2010 Formula One European Grand Prix

[J-PaP]

To annoy Fernando Alonso... good enough reason, really.

Fair point lol.

Seriously, I thought Alonso's whinging about Hamilton and the whole saftey car incident was nothing short of pathetic.

Yes and no... They were what... 1-2 seconds apart at the time of the accident? Yet look what happened as a result? The fact the stewards took so long to give a penalty (which had no consequence at all in the end) which basically encourages drivers they might as well break the rules as the benefits outweigh any penalties given.

The 5 second penalty ends up encouraging the same behaviour.

If the FIA wants to discourage behaviour and make sure drivers don't break the rules they need to penalise them to the point where it ruins their race completely. Otherwise a penalty does nothing to discourage behaviour.

 

[Ardius]

Fair point lol.



Yes and no... They were what... 1-2 seconds apart at the time of the accident? Yet look what happened as a result? The fact the stewards took so long to give a penalty (which had no consequence at all in the end) which basically encourages drivers they might as well break the rules as the benefits outweigh any penalties given.

The 5 second penalty ends up encouraging the same behaviour.

If the FIA wants to discourage behaviour and make sure drivers don't break the rules they need to penalise them to the point where it ruins their race completely. Otherwise a penalty does nothing to discourage behaviour.

What behaviour? The safety car was deployed late, missed the leader (Vettel) and confused the drivers. Lewis was really marginal on the line and clearly looked confused to what he should do.
It was a case of "well he broke the rules but he didn't do it on purpose" so they had to give a penalty but they didn't need to really tell him off because he didn't really do anything wrong.

As for the 5 second penalties, I don't know the specific details of which lap thats for but again it sounds like some confused drivers and technically breaking the rules but not in spirit.

 

[gtracedriver]

Kobayashi pass in the end was great. Webber accident was really big, luckily nothing happened. It was boring race apart from SC and 2-3 overtaking.

I am happy that Mclaren did better job and increase their lead. Ferrari got pissed Mercedes now need to get their act together. Silverstone will be much better. RBR is still ahead of others.

 

[Touring Mars]

Alonso and Ferrari were justified in calling for the penalty, and it was awarded - but crying because it didn't play into their hands is just bad sportsmanship IMO. The FIA can't make penalties too harsh, especially in relation to incidents like this - i.e. where the driver in question either made a mistake or had little option but to do what he did.

The FIA can't win - on the one hand, they have to enforce the letter of the law. On the other hand, the penalty (whether it benefited Ferrari or not) robbed the viewer of a great finish to a good race. But that issue aside, the sport doesn't need people of Alonso's calibre acting like a spoiled child when he doesn't get what he wants.

 

[J-PaP]

Behaviour that if you aren't sure then don't. I know it conflicts with the basic concept of racing which is to take opportunities as they come. Anyway it isn't a good situation to apply my logic as it wasn't exactly an intentional incident.

My previous comments anyway were more so related to the 9 cars speeding during the safety car. FIA should either have just reprimanded them and told them not to do it again or actually penalise them. In the end the only person who was penalised was Buemi as nobody else was affected by the penalty.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

These penalties are ridiculous. They should have handed out grid penalties for all the offenders.

 

[gtracedriver]

Sure there was lot of confusion over SC and Ferrari race got ruined as they were 3rd and 4th. But their main frustration seems to be Hamilton got away with it and still finished 2nd I think it was not so bad. To penalize some 25sec to all other drivers would be cruel.

Ferrari just need to accept it and move on. Same thing could have happened to other teams also. MS was waiting at pitstop for green lights too lol

 

[Touring Mars]

My previous comments anyway were more so related to the 9 cars speeding during the safety car. FIA should either have just reprimanded them and told them not to do it again or actually penalise them.

To be honest, 5 second penalties are a bit of a joke - perhaps in the Men's 100m Final, but not today

 

[yeti]

I think that Ferrari screwed it anyway - I watched the replay with Lewis and the SC boards were out before the last bend - had they pitted Massa then at the least - they would've been in an awesome position - they tried to get ahead of the SC - and failed...

C>

 

[J-PaP]

Sure there was lot of confusion over SC and Ferrari race got ruined as they were 3rd and 4th. But their main frustration seems to be Hamilton got away with it and still finished 2nd I think it was not so bad. To penalize some 25sec to all other drivers would be cruel.

Ferrari just need to accept it and move on. Same thing could have happened to other teams also. MS was waiting at pitstop for green lights too lol

Who cares about the impact it had on Ferrari! Kobayashi would have been on the podium!!!!!

The FIA are conspiring against Kobayashi!!!!! lol

 

[Feschka]

The fact the stewards took so long to give a penalty (which had no consequence at all in the end) which basically encourages drivers they might as well break the rules as the benefits outweigh any penalties given.

The 5 second penalty ends up encouraging the same behaviour.

