2011 Formula 1 British Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Peter., Jul 4, 2011.

  1. Ardius

    Ardius

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    1. No that was Liuzzi, he wasn't paying attention to his mirrors at Club (I was sat there watching this) and hence didn't move over until Webber had already decided to overtake. I never saw Ricciardo put a foot wrong all day, really he was too cautious in my opinion as he was lifting really early to let people past. But only natural for a rookie. Honestly, I think Ricciardo wasn't really impressive at all this weekend and he was taking it really carefully, getting maximum mileage. Give him time but he didn't set the track alight this weekend, a tough race and tough conditions to make a debut.

    2. Only 1 if I remember right - Kobayashi.

    3. Just Button and Vettel?
     
  2. HippieGiraffe

    HippieGiraffe Premium

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    Nice picture! :tup:

    Its funny how these things often play out. Who would of thought a Ferrari win was possible on the 60th anny of their first win at the same track? Nearly to the day even. Strangely, its also the 50th anniversary (also nearly to the day) of Wolfgang von Trips last win. He would be killed two races later at Monza.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. homeforsummer

    homeforsummer Premium

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    Gotcha. I forgot that even happened.

    Wouldn't have made a difference either though. Alonso was quicker on outright pace.
     
  4. rockdude101

    rockdude101

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    I don't understand all this 'Alonso stole the show' talk going on in here.

    I really don't, because from what I saw, it was rather RB pit error and Hamilton blocking (All legal, mind) that built a 12s gap BEFORE Vettel forced to pit for track position & new tyres, but nevermind.

    I'm actually surprised that there's no investigation into Hamilton's contact with Massa on the last corner. I'm not Hamilton bashing here - but he clearly gained an advantage after contact & Schumacher was unfairly given an 10s penalty for the exact same offense.

    On the whole RB Team Orders saga...I doubt the FIA have the stones to investigate really. We knew exactly what Horner said and what Webber was expected to do. If Webber still thinks he's a No.1 then frankly, he should move to a team that will give him that status at the expense of being in the best car on the grid within opening '11 regs.

    Speaking of, I expect that if the Championship were to pretty much follow the usual pattern - where Ferrari gain at the late European & Asian tracks & make it competitive, then the decision made yesterday could (I say should) be formally challenged by Ferrari and/or Mclaren. If the FIA approved the original RB entry - then it should be legal until the end of the year or proven otherwise, where only the entries that do not qualify with the rules should be either change or be disqualified. None of this compromise rubbish, it's an insult.
     
  5. Moot

    Moot

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  6. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Alonso was fast today, really fast. At times the Red Bulls were faster, but at the end of the race, the gap to Vettel only grew...and it wasn't because of Webber because Webber only caught Vettel in the closing laps.

    I don't really see why people think its not possible for Alonso to be genuinely faster. Because really he was. Sure, he might not have won without the wheel nut issue but then again maybe he would have. Alonso was never too far off Vettel throughout the race and I don't see it being impossible for him to have won otherwise.

    Team orders are legal, there is nothing to "investigate". What is done is done, now we will see if it damages Red Bull's image and if Webber gives up on this team.
     
  7. Moot

    Moot

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    I'm sure Webber will find a way of knocking Vettel off the track next race, by 'accident'.
     
  8. rockdude101

    rockdude101

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    Yeah even though team orders are allowed, I thought there was a penalty for coded messages which deceive?
     
  9. Moot

    Moot

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    McLaren €5000 fine for unsafe release
    Sauber €20000 for unsafe release.
     
  10. Akira AC

    Akira AC

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    Not sure if kidding.

    Anyway,Team orders are legal,so "deal with it" is the sad really that must be affronted,besides,it seems that red bull didn't want to take any risks,specially when both cars crashed before.
     
  11. Ardius

    Ardius

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    No, the message wasn't exactly coded was it? The only "rule" is a general magic super rule which simply states:
    "Any action which brings the sport into disrepute" which is just a rule placed there as an excuse to penalise teams which do something really serious e.g. Austria 2002, Singapore 2008, etc etc.
    The teams only used to code their messages because of the team orders rule, the reason some teams were penalised through this was because of team orders or "disrepute". There is no rule against coding your messages however you like.

