2010 Formula One European Grand Prix

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Looking at the pictures at formula1.com, I see that Briatore was at the race. Maybe he jinxed Alonso?

 

[Pescara for GT5]

I am going to say this race was surprisingly entertaining to me. The Webber crash was scary, thankfully he walked away. Sad about Hulkenburg, he had a good run going. Also, I think Kobayashi may be one of the better drivers in that field right now, if he had a better car he may just be a serious title contender, seriously, he has finished 3 races this year and scored points in 2, and today he passed a double world champion and a promising young star in one lap on a track which is notoriously hard for people to overtake on, good job Kamui Kobayashi, you have impressed us once again.

 

[Radracing]

I am going to say this race was surprisingly entertaining to me. The Webber crash was scary, thankfully he walked away. Sad about Hulkenburg, he had a good run going. Also, I think Kobayashi may be one of the better drivers in that field right now, if he had a better car he may just be a serious title contender, seriously, he has finished 3 races this year and scored points in 2, and today he passed a double world champion and a promising young star in one lap on a track which is notoriously hard for people to overtake on, good job Kamui Kobayashi, you have impressed us once again.

Yes, Kobayashi! I'm really becoming a big fan. Hopefully he'll get a better ride next year. 👍

 

[Ardius]

All the top seats are gone though so I think he's going to be at Sauber again next year - though at least he has secured that seat.
Title contender? Hmm I don't think so but he is a talent thats for sure. He has displayed good overtaking ability, defensive, qualifying form, race pace, wet driving. He makes his strategies work usually too, doesn't ruin his tyres.
The only question marks are whether he is too aggressive (though he has made it mostly stick very well so far) and whether he can be consistent over a season and circuit to circuit.

 

[The Outlaw]

Alonso and Ferrari were justified in calling for the penalty, and it was awarded - but crying because it didn't play into their hands is just bad sportsmanship IMO. The FIA can't make penalties too harsh, especially in relation to incidents like this - i.e. where the driver in question either made a mistake or had little option but to do what he did.

You don't seem to fully understand what Ferrari and Alonso were upset about, nor the importance of such an issue in the Championship points standings (especially to Ferrari) in what is a multi billion dollar sport/business.

Had Hamilton's drive through penalty been handed out and served within a proper/reasonable amount of time (not 30 minutes later after the lame duck stewards figured out the obvious), Hamilton at the very least would have gotten stuck behind Kamui and Button. But because of the incompetents of the stewards, the finishing positions were once again tainted due to their utter slugishness to react to an important situation 👎

And a 5 second penalty for speeding excessively under caution? Maybe from now on one should forget about even slowing down and meeting their lap delta under yellows if they assume the FIA will only hand them a 5 second penalty

 

[Ardius]

I think the 5 second penalty was more that the stewards wanted to avoid drastically altering the results, like someone in the thread said earlier - they can't win.
If they had punished everyone with 20 or 30 second penalties, people would complain about excessive post-race alterations and "Ferrari Assistance". But if they don't punish them, they mock the rules.

I don't think 5 seconds is particularly right but then I do not have the information the stewards have.

The Hamilton case is a bit more wrong, but not entirely surprising as the stewards do normally take a while. Its far more complicated than it seems to us though, many of the race driver stewards have said its a very complex process and nothing like they thought. They have more factors than simple black/white rule breakings to consider, they also have to review all the events proceeding and refer to the team's points of view. 30 minutes may be a bit much but then we don't know what the evidence was.

Alonso sounds like a crybaby because its not like he has never benefitted from breaking rules. He has a point but they are more interested in when the rules benefit them, I hardly think Alonso would be complaining and asking for bigger penalties if he was in Hamilton's position.
The real problem was the bad safety car deployment which created the situation in the first place - they completely missed Vettel though they did call the SC at the right point.