If the FIA wants to discourage behaviour and make sure drivers don't break the rules they need to penalise them to the point where it ruins their race completely. Otherwise a penalty does nothing to discourage behaviour.

Agree 100%, it's so damn simple. Just another FIA fail, nothing new, ordinary stuff.

 

[astrosdude91]

Well, I just saw the race finally, no thanks to Fox! I must say it's not the result I hoped for. Sure, I'm glad that Red Bull took first place, but I would've liked to see Mark on podium as well. Thank God Mark is fine after a bad crash like that! When I saw the crash, I thought of the scene from Talledega Nights where Ricky had just crashed.

"I'm flying through the air. Nope, this is not good."

Since Alonso had a poor day, Vettel is right back in the points chase in third, not too far behind the two McLarens. I would love to see Vettel win the championship at the end of the season. But I would really like to see Webber win it all too. I feel like Mark really deserves it this year more than anybody! Now, lets just hope that Red Bull can have some more really good races, with both drivers doing well.

 

[Seismica]

Fair point lol.



Yes and no... They were what... 1-2 seconds apart at the time of the accident? Yet look what happened as a result? The fact the stewards took so long to give a penalty (which had no consequence at all in the end)

We saw how close Hamilton was at the end of the race. When he dropped back the first time, that was in order to get into clean air to save his tires (And he was saving his richer fuel mix until the later stages, whilst Vettel presumably used his to try and open the gap).

The drive through cost him the possibility of a win here. I'm not saying he would have... but I am saying it would have been very close, and Vettel is prone to making mistakes when under pressure. (except for in qualifying )

I think whilst the Red Bulls are ahead in Qualifying by a long way, I think Mclaren is miles ahead on race pace. Even in Turkey the Red Bulls were holding Hamilton and Button up until they collided. Maybe the car just makes better use of the tires for more of the race, whereas the Red Bull makes best use of them over 1-2 hotlaps, but struggles over a full race period. Or maybe it's the Mclaren drivers... I don't know.

 

[Feschka]

Besides, I just wonder whether FIA ever heard of "debris yellow caution", apparently they didn't, as stewards must risk their lives to clean the track probably for no more than a "thanks", if they're lucky. 👎

 

[Ardius]

Besides, I just wonder whether FIA ever heard of "debris yellow caution", apparently they didn't, as stewards must risk their lives to clean the track probably for no more than a "thanks", if they're lucky. 👎

I wondered whether the marshal did that with or without the permission of race control. It is odd there were no yellows waved for that, though it really depends on where the cars are on the race track and how quickly the marshals can clear it up.

Also - why do people keep mixing up the words "marshal" and "steward"?

 

[gtracedriver]

Kobayashi was definitely the driver of the race

 

[Ardius]

Kobayashi was definitely the driver of the race

Yup, he had Button covered - he didn't even need to defend! He put in consistent fast laps, kept his tyres great for the entire 55 (or whatever it was) lap stint, even setting his fastest laps at the end of it! Then he came out on the new soft tyres and not only got back into a rhythm quickly but also stuffed Alonso and Buemi on a circuit that is supposedly hard to overtake on.
He did obviously have the advantage with the fresh tyres on, but even so, a rubbish driver wouldn't have done what he did.

Of course, his entire result was thanks to the fantastic strategy call by Sauber, but it also depended on him keeping ahead of Button and keeping a consistent pace. Lesser drivers would have worn their tyres out and been passed by drivers. They also wouldn't have kept their head and made those end-of-race moves. That move into the last corner was one of the best all year, really out of nowhere and committed.

 

[daan]

I wondered whether the marshal did that with or without the permission of race control. It is odd there were no yellows waved for that, though it really depends on where the cars are on the race track and how quickly the marshals can clear it up.

According to the live timing, there was a 40 second gap between the last of the "A" teams, and the first of the "B" teams. (Lapping hadn't started by that point) That must have been when the marshall made a run for it, and it was clearly enough time for him to get it.

 

[Radracing]

The CLK GTR raced at Le Mans in 1998, but the CLR was a completely different car.

On the Heikki - Webber accident:

I think Heikki and Mark need to share the blame for this accident. Heikki should not be braking when in the middle of the track and off the racing line while Mark should not be slipstreaming so close on Heikkis tail right in front of such a sharp corner while his car was clearly fast enough to make the move without so much slipstreaming.

I agree with you totally on this one. It didn't help Heikki to to figure out what Mark was trying to do to give him the space he needed since Webber was swerving left to right and then slipstreaming. Webber should have just shown his cards by showing clearly where he intended to pass whether left or right and stay there to let Heikki know and he would have given him that line knowing that Webber was clearly faster. Oh well another racing incident for Webber.

 

[LizMcQueen]

What about maFIA? theoretically the safety car should take to the track before the first car, right? I think the race was manipulated by "judges".

