a big deal out of the situation. It's not like he doesn't know how he should deal with the situation and if it wasn't for his blatant display of displeasure no one would have raised an eyebrow.

Half the posters here had already written the guy off before this weekend. It's a bitter-sweet seat in the number two Ferrari but it will always be the same. Personally, I will be cheering on the Red Bull's as well as the McLaren's in the hope that they stop Alonso from any further profiting at the expense of the fans.

Totally agree, "poor old Massa" put himself in this position through his own bad performances this year. Sure I would have preferred him to win but I'm not surprised when Ferrari ask him to move over as they have lost faith in his ability to secure the championship this season.

I agree with both sides of the argument really. I would love to see the drivers race without team orders. But I also accept that they happen and that in this circumstance, Ferrari were doing the right thing for their WDC hopes. Probably not for their WCC hopes though if Massa loses his confidence for the rest of the season.
I think everyone is getting more outraged than normal though simply because Ferrari have tried to spin it as anything other than a team order and that it involves whiney Alonso and Ferrari, who are not particularly popular with the fans right now.

 

[Anghammarad]

Cue radio message to Massa on about lap 40 "Alonso is quicker than you. Can you confirm you understand this message?" About 2 laps later, he sits on half-throttle out of the hairpin and the Spaniard takes the lead.

Alonso said "This is ridiculous" when he failed to overtake Massa, that was about it from Fernando.

Hmm, ok. Were they together at that time or was Massa leading comfortably? I is possible that the outcome would have been the same even without team orders?

It saddens me a bit that when Massa finally find race winning pace and Alonso isn't plagued by the bad luck he has had all year, the race is still controversial.

I also saddens me that I have to write my 1000:nd post about an Alonso incident.

 

[Terronium-12]

Now I see why none of his partnerships work out. I'm referring to Alonso, of course.

Every time something isn't going his way - *Cue the radio button, and here comes the incessant whining about something stupid." Honestly, he should be on his own team, that way when things aren't going his way, well, he'll still find something to bitch about - whether it be cold tires (even when they're at maximum temp) or someone who's about 3-4 seconds ahead of him is "holding him up". I officially can't stand him anymore. Just like SB said...

"Can't wait till he retires."

As for Massa, I think he did that on purpose to make it clear who was being favored a la Red Bull. The difference is it was a "coded" team order and he took it rather negatively, I mean who wouldn't? I'm not saying the situations were the same (Red Bull, Ferrari) I'm simply implying that like Webber chose to, Felipe "aired the dirty laundry".

 

[Ardius]

As for Massa, I think he did that on purpose to make it clear who was being favored a la Red Bull. The difference is it was a "coded" team order and he took it rather negatively, I mean who wouldn't? I'm not saying the situations were the same (Red Bull, Ferrari) I'm simply implying that like Webber chose to, Felipe "aired the dirty laundry".

I think this is rather poor play by Felipe in some respects. It means he partly brought about this media storm on Ferrari and highlighted the team order. He was totally right to do it in the sense of he deserved to win. But as a team-player its a bit selfish. How can he feel he deserves to be favoured now after his rubbish season so far?
I recall Australia where the team didn't order Alonso past to help team equality. The result? Massa continued to under perform.

I can't help but think Massa should be a bit more respectful to Ferrari for the chance they did give him and the fact Alonso has beaten him so far.

Sure, Ferrari haven't been very nice about it either and I'm not saying it was what Massa deserved per se. But I think Massa isn't completely blameless.

 

[The Outlaw]

Team orders orders still a factor in Formula 1? Who would have thought! All this moaning is quite ridiculous tbh.

Massa has had a terrible first half of the season, Alonso has been visibly faster. Of course Ferrari are going to support Alonso from now on as its clear who is the stronger driver for the championship bid.

This. Ferrari was clearly doing what is in their best interest. Alonso is already far enough back in the hunt (while Felipe is realistically out) and not capatilizing on such a situation would be a extremely poor decision on their part.

 

[Terronium-12]

I think this is rather poor play by Felipe in some respects. It means he partly brought about this media storm on Ferrari and highlighted the team order. He was totally right to do it in the sense of he deserved to win. But as a team-player its a bit selfish. How can he feel he deserves to be favoured now after his rubbish season so far?
I recall Australia where the team didn't order Alonso past to help team equality. The result? Massa continued to under perform.

I can't help but think Massa should be a bit more respectful to Ferrari for the chance they did give him and the fact Alonso has beaten him so far.

Sure, Ferrari haven't been very nice about it either and I'm not saying it was what Massa deserved per se. But I think Massa isn't completely blameless.

Absolutely. As I said during the whole Red Bull incident, if you're going to favor a driver then make it clear from the get-go, springing it on something at the last minute (well, not the last minute but you get where I'm going) does nothing but lessen the driver in a couple of ways. Like I said if anything Mass did it on purpose to highlight the team order, looking to encourage the penalty that's been given out. I also loved how Alonso tried to play innocent asking whether or not Massa secured second place - that alone says everything about Alonso. Varsha mentioned something about their relationship after him saying that and I just said "Bull:censored:" to myself.