 

[tibiquera]

Had Hamilton's drive through penalty been handed out and served within a proper/reasonable amount of time (not 30 minutes later after the lame duck stewards figured out the obvious), Hamilton at the very least would have gotten stuck behind Kamui and Button. But because of the incompetents of the stewards, the finishing positions were once again tainted due to their utter slugishness to react to an important situation 👎

That's precisely the point. If Hamilton hadn't broken the rules, he would've finished 8th. So was justice served? I believe the way it was handled sets a very bad example for future races.

And a 5 second penalty for speeding excessively under caution? Maybe from now on one should forget about even slowing down and meeting their lap delta under yellows if they assume the FIA will only hand them a 5 second penalty

I guess the same applies for forgetting you can't overtake the safety car...

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I don't think 5 seconds is particularly right but then I do not have the information the stewards have.

I'm wondering where this penalty was for Schumacher after Monaco, where the rules weren't so clear. Here we have clear rules that were broken and they come up with a bigger joke. 5 seconds is nothing unless you're Buemi or DLR.

The Hamilton case is a bit more wrong, but not entirely surprising as the stewards do normally take a while. Its far more complicated than it seems to us though, many of the race driver stewards have said its a very complex process and nothing like they thought. They have more factors than simple black/white rule breakings to consider, they also have to review all the events proceeding and refer to the team's points of view. 30 minutes may be a bit much but then we don't know what the evidence was.

Considering how close Lewis was to passing before the line, the penalty seems about fair. Though again the penalty turned out to be no penalty. He could have possibly slowed down so Alonso would not be able to pass without clearly breaking the rules. But now drivers will know what to do if this situation arises: go for the pass.

 

[Pescara for GT5]

All the top seats are gone though so I think he's going to be at Sauber again next year - though at least he has secured that seat.
Title contender? Hmm I don't think so but he is a talent thats for sure. He has displayed good overtaking ability, defensive, qualifying form, race pace, wet driving. He makes his strategies work usually too, doesn't ruin his tyres.
The only question marks are whether he is too aggressive (though he has made it mostly stick very well so far) and whether he can be consistent over a season and circuit to circuit.

Well last time he truly impressed in my opinion was back in Abu Dhabi, where in his second race for the folding Toyota team he scored 2 points, when other drivers over the year had scored zero(including fellow countryman Kazuki Nakajima), I may not know much but both teams were fairly bad, and both tracks are fairly different.

 

[Ardius]

I'm wondering where this penalty was for Schumacher after Monaco, where the rules weren't so clear. Here we have clear rules that were broken and they come up with a bigger joke. 5 seconds is nothing unless you're Buemi or DLR.

Considering how close Lewis was to passing before the line, the penalty seems about fair. Though again the penalty turned out to be no penalty. He could have possibly slowed down so Alonso would not be able to pass without clearly breaking the rules. But now drivers will know what to do if this situation arises: go for the pass.

Like I said, I think the 5 seconds was used because of fear of altering the results drastically. Maybe they were also fearing making a wrong decision like for Schumacher? I mean, Hill did get hate mail and all sorts for that even though it wasn't his decision.

As for Lewis, why is everyone forgetting that Vettel also gained a massive advantage from this? From Lewis' point of view he has just seen Vettel overtake effectively the safety car and he thinks "what should I do?" he decides that seeing as it seems like he has overtaken the car (from his view anyway) that he can just trundle under the delta time like Vettel has.
The stupid thing is, Ferrari wouldn't have benefitted if Hamilton hadn't jumped the safety car like that, they would have still had a bad race.
The bad deployment of the safety car (which I'm also reading elsewhere was the spare one) affected the incident and benefitted Vettel and Hamilton accidentally. Hamilton could have avoided overtaking the safety car but he seemed unsure whether he was in the right or wrong as the car was still in the pit exit, not on the circuit. Plus he had just seen Vettel avoid it completely.

Well last time he truly impressed in my opinion was back in Abu Dhabi, where in his second race for the folding Toyota team he scored 2 points, when other drivers over the year had scored zero(including fellow countryman Kazuki Nakajima), I may not know much but both teams were fairly bad, and both tracks are fairly different.

