2011 Formula 1 British Grand Prix

[eSZee]

If you consider Kobayashi "dangerous", Hamilton should be banned from F1

Am I missing something?

 

[F1 fan]

What a load of tosh. You don't have to hate something to criticise it.

And you don't have to be a fanboy to defend someone either. I'm done talking to you. We're not going to come to any understanding on this.

 

[Famine]

Initally I thought that Ferrari did not agree to revert back to blown diffusers due to it being in their own interest.

As was pointed out by the BBC, everything every team does is based on their own self-interest. Every team is looking for the advantage - or at least the minimum disadvantage - and F1 probably wouldn't be F1 without it.

I've got no problem with Ferrari looking to minimise the gains other teams get from OTBDs, or Mercedes looking to show why they need theirs for engine life (I recall Ferrari were allowed a concession in 2009 to upgrade their engines after a reg change caused a deliterious effect on their engine reliability), or Renault just wanting it anyway. The FIA's job is to treat everyone the same - changing the rules between FP1 and the race is not on and changing the rules to level the playing field in the middle of a season is silly. We saw them being sensible with the double diffusers in 2009 and less so with the OTBD and moveable mass dampers in... err... 2007 (Horner alleged that MMDs were banned after "Ferrari couldn't get their system to work", and similar for OTBDs).

Sure, ban things for safety reasons, but for reasons of "The engineers were smarter than us"?

Excuse me? You explained it once. Not twice.

Once to you.

And as for Kamui, he was indeed labelled dangerous, incorrectly. He isn't dangerous, actually knows when to back off and isn't on an ego trip.

Almost everyone in F1 puts Kamui and Hamilton in the same bag - exciting drivers who aren't afraid of a fight, won't take being passed lying down and are enthralling to watch.

Nevertheless, it was your contention that people shouldn't support Hamilton based on conjecture (he would be labelled dangerous if it were his rookie season), while you support Kamui Kamikaze/Kobacrashi/insert humerous nickname here who actually fulfilled your conditions.

Well maybe you weren't joking, but you have no real reason to claim Kobayashi is dangerous.

I don't believe that I did.

Are you so blind that you never notice the constant barrage of Vettel bashing? I am a Vettel fan, so naturally the complete hatred people seem to have for him on the forums spurs me on. And the day Hamilton deflates his ego and realizes that this isn't "the Lewis Hamilton show" will be the day that I don't need to go on the offensive against Hamilton.

My question to you, is why is it supposedly ok for the constant Vettel hatred, but it's not ok for me to question Hamilton's method's?

Who was talking about "Vettel bashing"? I don't recall even mentioning his name.

And you do this every time too. Here's what I mean about "going on the offensive":

And your sense of humour is terrible

Are you so blind that...

It's little wonder that you fill the staff's inboxes every race weekend with reports...

Stop playing the man and play the ball. Stop turning every discussion about a driver or incident into the personal characteristics of the people discussing it. And stop playing the wounded party every time.

Fact is you're supporting, by way of an avatar, a driver who actually has been branded as aggressive, crazy and dangerous by his world champion peers rather than just one you think is dangerous, while criticising those who support the latter or, more commonly, just those who you think support the latter with no good reason for this conclusion (for the record, I dislike Hamilton, Alonso, Webber and Vettel*, quite like Kobayashi, support Jenson [and have since his debut] but am not blind to his errors [see Button/Alonso in Canada and the farcical pit stop] and my preferred team is Williams). I'm glad F1 has drivers like Hamilton, Kobayashi, Air Petrov and Perez. Less so that it has drivers like Maldonado and d'Ambrosio.

On the latest incident which has sparked this diatribe, Hamilton wasn't even investigated by the stewards (makes a change) and the team boss of the team for which his opponent drives had no problem with it. I don't quite know why this has resulted in yet another "Hamilton is dangerous" complainathon, but people are genuinely put off from posting in F1 threads because of rampant anti-driver sentiment like this - you've kicked off again at Hamilton for no readily apparent reason again, regardless of how justified you might think you are for people "bashing" Vettel.


Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter who "bashes" what driver and why. It's the manner in which it's done. I've been called blind and humourless (rhetorically) by you in this exchange alone and for no good reason. No wonder people don't want to join in when they face abuse without cause.


* You can imagine how I'm enjoying this season so far, from a results perspective. Not much.

 

[Centura]

One interesting thought, I haven't really noticed anyone say anything about Ricciardo. I know it was his first Grand Prix, but on paper, he performed terribly today. Any news on why he was over a minute behind Liuzzi? I would like to see the reaction of those who talked up his chances before the race. For those watching on OneHd, what was their attitude towards his performance?

Actually, I think he even got lapped by his teammate. Take a look on the live timing. http://www.formula1.com/live_timing/live_timing.html

 

[homeforsummer]

And you don't have to be a fanboy to defend someone either. I'm done talking to you. We're not going to come to any understanding on this.