    There will be no investigation because the evidence is pretty clear and such team orders are perfectly legal. The sooner everyone accepts this, the better. Not that we have to enjoy seeing Webber commanded to slow down, but its not something that the sport can easily prevent.
     
  12. Wiegert

    Wiegert Premium

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    As Eddie Jordan pointed out after the race, it would have been embarrassing for the Red Bull team if Webber and Vettel had crashed into one another during the final stages of the race.
     
  13. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Its a little disturbing that Horner was effectively suggesting that letting Webber and Vettel race would always lead to crashing. Kind of suggests he can convince himself rather easily to impose team orders in any situation....

    Now, I kind of agree that Webber is very 50/50 when he overtakes people and can punt people off. But! But, this is no excuse for not letting him have a go anyway.
    Again, this is once more a case of Horner perhaps making the right decision but not saying the right thing..or rather not using the best wording ever.

    I find it amusing that Horner all season long last year stated they don't use team orders, blah blah. And now he's turning around saying its perfectly fine to use them. While this is obviously because last year they were "banned", its funny to see him make a mockery of the few people who tried to defend Red Bull/Horner/Marko and pretend there was never any team orders or preference at Red Bull.
     
  14. Moot

    Moot

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    Yes they didn't want a risk, but people could argue that Webber was faster so Vettel should have been told to let Webber past. Either way though a good race was called off.
    The fact that Horner has forgotten is that there is something much much more important than the team/Red Bull/other sponsors..... and that is the public themselves and what they think. They were deprived a battle, it has damaged Red Bull more as a team than if they lost both drivers, even if it meant them losing the championship. Failure is easily forgiven and forgotten, especially if it was exciting, resentment and deprivation is a dark cloud that lingers a long time. At the moment Horner defends his actions on behalf of the "team", which is a stupid argument, Red Bull is in an almost unique position because it is a product, a drink, it's sales will increase if it creates the right vibe for the F1 fans. So unlike other independent teams or manufacturers, championship points don't matter much, neither does the TV money for standings. More financially important is the vibe the team creates on behalf of the public. They have failed in this case. Horner has failed. And maybe Horner has failed as he is influenced by Red Bull founder Dietrich Mateschitz who favours Vettel, even though he says the team will "never" do team orders. Or Horner may have been thinking jsut too much about being a "normal" team principal, rather than one that should reflect on what's best for Red Bull the drinks company. If he was team principle for McLaren then he would have made the right decision, McLaren don't have any drinks to sell.
     
  15. Akmuq

    Akmuq

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    I can't see Mark Webber putting up with this for to much longer to be honest. He will probably defy Red Bull and Horner and it could lead to a big scandal.

    Not happy with Horner because he was critical of Ferrari when they used team orders last year. So, Alonso back in the hunt? The fact he was going faster then Vettel on merit for the last stint must have really put a spring in his step.
     
  16. Akira AC

    Akira AC

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    I agree,well partially,the battle between Vettel and Webber should have take place,however I'll put myself in the position of Hornet for a moment,and the first thing that I can think is the same situation with Button/Vettel in Canada,Vettel was already under pressure and Horner was not allowed to take any chances, specially considering the records and battles between the two drivers,the race was pretty much finish,and risking those constructors point just to provide a show is not the way that a team director thinks.

    As a F1 viewer I'm a bit biased by this,but understanding this with the context of "team orders allowed" does give you enough reason to think that it was the right call for RB(as a team,of course).
     
  17. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Hang on, "Deprived a battle"? :lol: Webber disobeyed the orders and tried to fight anyway! No one was deprived this weekend.
    Perhaps in future weekends, yes, or perhaps in previous races we have been. But clearly Webber is having none of it.

    Did I watch a different race to everyone else? Webber was clearly fighting Vettel all the way to the flag and now people are saying we were deprived a battle and they should be allowed to race? Red Bull were clearly trying to make it otherwise but we did see Webber and Vettel fight...are you people blind or mad?
     
  18. CarolinaBlue704

    CarolinaBlue704

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    Great to see a red car victory! Unfortunate race for Kobayashi and Paul di Resta. They had the pace all weekend but ran into some bad luck. Great drive by Perez. He continues to impress. Red Bull team orders... I feel for Webber.

    Very fun race. Also, I like the new Silverstone layout. :tup:
     
  19. Moot

    Moot

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    True, Horner "tried" to deprive us of a battle, but we kind of got one because Webber is stubborn.
     