Thats two circuits (ok, more if we include a few other performances) but he hasn't finished many races this year due to unreliability and we haven't seen him complete a full season with a competitive teammate.
For all we know he could crack like Sato at BAR.

He needs a full season with a reliable car and a known quantity teammate (DLR is not entirely clear whether he has good pace or just good luck this year) before we can say, ok he should have a top car.

 

[Stevisiov]

A question for those who follow F1on the BBC, Where is the F1 Forum? I missed it due to the world cup game, and I saw it was -coming soon-, now the race has been put up, but the forum is now nowhere to be seen.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I have to say I'm suspicious of the penalty that was issued to the nine drivers. By all means, prosecute where it is called for, but I sense the hand of Ferrari in this. I'm thinking that after Hamilton was penalised and suffered nothing for it, Ferrari went looking for something and were hoping the stewards would penalise drivers and alter the race outcome in Ferrari's favour. After all, each of the nine drivers was running ahead of Alonso and/or Massa at the time. I'd be very interested to see data on the in-laps for everyone behind them.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Then there's the conspiracy theory!

no, but... favoritism? Hamilton is the spoiled child in F1, it's a fact.
Hamilton did something wrong and he had a penalty, ok, but if that penalty had been fair, he would have to be behind Alonso and Massa.

I thought the Spanish fans were going to plet the track and Hamilton with beer bottles to provoke another Safety Car. Didn't even see them interview Hamilton after the race. Hmmm!

There are too stupids in the world, although some Alonso fan/spanish TV commentators could do worse things for his idol.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I have to say I'm suspicious of the penalty that was issued to the nine drivers. By all means, prosecute where it is called for, but I sense the hand of Ferrari in this. I'm thinking that after Hamilton was penalised and suffered nothing for it, Ferrari went looking for something and were hoping the stewards would penalise drivers and alter the race outcome in Ferrari's favour. After all, each of the nine drivers was running ahead of Alonso and/or Massa at the time. I'd be very interested to see data on the in-laps for everyone behind them.

Yeah and the hand of McLaren helped on deciding the penalties.

If they found that the other drivers were speeding and they weren't, they had the right to call it in.

 

[Ardius]

no, but... favoritism? Hamilton is the spoiled child in F1, it's a fact.
Hamilton did something wrong and he had a penalty, ok, but if that penalty had been fair, he would have to be behind Alonso and Massa.

There are too stupids in the world, although some Alonso fan/spanish TV commentators could do worse things for his idol.

Hamilton? Spoiled child in F1?
Jeez people always have selective memories. Guess Spa 2008 didn't happen then?

Why does Lewis have to be behind Alonso and Massa? He was ahead of them before the safety car. If he hadn't overtook it, he would have still been ahead. Ferrari lost nothing because of Lewis. They did lose out because of the safety car and its bad timing with relation to Vettel and the field behind them.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Ferrari lost nothing because of Lewis.

On grandprix.com it says that Hamilton slowed down before speeding up.

 

[Bram Turismo]

On grandprix.com it says that Hamilton slowed down before speeding up.

If you are speaking of the moment where he drives alongside the safety car, then you are correct. I'm wondering if the safety car might've signaled Lewis to drive through, but he was certainly hesitating.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If they found that the other drivers were speeding and they weren't, they had the right to call it in.

Of course they had the right. What I'm questioning is their motivations behind it. It was like in 2007 when McLaren challenged Williams and BMW for having illegal fuel cooling systems in their cars, but they only went after Heidfeld, Kubica and Rosberg becuse they were in front of Hamilton and disqualifying them would have given Hamilton the championship. But Nakajima had the same system and McLaren didn't go after them. Ferrari clearly felt that they should have been racing Hamilton, even if it was only for ninth (no doubt for the fans to see Alonso battle with him) and when Hamilton didn't lose anything, I suspect they went after the other cars in the hopes of penaising them and getting a better finishing position for their drivers.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I suspect they went after the other cars in the hopes of penalizing them and getting a better finishing position for their drivers.