Clearly not, because you're refusing to accept when you're wrong about something.

And you'll note I've not called you a fanboy at any point.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hamilton is the main guy that can overtake anywhere and anyone it seems. He can overtake his teammates without team orders. I hoped for more rain when he got ahead of Alonso but once it started to dry out, I knew the Ferrari pace would show. Alonso was driving fast in the rain going by the onboards but Lewis was driving quicker still. Maybe he was using a bit of his Silverstone 2008 pace advantage over the rest of field in the rain to outweigh the car disadvantage he had.

I think it surprised Vettel how fast Lewis was through the corners in a car lacking in downforce at this track as he probably thought it would be easy in a car that could lap a second a lap quicker and the advantage of DRS. In the end he had to undercut him and lost loads of time to Alonso due to not being able to overtake him on that stint when he was behind. I don't think he had the pace to beat Alonso, as Alonso was the one still setting the fastest laps even when Vettel was chasing in clean air.

I would not be happy if I was either Webber or Vettel, when your team principle thinks both of you will crash if you race each other for only two laps.

 

[Sureboss]

Good race, Button's move on Massa was a stunner. A shame the Brits struggled, Button's DNF, Di Resta's various issues and Lewis running low on fuel, but maybe with the correct fuel load he'd have not been able to compete for 3rd anyway, what with the extra weight.

Also, handbags!

 

[Terronium-12]

Quick takes:

3). Webber's post-race comments about ignoring the order were out of line and if Horner had a pair, Webber would be out of a job prior to Germany. Quite sure any of the STR boys could fill in adequately, would be thrilled to step up and would have no trouble being Vettel's caddy. RB holds all the cards in this, and in Webber's contract talks. They have the best car on the grid, they know it, and they know any other driver on the grid save Alonso would gladly come over.

He ignored them? Good!

I wish Massa had the same pair but that's neither here nor there. If you think any driver capable of winning a championship in a championship-winning chassis is going to sit back while the team favorite reaps all the rewards and take it up the chute without saying anything, then, you must be mad.

Barrichello and Schumacher; that right there debunks your entire logic.

 

[Ferrari_1996]

I like Vettel, and I support him in F1. Even though I'm British. But If he's out of the race, I'll support Hamilton and Button....

I don't like people who are against Vettel just because Red Bull Favour him. It's not his fault Red Bull favour him, it's because he is the championship leader, and he is the better driver. Face it. How many poles has Webber had? Clearly Vettel is faster. He has also got more wins than anybody this year, and he is a nice chap who always smiles when talking. Hamilton I would say is the more entertaining driver, but he is not as consistant as Vettel.

 

[Jose']

This has been one of the most exciting races. Fernando Alonso drives wonderfully, poor Massa . I can not understand the Weber situation... I am sorry about him, Fernando already suffered it in McLaren.

 

[Centura]

I would not be happy if I was either Webber or Vettel, when your team principle thinks both of you will crash if you race each other for only two laps.

Just take a look at this quote: "We cannot give away a load of points. We did not want to see our drivers in the fence at some time in the last two laps, which is how it would have ended up."

That's a lot of confidence in your drivers, right?

 

[Brend]

Just take a look at this quote: "We cannot give away a load of points. We did not want to see our drivers in the fence at some time in the last two laps, which is how it would have ended up."

That's a lot of confidence in your drivers, right?

Bloody joke. These are 2 professionals, not some noob drivers.

 

[Ferrari_1996]

Just take a look at this quote: "We cannot give away a load of points. We did not want to see our drivers in the fence at some time in the last two laps, which is how it would have ended up."

That's a lot of confidence in your drivers, right?

It's not a lot of confidence but they don't want to risk it. They want Red Bull to stay at the top of the constructors championship, which is why they told Webber to back off...

EDIT: Yes, it's racing. And I don't like team orders. I like pure racing. But you need to understand why Red Bull told Webber to back off...

 

[Akira AC]

Well interesting race,none of my expectations or hopes came into reality,maybe because of the diffuser issue from yesterday(kind of racing-driver critic excuses or baffles),so thoughts:

>Team orders suck,just like the "Alonso is faster than you" team order from last year,"you have to maintain the gap",hell no,besides the most affected team is RB themselves,why?, because such point sum will put Webber in closer position to Vettel,which will put him second on the championship,to complete 1-2 positions for RB drivers in the championship(and consolidate a bit Webber's position),Vettel has a considerable advantage(points wise) over Webber on the championship(and in fact everyone),so they should let him run,he was faster,he deserved 2nd place.

>Alonso driving,well as expected,just clean,tidy and correct,he deserved to win(trust me it pains me to say this because I don't really like Alonso)

>Hamilton on crash situation again,well,I have no comment on that,however it was a pretty messy ending so I will have more trust on the FIA decision(if it is under investigation).

