2010 Formula One European Grand Prix

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Do you honestly think that McLaren would have done anything different if the roles had been reversed?
No. And if they had have, I'd be against it. Too much of Formula 1 is decided by who can get the other competitors banned. In this case, it's Ferrari trying to whinge and whine about Hamilton as loudly as possible.
 
Why does Lewis have to be behind Alonso and Massa? He was ahead of them before the safety car. If he hadn't overtook it, he would have still been ahead. Ferrari lost nothing because of Lewis...
Yes, and I'm sure that Hamilton hadn't been overtaken by any Ferrari on the track, that is to say, if he hadn't overtook the safety car, he hadn't been penalized, and his final position had been... eighth? (forgetting the penalties of other cars).
I mean, if that drive-through was applied at the time, obviously Hamilton would be behind Alonso and Massa.
In the next grand prix if someone overtakes the safety car... what will happen to him?
@Liz McQueen: Seriously. Hamilton? Spoiled by the FIA? Their treatment of Hamilton in his first two years was representative of everything that was wrong with stewarding at the time. To the point that they had to invent rules to find something to fine him with!
Ahhhh, yes, I remember, in a F1 Grand Prix is not allowed to use cranes.
 
Webber's crash was completely his fault, it's been a while since Webber has caused an accident but without question it was his own pointlessly aggressive driving that nearly cost him his life, lets hope he can bounce back from this and finish off the 2nd half of the season really strong, he was rather unlucky not to be on pole this race in my opinion.

I really despise Vettel's celebration style, in his sticking up of the index finger to signify that he's number 1, anybody else agree that it's rather lame, a clenched fist is all that is required.

 
Yes, and I'm sure that Hamilton hadn't been overtaken by any Ferrari on the track, that is to say, if he hadn't overtook the safety car, he hadn't been penalized, and his final position had been... eighth? (forgetting the penalties of other cars).
I mean, if that drive-through was applied at the time, obviously Hamilton would be behind Alonso and Massa.
In the next grand prix if someone overtakes the safety car... what will happen to him?

So, Ferrari only lost out due to the timing of the penalty, not the advantage Hamilton gained from the original incident. Therefore, Ferrari are complaining the rules didn't work in their favour - this is nothing to do with favouring Lewis and everything to do with not favouring Ferrari.
In the next gp, the same penalty would be issued, though it depends on the circumstances. In this situation it wasn't entirely clear what constituted "overtaking" when the SC was still in the pitlane and everything is determined by a small white line that Lewis cannot see easily.

The timing of the penalty was just unlucky for Ferrari, maybe they would have a case for us to feel sorry for them if Hamilton had been behind them but he was not. "Wah! We didn't gain enough from that penalty!" is not something I particularly care about. Its like complaining about the tyres not working in their favour or something - tough, deal with it.
 
Could I add my two quid to this argument?

My first point would be to congratulate Sebastien on his victory. Lewis looked like he was going to get him but Seb had extra in the bag so congratulations to him.

Driver of the day, and this is going to be very hard for me to say because I was his biggest critic, was Kobayashi. Okay, he might have got a little lucky with the way that the safety car went for him but he held off Jenson for at least thirty laps and then passed Alonso and Buemi on the last lap. He was awesome yesterday!

Mark Webber, thank the good man upstairs that he is okay because that looked like it was a very scary moment. In both instants, you could see everyone's arguments; yould could argue the point that Webber was much faster than Kovalinen and he should have let him through but, on the other hand, it was a battle for position and Kovalinen was in his rights to make Webber fight to overtake him. In this instance, Kovalinen should have used some common sense and realised that the Red Bull was miles faster than the Lotus and that he should have let Webber through but, once again, just thank God that Webber walked out of that crash

Now, onto what is going to be my biggest moan of this post; Fernando Alonso!

I come to Ferrari to win races, I come to Ferrari to win championships, blah, blah, blah, where have you been since you won in Bahrain! The way he acted over the radio was like a petulant child! Yes, absolutely i agree that Hamilton should have got the penalty that he did because he did overtake the safety car AFTER the Safety Car Line but it had to take a whinging andf complaining Alonso to get the FIA to do anything about it. Then, he goes and whinges about the point that Hamilton took his penalty, went in second and came back out second. I'm sorry, I HAD respect for Alonso but some of that was lost with the whole Spygate saga but now, after hearing his whining and complaining, I have lost ALL respect for him. Why don't he just tell it like it really is and that is, instead of bitching that Hamilton kicked his rear end once again, he couldn't even beat an underpowered Sauber AND Toro Rosso with the same engine inside of it. I absolutely praise his mechanic (don't know who that was on the radio) for telling him to forget about it and get on with the job because Fernando does need a kick you know where to get back in the championship.

Another point I would like to bring up were these "investigations" into those five cars ahead of him that allegedy violates safety car speed. That came miles after Hamilton's penatly so why wasn't that done at the same time. Let me give you the exact reason why that came about; someone got desperate to get a podium in his home race.