That's the idea. I think Ferrari were the only ones who lost out on the safety car, partly because of their track position and partly because of following the rules.

Ferrari is falling further and further away from contention for both championships. This race was a big blow since they improved their car a fair bit.

 

[Seismica]

A question for those who follow F1on the BBC, Where is the F1 Forum? I missed it due to the world cup game, and I saw it was -coming soon-, now the race has been put up, but the forum is now nowhere to be seen.

Thats what i'm thinking. I tried to watch it at 10pm on iplayer. I searched it, clicked on the link and it showed "Coming soon".

Now I just checked again, it's not there at all

And another thing, why do they never show Free Practice 3 on iPlayer? I always seem to miss that one. (I'm probably not missing much as the track is usually empty for the most part, but still...)

On grandprix.com it says that Hamilton slowed down before speeding up.

But the thing is, Alonso was not close enough to pass it either. If Hamilton had not hesitated and kept his foot down, he would have passed the safety car before the line and probably would have challenged for the lead, but Alonso would still have been stuck behind it, because as Fernando says, "We were following the rules". Hamilton was punished, Ferrari didn't gain. Alonso should get over it.

The big problem here is the safety car didn't get out in time for Vettel coming around.

As for the "The decision came too late" argument, the gap between Hamilton and Kobayashi opened very quickly after the safety car went in. By the time Hamilton had his drive through penalty the gap had stabilised. If he had the penalty earlier he would have most likely slotted in behind Button or Barrichello. So it's not all that significant considering the result would have been pretty much the same anyway, because of the post race 5 second penalties that would not have affected Hamilton.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The CLK GTR raced at Le Mans in 1998, but the CLR was a completely different car.

The CLK LM raced at Le Mans in 1998, an evolution of the CLK GTR.


Anyhow, the 5 second penalties seem a bit pointless, it barely penalised anyone. I bet this has been Alonso's best weekend ever.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's the idea. I think Ferrari were the only ones who lost out on the safety car, partly because of their track position and partly because of following the rules.

And how is that fair? Why even bother to race at all if someone is going to try and get the other teams penalised because they lost out on the safety car? Especially since Ferrari apepar to have done some kind of testing of the Valencia-spec parts and then called it a media function. Even if it was a legitimate PR event, you can bet they were still discreetly receiving feedback from Alonso, so that's effectively cheating. Yet they're allowed to bring the wrath of the stewards down on everyone else for being too quick (and essentially trying to get track position coming out of the pits)? How is that remotely fair? Once again, Ferrari appear to have flexed their muscles to try and assert their claim to a position they have no right to. Fortunately, sense prevailed and the stewards only added five seconds to everyone's times, so the end result wasn't affected too much and Ferrari only got an extra two points. If it had have been a full twenty-five seconds, Alonso would have finished fourth and Massa about sixth

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

And how is that fair? Why even bother to race at all if someone is going to try and get the other teams penalised because they lost out on the safety car?

How is it not fair? The other drivers broke a clear rule, not falling inside the window of time they were given to get into the pits.

Let's say Whiting didn't notice Alonso's jump start at that previous race. Or let's say that it was less noticeable, yet he still gained position. Would you not say it would be fair for Button, who saw it, to complain to McLaren and then McLaren to the FIA?

 

[niky]

Ferrari's "testing" was very short... and actually legal under the rules. Can't have gotten much data from just a dozen kilometers on track, at photo-op friendly speeds.

-----

Ferrari: Whinge whinge whinge...

The FIA messed up the whole safety car thing... and Ferrari simply wanted the penalties to work out in their favor. In fact, they expected a whole slew of 25 second penalties to give Alonso a much higher position. They didn't. End of story.

@Liz McQueen: Seriously. Hamilton? Spoiled by the FIA? Their treatment of Hamilton in his first two years was representative of everything that was wrong with stewarding at the time. To the point that they had to invent rules to find something to fine him with!