>Button's retirement( )

Apart from that,pretty exciting race,looking forward to nurburgring.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Just take a look at this quote: "We cannot give away a load of points. We did not want to see our drivers in the fence at some time in the last two laps, which is how it would have ended up."

That's a lot of confidence in your drivers, right?

I know it is an insult to any racing driver saying you can't even do your job right for about 3 minutes if it involves racing your teammate in a team sport. They managed fine as Webber did not back down, but maybe became a bit to cautious as it was his teammate.

Famine, why do you not like Maldonado? He has impressed me with his qualifying pace since the start of the season and may put Rubens in risk of getting replaced. About people / maybe one member saying Hamilton being dangerous, Massa had strong views in Monaco but he had no problem with what Hamilton did today.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93018

 

[F1 fan]

Almost everyone in F1 puts Kamui and Hamilton in the same bag - exciting drivers who aren't afraid of a fight, won't take being passed lying down and are enthralling to watch.

Nevertheless, it was your contention that people shouldn't support Hamilton based on conjecture (he would be labelled dangerous if it were his rookie season), while you support Kamui Kamikaze/Kobacrashi/insert humerous nickname here who actually fulfilled your conditions.

I have never implied that people shouldn't support Hamilton. Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I do stand by my comment about him being involved in more than his fair share of incidents this season.

Who was talking about "Vettel bashing"? I don't recall even mentioning his name.

I was. I didn't say you bashed Vettel, but look through every race thread and you'll see what I'm on about. Or ask Ardius. He's aware of it too and people seem to trust him.

It's little wonder that you fill the staff's inboxes every race weekend with reports...

Really? That's hilarious. It is not my intention to cause hassle, but given the fact that I've never even had a single contact with a moderator in regards to it, I obviously haven't broken any rules. If I had, then I would have been warned, given an infraction or banned. I haven't had any of those.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter who "bashes" what driver and why. It's the manner in which it's done. I've been called blind and humourless by you in this exchange alone and for no good reason. No wonder people don't want to join in when they face abuse without cause.

Again, I'm going to go back to my previous point. How many times has a moderator intervened? None. So I haven't done anything wrong, merely I've been defending my favourite driver. I have a right to do so. If you want to get to the bottom of the matter, and have enough time to do so, I suggest you start reading through the race threads. Or even quicker, perhaps you should just ask Ardius, as he knows what I'm on about.

Actually, I think he even got lapped by his teammate. Take a look on the live timing. http://www.formula1.com/live_timing/live_timing.html

Has any reason for this been given?

Clearly not, because you're refusing to accept when you're wrong about something.

And you'll note I've not called you a fanboy at any point.

Well with all due respect, it's getting hard to keep up with who said what.

Anyway, enough is enough. I will not respond to any more comments today unless it can be done in a mutually calm manner.

 

[Ferrari_1996]

Why does everybody hate Alonso?

 

[Terronium-12]

It's not a lot of confidence but they don't want to risk it. They want Red Bull to stay at the top of the constructors championship, which is why they told Webber to back off...

That's already a load of tripe if that's their reasoning. Even if Vettel DNF'd he still would have been in the lead by a large sum. Even if Webber would have DNF'd he would have dropped to third (fourth?) and likely would have worked his way back into second before season's end. Just the team spin doctor trying to spin a negative into a hindsight positive.

 

[Famine]

Famine, why do you not like Maldonado?

I won't name names, but a friend of mine spoke to a mutual acquaintance who happens to be a Williams tech:

"How's your new driver?"
"Very rich, thank you."


He did a bang up job in qualifying this weekend, but his race showed his standard again. I think Turkey free practice cemented my dislike of him where five drivers left the circuit and he was three of them.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Why does everybody hate Alonso?

Who's hating on Alonso? I thought this was the Vettel/Hamilton hate thread.

 

[Greycap]

My question to you, is why is it supposedly ok for the constant Vettel hatred, but it's not ok for me to question Hamilton's method's?

I'm not the guy who this was aimed at but I'll have a go at it anyway. At the moment it just seems to be fashionable to hate Vettel because he's young, he's doing pretty damn well, and as a result people think he's doing too well.

What's funny is that a certain group of people mainly hates him because in their opinion he's got the best car of the grid on a golden plate too early in his career without ever having to show his talent. He's also seen as having the "golden boy" status in the team and his team mate always having to give way to him.

Well, as it turns out he began his career at BMW Sauber and then moved to Toro Rosso for two years before eventually landing in a Red Bull seat in 2009 - his fifth year in F1 if the years at BMW as a third driver are counted. He eventually got a competitive car right from the beginning of the season in 2010, his sixth year in F1. The golden boy status, well, just look at 2009 and 2010 without a bias and there really is none. If there was, the Turkey incident wouldn't have happened and Webber certainly wouldn't have won at Monaco with Vettel finishing second. They were allowed to race and at the end of the season Vettel came out on top. This year he's been so much faster that it's no miracle he's far ahead.