Did you see Massa's face at the end?

 

[Anghammarad]

I have now seen a very short clip about the race and the team orders are amateurish to say the least. What surprises me is that no one has commented on the absolute disgrace Vettel made of himself at the start where he tried his very best to put Alonso in the barrier. It really should have been penalized and without that move Massa would never have lead the race.

 

[Peter]

I'm pretty sure that if McLaren or anyone else was in a similar championship situation, and something like this happened to them, you all wouldn't be complaining like this.

Massa said that it was his decision to give up the position, because he did what was best for the team, and it was best for the team. They're down on points, and Alonso was going faster, and is ahead in the WDC. Let the faster driver with more points by, to close the gap more in the WDC.

 

[Antti-san]

Watching this on FOX, and despite already knowing who took the lead and won (by simply being in this thread) I am sick to death of Alonso whining every damn race.....EVERY race. If he's faster than Massa then just shut the hell up and pass him and stop bitching to the team about it being "Ridiculous".

Ditto! Maybe they should turn off his radio for the next race?

 

[Alex.]

Massa said that it was his decision to give up the position

You actually believe that? wow. Who in their right mind would give up the lead of a Formula 1 race? He was saying what the team wanted him to say, Ferrari are disgraceful.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

What surprises me is that no one has commented on the absolute disgrace Vettel made of himself at the start where he tried his very best to put Alonso in the barrier. It really should have been penalized and without that move Massa would never have lead the race.

I was happy that he didn't get away with it. He lost the race win there. But didn't Massa gain an advantage at the first corner by going off the track?


I don't think the team orders would have been as big of an issue if Massa liked Alonso. If anybody remembers a certain 2008 Chinese GP, Raikkonen gifted Massa 2nd place despite having a pretty good gap.

Both Alonso and Massa haven't been very consistent this season, but Alonso has a good points gap over Massa. It's pretty understandable that if they want a chance at the driver's championship then Alonso has to be given opportunities like this. I would just prefer if they unbanned team orders.

 

[yeti]

But didn't Massa gain an advantage at the first corner by going off the track?

I think he went off to ensure Alonso didn't drive into him...

C.

 

[Danny]

I just give up with the commentary now.

"How do you read that then?"

"I don't speak enough Italian to know what's going on"

Regarding Spanish Alonso talking to Brazilian Massa.

 

[Alex.]

Man, I am well and truly depressed That's wrecked my week big time.

 

[Ardius]

I just give up with the commentary now.

"How do you read that then?"

"I don't speak enough Italian to know what's going on"

Regarding Spanish Alonso talking to Brazilian Massa.

^Well, what do you expect? For them to make up what they think is being said?

By the way, both of them do know Italian and its an easy way to hide what they are saying. I believe they've had confrontations before in Italian in the podium room. Its on youtube if you want to see it.

I don't see what its got to do with bad commentating. More just ignorance on your part.

 

[Bram Turismo]

But I just feel its being blown way out of proportion like its somehow surprising team orders still happen?

The problem I have with the whole situation is that it could make Massa the 2nd driver even before the 2011 season starts. In my opinion Massa should've said "no" to show the team he is not willing to be pushed around that easily by his team-mate.

 

[Danny]

^Well, what do you expect? For them to make up what they think is being said?

And uh... where does Italian come into it?

 

[Sureboss]

Hmm, ok. Were they together at that time or was Massa leading comfortably? I is possible that the outcome would have been the same even without team orders?

It saddens me a bit that when Massa finally find race winning pace and Alonso isn't plagued by the bad luck he has had all year, the race is still controversial.

I also saddens me that I have to write my 1000:nd post about an Alonso incident.

I reckon Massa had enough pace to keep Alonso at bay, though if Alonso had made another move, it wouldn't have surprised me if someone ended up with some damage.

 

[Ardius]

The problem I have with the whole situation is that it could make Massa the 2nd driver even before the 2011 season starts. In my opinion Massa should've said "no" to show the team he is not willing to be pushed around that easily by his team-mate.

Perhaps, but I think Ferrari have displayed earlier this season a willingness to give driver equality (Australia). Massa has clearly been slower despite this.

And uh... where does Italian come into it?

(those who don't like the swears, don't click)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMjknmNdvrM

Italian is something they both know and it hides their conversations somewhat (not completely obviously).
Shock, horror, people can learn other languages. Probably a lot easier for people who speak Spanish and Portuguese, I assume it gets confusing otherwise? Although there are similarities with Italian too. Whatever, now you know they can speak Italian and that the commentators (I assume you mean Legard and Brundle) are not so dumb, eh?

Though Legard was at his worst today. He actually said at one point, "first 1-2 for Ferrari for two years!".