The current stewarding is absolutely perfect, IMHO. They catch things that they wouldn't have before (the jump starts). They allow minor gaffs by if the driver clearly wasn't intending to break the rules, they allow people to actually race each other and only slap fines on incidents if somebody was clearly too aggressive... and they apply new rulings based on on-track incidents after each race... not retroactively.

Hamilton got a fair penalty. He got it too late, yes, but he got a fair penalty. In the end, he would have still landed on the podium. Just one place down. Then he'd be back in second place after Button's 5-second penalty. (did everyone else miss that part? Perhaps Alonso wouldn't have been complaining about everyone else if he'd known... )

What does Ferrari want? For the FIA to make the penalty even worse than the rules allow for? Should we just change all the 25 second and 5 second penalties to "Everyone please line up behind Alonso"? Or "Black flag for everyone who messes up under the safety car"?

Personally, I think that Hamilton's penalty was harsh... but legitimate. He was clearly confused when he pulled up beside the safety car, because the safety car came out too late. And he was still penalized.

Let's look back at Monaco. Schumacher was clearly confused at the restart... because "green" means "go"... And yet he was still penalized... with the same penalty. After the incident, the FIA apologized to him and clarified the rule in question. But the penalty stood.

In each case, the penalty had different effects. But we can't control what effects the standard FIA penalties should have. That's the luck of the draw.

 

[MarkWebber]

Webber's crash was completely his fault, it's been a while since Webber has caused an accident but without question it was his own pointlessly aggressive driving that nearly cost him his life, lets hope he can bounce back from this and finish off the 2nd half of the season really strong, he was rather unlucky not to be on pole this race in my opinion.

I really despise Vettel's celebration style, in his sticking up of the index finger to signify that he's number 1, anybody else agree that it's rather lame, a clenched fist is all that is required.

 

[astrosdude91]

Webber's crash was completely his fault, it's been a while since Webber has caused an accident but without question it was his own pointlessly aggressive driving that nearly cost him his life, lets hope he can bounce back from this and finish off the 2nd half of the season really strong, he was rather unlucky not to be on pole this race in my opinion.

I really despise Vettel's celebration style, in his sticking up of the index finger to signify that he's number 1, anybody else agree that it's rather lame, a clenched fist is all that is required.

Wow, Mark! You sure are critical of yourself!

I don't really have a problem with Vettel holding up the index finger in celebration. He came in first, didn't he? So why can't he show it?

 

[chromatic9]

A question for those who follow F1on the BBC, Where is the F1 Forum? I missed it due to the world cup game, and I saw it was -coming soon-, now the race has been put up, but the forum is now nowhere to be seen.

http://twitter.com/jakehumphreyf1

They had some technical issues. I had the live stream going but they only chatted for 10-15 mins, replayed the highlights before the stream was cut.

Sounds like they didn't record a full show but if they did then it will appear soon. F1 forum sometimes takes a day or so to appear.

About the race. I can't believe Alonso and Ferrari reactions.

 

[niky]

Wow, Mark! You sure are critical of yourself!

I don't really have a problem with Vettel holding up the index finger in celebration. He came in first, didn't he? So why can't he show it?

Because he's only third in the championship. He should be holding up three fingers to celebrate his sub-optimal season. [/sarcasm]

 

[prisonermonkeys]

How is it not fair? The other drivers broke a clear rule, not falling inside the window of time they were given to get into the pits.

Yes, they broke the rule. But I suspect Ferrari are using it because a ruling didn't go their way. If Hamilton had been penalised and was fighting with the Ferraris, or if Alonso and Massa hadn't lost out from the safety car, they'd have ignored it. I'm all for penalising drivers who clearly deserve it - but penalising drivers to give yourself an advantage is just plain wrong. If the chronology of events is as reported (the drivers getting the penalties and then Ferrari whinging about safety cars), then I think they're still smarting about it.

 

[Anghammarad]

Yes, they broke the rule. But I suspect Ferrari are using it because a ruling didn't go their way.

Do you honestly think that McLaren would have done anything different if the roles had been reversed?