On the other hand those people very conveniently forget that a certain Lewis Hamilton got the second best - if not the best - car of the grid for his rookie year and was favoured over his team mate to the point in which "we're not racing Ferrari, we're racing Fernando".

 

[F1 fan]

Why does everybody hate Alonso?

I don't. He has a lot of fans, but I think there is still some bad blood from 2007.

I won't name names, but a friend of mine spoke to a mutual acquaintance who happens to be a Williams tech:
"How's your new driver?"
"Very rich, thank you."

Isn't that an old joke? I've heard it before but can't remember whether it was an old joke from times when there were a lot of pay drivers or if the joke was about Maldonado himself.

Edit: @ Greycap, given the ruthlessness of the Red Bull young driver program, I don't think many people are of the opinion that Vettel was handed a top car on a gold plate.

 

[Terronium-12]

I won't name names, but a friend of mine spoke to a mutual acquaintance who happens to be a Williams tech:

"How's your new driver?"
"Very rich, thank you."


He did a bang up job in qualifying this weekend, but his race showed his standard again. I think Turkey free practice cemented my dislike of him where five drivers left the circuit and he was three of them.

Wait, what?

 

[Ferrari_1996]

That's already a load of tripe if that's their reasoning. Even if Vettel DNF'd he still would have been in the lead by a large sum. Even if Webber would have DNF'd he would have dropped to third (fourth?) and likely would have worked his way back into second before season's end. Just the team spin doctor trying to spin a negative into a hindsight positive.

Do you think Webber listened to the team order?

 

[Ghova]

there goes Ferrari's winning streak, Blown Diffusers Enabled for the rest of the season... ohh godd Red Bull Dominance Again,

 

[Jose']

Why does everybody hate Alonso?

British are the ones who pull the strings in F1. The press is biased towards Hamilton. I remember the scandal when Massa conceded him the victory in Germany, that was an earthquake, whilst no one complained about the Hamilton overtaking to the safety car in Valencia. Hamilton is the darling of the FIA. When he makes something wrong, the FIA modify the rules "for the future". Button, in my opinion, is a better driver.

Today has been demonstrated who is the best.

 

[Terronium-12]

Do you think Webber listened to the team order?

I don't know. It looked like he backed off just a bit, if only out of courtesy for his teammates well-being which I can respect. According to zippy however, apparently Webber himself said he ignored the orders. So who knows?*

FOX's lame arse coverage never shows the full post-race interviews unless the event itself is 100% live, a la Canada.

*I only say this because I haven't seen nor heard it myself, therefore having no real input on the matter.

 

[homeforsummer]

Why does everybody hate Alonso?

Because he's a bit of a moaning git. A very talented moaning git, but a moaning git nonetheless.

That said I've actually quite enjoyed some of his pit-radio commentary lately. It's quite funny when he asks his engineer to shut up and let him get on with racing.

Hamilton is the darling of the FIA.

Really? Have you been watching this season? He's been to the stewards office in more than half the races... The FIA are hardly turning a blind eye to him.

If any entity can be described as the darling of the FIA it's Ferrari, though today proved what can happen when they stop flapping about and making a fuss and just build a quick car and stick a quick driver in it.

Button, in my opinion, is a better driver.

Depends how you see it. Hamilton is quicker than Button, but Button makes more considered decisions and he's less likely to make mistakes. Whether you see that as Button being better or not is a different matter.

 

[Akira AC]

Do you think Webber listened to the team order?

He had to,and Webber clearly gave up in the last 3-4 corners.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I won't name names, but a friend of mine spoke to a mutual acquaintance who happens to be a Williams tech:

"How's your new driver?"
"Very rich, thank you."


He did a bang up job in qualifying this weekend, but his race showed his standard again. I think Turkey free practice cemented my dislike of him where five drivers left the circuit and he was three of them.

He has shown good levels of pace especially in qualifying and seems to be more than a match for Rubens, who is faster than the stig but will Vettel beat him? I'll be off to see that shortly. You could say he finished at the standard place what his car deserves but really Williams are not as strong as last year so it will be more likely to fall backwards in the race if he qualifies well. If he finished Monaco then he would have had some points but we all know how that ended up. The only thing I think Maldonado's problem is the extra capacity as from team radio, he seems to like over his limit but I'm sure he will get better with more experience. He also drives the car very much on the edge like he is about to lose the car at every moment he drives the thing so no wonder why he goes off the circuit quite a bit. Maybe that is why he is quick in qualifying and not so in the race?

Anyway, off to see Top Gear, the question is will Vettel take pole position where it really matters? Can he outpace Rubens over one lap like Maldonado can ?