 

[gtracedriver]

Yup, he had Button covered - he didn't even need to defend! He put in consistent fast laps, kept his tyres great for the entire 55 (or whatever it was) lap stint, even setting his fastest laps at the end of it! Then he came out on the new soft tyres and not only got back into a rhythm quickly but also stuffed Alonso and Buemi on a circuit that is supposedly hard to overtake on.
He did obviously have the advantage with the fresh tyres on, but even so, a rubbish driver wouldn't have done what he did.

Of course, his entire result was thanks to the fantastic strategy call by Sauber, but it also depended on him keeping ahead of Button and keeping a consistent pace. Lesser drivers would have worn their tyres out and been passed by drivers. They also wouldn't have kept their head and made those end-of-race moves. That move into the last corner was one of the best all year, really out of nowhere and committed.

Yeah he really did a good job and grabbed the opportunity

Hamiltons penalty:

 

[Dodzzz]

webber didn't give enough room at istanbul then vettel crashed.
now heikki didn't give him room then he crashed..
it looks like karma, scary..

 

[Radracing]

webber didn't give enough room at istanbul then vettel crashed.
now heikki didn't give him room then he crashed..
it looks like karma, scary..

Karma: has a way with things don't it?

What about maFIA? theoretically the safety car should take to the track before the first car, right? I think the race was manipulated by "judges".

Then there's the conspiracy theory! I thought the Spanish fans were going to plet the track and Hamilton with beer bottles to provoke another Safety Car. Didn't even see them interview Hamilton after the race. Hmmm!

 

[Seismica]

What about maFIA? theoretically the safety car should take to the track before the first car, right? I think the race was manipulated by "judges".

That's what I thought. But then again, If Vettel was aready approaching the start/finish line when the incident happened and the safety car deployed, they can't exactly wait another lap to deploy it, that would be compromising the safety of the marshalls.

webber didn't give enough room at istanbul then vettel crashed.
now heikki didn't give him room then he crashed..
it looks like karma, scary..

Both incidents were primarily caused by the overtaking driver. Here, he could have applied the brakes slightly earlier, knowing another overtaking opportunity would come later, or he could have went down the small gap on the inside. Webber is in the wrong here just as Vettel was in Turkey. The difference is that this was not for the lead and also, Webber could have lost his life in that accident.

 

[Ardius]

webber didn't give enough room at istanbul then vettel crashed.
now heikki didn't give him room then he crashed..
it looks like karma, scary..

Heikki didn't give him room? He could have clearly gone left, as would be normal when the driver in front is defending the inside.
But instead Webber decided to try to use more slipstream right before the braking point and forgot/didn't realise that the Lotus has to brake earlier than him.
Heikki didn't help weaving a little bit (due to his own uncertainty about where Webber was going) but there was no reason why Webber needed to get so close to the Lotus and slipstream right before the braking point.

It was mostly stupidity from Webber as far as I can see, same as Vettel.

Its actually a fairly common incident when playing racing games online such as GT5, people misjudge their speed differences and forget to take into account different braking points all the time while trying to be close and clever with their slipstreaming. Its basic racing knowledge to always give the guy in front some room and never to assume he is going to brake the same time as you - particularly a driver or car that is obviously slower like in this case.

Both incidents are the same, but you are blaming the wrong drivers. Though certainly this incident is a bit more even blame for Heikki with the unecessary weaving. But Heikki was perfectly within his right to defend the position - I completely disagree with those who think the slower teams should throw themselves out of the way just becaues in the long term they can't win. If you are racing for position, you are racing. There is no dishonour in forcing the faster car to have to work to overtake, there is perhaps if you do it the whole race and lose your own race with your nearest competitors (like if Heikki lost time fighting the Virgins or whatever). But Heikki wasn't making it hard for Mark - there was space to go around and Mark would probably have finished the job around the outside or later.
Basically - a backmarker driver should never do a Bernoldi but they should also be allowed to race for position, otherwise, whats the point in turning up?

 

[Danny]

Out of interest, what would have happened if Sauber had just... not pitted Kobayashi? I know they have to run on the different tyre sets, but would it be a qualifying penalty? DQ?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

What about maFIA? theoretically the safety car should take to the track before the first car, right? I think the race was manipulated by "judges".

After it allows other drivers to go past it

FIA Regulations

40.8 When ordered to do so by the clerk of the course the observer in the car will use a green light to signal to
any cars between it and the race leader that they should pass. These cars will continue at reduced speed and
without overtaking until they reach the line of cars behind the safety car.

40.9 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind
him. Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within ten car lengths of it (except under 40.11 below)
and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.

 

[Ardius]

Out of interest, what would have happened if Sauber had just... not pitted Kobayashi? I know they have to run on the different tyre sets, but would it be a qualifying penalty? DQ?

I don't know because it hasn't happened before, but surely a severe penalty. At the very least a 30 second penalty or more because the advantage gained could be potentially huge.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Or maybe a 5 second penalty?

 

[Ardius]

Or maybe a 5 second penalty?

Heh, only if there was some "confusion" about the green stripe on the tyre