I have now vented!
 
Yes, and I'm sure that Hamilton hadn't been overtaken by any Ferrari on the track, that is to say, if he hadn't overtook the safety car, he hadn't been penalized, and his final position had been... eighth? (forgetting the penalties of other cars).
I mean, if that drive-through was applied at the time, obviously Hamilton would be behind Alonso and Massa.
So, Ferrari only lost out due to the timing of the penalty, not the advantage Hamilton gained from the original incident. Therefore, Ferrari are complaining the rules didn't work in their favour - this is nothing to do with favouring Lewis and everything to do with not favouring Ferrari.

The timing of the penalty was just unlucky for Ferrari, maybe they would have a case for us to feel sorry for them if Hamilton had been behind them but he was not. "Wah! We didn't gain enough from that penalty!" is not something I particularly care about. Its like complaining about the tyres not working in their favour or something - tough, deal with it.

Obviously you and me haven't seen the same race, I explained everything correctly in my previous post, what you want to hear is this: Hamilton is the best driver ever, are you happy now?
 
Then, he goes and whinges about the point that Hamilton took his penalty, went in second and came back out second.

No, that was not the issue at all. Hamilton took his penalty when he got it but the problem is that it took a full 30 minutes before it was handed out by the stewards. During this time he managed to build a lead that was sufficient for him to retain his second place. Had he been penalized in a timely fashion he would not have finished second. The reason for the penalty was very clear and it should have taken the stewards no more than five minutes after the incident to hand out the drive through.
 
Then why is Alonso whining about Hamilton and not the stewards?

In any event, the penalty handed out was the one mandated for this instance and was given when the stewards arrived at their decision. Any blame for it should be laid at the door of the FIA. If Alonso thinks he can do a better job as a steward, let him do so for a race.
 
Ok, I'm not a guy for big debates and I see tensions are high (not higher than in autosport's forum though ;) ) so I'll just say this for you all enlightened ones to consider:

Penalties are a worthless joke if they don't act as deterrent to rule-braking.
 
Indeed - my opinion is that passing the safety car should be an automatic disqualification and, on the evidence, that's what Hamilton should have received (once the stewards were happy that the infringement had occurred).
 
Ok, I'm not a guy for big debates and I see tensions are high (not higher than in autosport's forum though ;) ) so I'll just say this for you all enlightened ones to consider:

Penalties are a worthless joke if they don't act as deterrent to rule-braking.

+1

Exactly what I've been trying to get at with my comments and couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Lewis made the mistake. He boggled when the safety car came through the pits... couldn't decide whether to overtake where it was legal, and ended up passing the safety car anyway... after the safety car line. Not really Lewis's fault, but rules are rules.

Didn't really change his race much. He might have been able to push Vettel earlier... but the RBR held up to the end of the race, and given the track, there's no way he could have seriously overtaken him, anyway.

The safety car should`ve come out in front of Vettel so ultimately it was their mistake and not Hamiltons...
 
The safety car should`ve come out in front of Vettel so ultimately it was their mistake and not Hamiltons...
Yeah, the FIA really should have sent the safety car out before the accident... They should just let it drive round until someone crashes.
 
Then why is Alonso whining about Hamilton and not the stewards?


Because it's Hamilton leading the championship, not Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

Edit: I honestly think it is a strange behaviour from the race management to dispatch the safety car so that the lead car gets a race deciding lead and everyone else gets shafted.
 
Because it's Hamilton leading the championship, not Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

Ah, because he's a petulant child who whines about someone he has a grudge against rather than anyone who might actually be responsible.
 
Ok, I'm not a guy for big debates and I see tensions are high (not higher than in autosport's forum though ;) ) so I'll just say this for you all enlightened ones to consider:

Penalties are a worthless joke if they don't act as deterrent to rule-braking.

Edit: I honestly think it is a strange behaviour from the race management to dispatch the safety car so that the lead car gets a race deciding lead and everyone else gets shafted.

Indeed but, the problem is, in this instance the safety car was deployed at a time when the race leaders were still passing the pits.
It was called at the right time (immediately as the accident occured) but it failed to catch the leaders properly.

Looking at the onboard from Lewis, I don't think its so clear cut to say he cheated on purpose. He clearly slowed down and clearly showed confusion or uncertainty about what he should do.

The safety car rules perhaps need to be clarified with regards to how to react to it if its still in the pitlane/pit exit.

As much as you want to enforce the rules and deter drivers, you also need to be clear what the rules are. Its odd that Lewis didn't know the rules as I'm sure this is something they go over in the pre-race briefings though.

Definitely there is a problem with how the safety car is deployed, the rules involved and the speed the stewards came to a decision. But to say its a conspiracy to help Lewis is rediculous.

As far as I know they had enough time to come out in front of Vettel.

Apparently the spare safety car was deployed, which may explain the delay. Perhaps there was some problem with the normal car?

Obviously you and me haven't seen the same race, I explained everything correctly in my previous post, what you want to hear is this: Hamilton is the best driver ever, are you happy now?

:rolleyes:
Very mature. 👎
 
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Ah, because he's a petulant child who whines about someone he has a grudge against rather than anyone who might actually be responsible.
Part of me suspects it's for show. We are, after all, in Spain, the land where Lewis Hamilton is about as welcome as foot-and-mouth disease. To the Spanish fans, Alonso can do no wrong; after all, it barely even registers that there are two other Spanish drivers (seriously, read the press conferences from the event - there's one where Alonso, Alguersuari and de la Rosa are all on the panel, but all the questions from the floor are directed to Alonso). Alonso might be raising hell to play to the masses a little, which conveniently takes some of the attention away from his otherwise-lacklustre race.
 
I'm wondering why not change the rule..
once safety car is issued, no cars will be allowed to enter the pit (since we now have fuel for the entire race)
so the positions before and after the safety car period will remain unchanged. this will be fair for everyone.

it's a bit silly for years teams are abusing the safety car.
 
We had that rule in the past. The problem was that people were forced to pit or else risk a DNF, and they got isqualified for it. Granted, that was for refuelling, but what if we have another race like Montreal where the tyres erode quickly and staying out is dangerous?
 
Fortunately, its rare for the safety car to deployed like that anyway. Though its something that needs clarifying for future incidents as it can always happen again. Something like, "once safety car boards have been deployed, the lead car becomes the safety car until the SC catches the field, the lead car must maintain x speed".
Basically just make the lead car effectively the safety car until the SC can catch them. We saw on the BBC pre-show that race control has GPS to accurately monitor all cars at all times, so you can easily monitor the lead car and ensure he keeps within a certain speed while they are the safety car.
 
Granted, that was for refuelling, but what if we have another race like Montreal where the tyres erode quickly and staying out is dangerous?
But if you need fuel on lap 20, you need fuel on lap 20 and cannot do more. If your tyre stop was on lap 20, and the safety car came out and you couldn't pit, your tyres would easily last for a load more laps behind the safety car.
 
The safety car should`ve come out in front of Vettel so ultimately it was their mistake and not Hamiltons...

It was the safety cars mistake to come out late and let Vettel pass but it was Hamiltons mistake to pass the safety car after it was out and the rest of the race was ruined by the whole incident. :rolleyes: Except maybe for Hamilton and Kobayashi! :sly:
 
Ferrari's attitute is absolutely understandable, because Hamilton broke the rules and finished second, and Alonso obeyed and finished eigth. So that means the FIA encourages drivers to break the rules. Obviously Ferrari has all the rights in the world to find it unfair.
 
Hamilton didn't know if he was allowed to pass the safety car. He was, but he hesitated and that meant he passed after the safety car line. That is why he passed it too late. That is not cheating. It did not hurt Ferrari at all. If he had stayed behind it, Ferrari's race would not have changed one tiny little bit other that big baby Alonso having the back of a McLaren to look at for the rest of the race because he sure as hell wasn't going to pass one any time soon.
 
Ferrari's attitute is absolutely understandable, because Hamilton broke the rules and finished second, and Alonso obeyed and finished eigth.
Alonso and Ferrari should be more concerned about the other 6 drivers that got past Alonso to put him in 9th from 3rd. And what does that have to do with Hamilton?

When Mark Webber got his first victory at the Nurburgring, he also got a drive through on his way to the victory. I don't recall folk complaining that he still managed to win. Hamilton broke the rules, got a penalty, but was driving quick enough to negate the time lost to the penalty, just as Webber did in the 2009 German GP.
 
If he had stayed behind it, Ferrari's race would not have changed one tiny little bit other that big baby Alonso having the back of a McLaren to look at for the rest of the race because he sure as hell wasn't going to pass one any time soon.

And the championship
 
:rolleyes:
Very mature. 👎
Thanks.
I explained because Hamilton would be behind Alonso and Massa, if he and both ferrari were in the same second, after the penalty, he would be behind, that's logical, right? but the "penalty" was too late, and Hamilton won six positions legally.

Hamilton didn't know if he was allowed to pass the safety car. He was, but he hesitated and that meant he passed after the safety car line. That is why he passed it too late. That is not cheating. It did not hurt Ferrari at all. If he had stayed behind it, Ferrari's race would not have changed one tiny little bit other that big baby Alonso having the back of a McLaren to look at for the rest of the race because he sure as hell wasn't going to pass one any time soon.
Hamilton overtook the safety car deliberately:



I think everyone knows it's illegal, even sardines from the port of Valencia know it, could have people on the track picking up car parts and Hamilton ahead the safety car at full throttle.
 
And yet had he overtaken the safety car 0.5s sooner, it wouldn't be illegal. Wonder what the sardines think of that one.
 
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