  20. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    And I'm glad he is stubborn. He's already politely insulted them at Silverstone two years in a row now. :lol:

    I'd love to see the full post race interview and hear if he actually did acknowledge having disobeyed team orders.

    As I've said before, no way in hell would I lie down and back off of a perfectly legit overtake just because the team thinks we might crash into one another like we're half-assed or something. If he wants second then let him defend it, just like anyone else - which he did.
     
  21. Moot

    Moot

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    What you define as right for the team/Red Bull?
    Winning the championship and making €200million.
    Or losing the championship with many battles and crashes and "cool" racing but making €500million from increased sales?
    For Red Bull it must be the latter, Horner is only thinking of an F1 team principal role, rather than Red Bull. Maybe he will get further instruction from Red Bull management, but as I have said it might be complicated by the personal relationship between the founder and Vettel.
     
  22. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Winning the championship holds much more prestige and long-lasting marketing value than a "cool battle" that could potentially have been a big crash.

    People don't remember many 2nd-best finishers unless it was really dramatic..and well thats not really as predictable as the power of winning. You can't really orchestrate the drama of Hill v Schumacher or Prost v Senna.

    So of course Red Bull would rather win the championship than allow the drivers to race. In 2+ years, the average person won't remember this particular team order, they will simply see the "Championship Winners 2010, 2011".

    If it was so obvious, why do all the teams employ team orders to win the championship then?

    The teams are here to win, not to have a "cool battle".
     
  23. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

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    The Red Bull teams have had 22 wins. 16 of those came from Vettel. They didn't use team orders last year as team orders were illegal. They used team orders today, but Webber disobeyed. How many times does Vettel need to beat Webber for people to realize why Red Bull (may) favour Vettel. He's a product of their young driver team and has outshone Webber from the word go. Webber's had enough chances.

    Don't get me wrong, he can still fight, but I think if Red Bull are starting to favour Vettel, it's justified as he's bringing the lions' share of results. Put it this way, if you were in charge of a struggling midfield team and there was as big a performance deficit as there is at Red Bull, what would you do? Christian's job is to run a racing team. Currently, they're the best team in the highest category of the sport. Today, the best Red Bull could have achieved was a 1-2. They did that and their top performing driver extended his lead in the drivers championship. Win-Win.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  24. Akira AC

    Akira AC

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    As far as I know,the team is going for the championship,not drink sales,besides,I wont change my consideration of buying red bull just because I saw Webber pass Vettel or seeing Vettel crashing into Webber or Vettel holding against Webber.

    And they have to ensure a Driver Champion as well.
     
  25. Ardius

    Ardius

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    The problem most people have with it is that Vettel has such a dominant lead in the WDC and Red Bull in the WCC that its almost ridiculous to prevent the two drivers racing as the margins are so big, just as they were at Austria 2001 and 2002. Most people will say - so what if they collided? Vettel would still lead by a huge margin and its all assuming they would crash in the first place!

    I don't think anyone is surprised or doesn't understand why Red Bull would favour Vettel...its pretty bloody obvious!
     
  26. Moot

    Moot

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    Drinks are sold on spur of the moment basis (or addiction), this will happen from immediate consequences of a real time event or from short term memory. You don't buy a drink based on remembering who won a championship a year or 2 years ago. It's more likely because you have recently watched a race and perhaps later or the next day discuss it in a pub or something, and you might get a red bull, or you might get one at lunch time or something. Not related to championships. It's about what stays in the brain for what reason, but I accept that it is short term brain activity. But the "coolness" and "style" of the product does become embedded long term into the brain, perhaps even more so than championship status.

    I remember well the 7up livery of the F1 cars when I was a younger. I didn't know much about F1, or maybe even understand how a championship even works, but the colours were cool, and I new what 7up was, I think it made me more aware of the drink and I probably enjoyed it more and got an attachment to it in the subconscious. Would I be right in thinking the 7up cars were not championship leaders or winners?[​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    A reminder for me. It kind of shows that for a retail company, it' not all about winning, in this case it was just about their colours and logo that appealed, they didn't even have an ethos like Red Bull racing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  27. Akira AC

    Akira AC

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    [sarcasm]I was actually thinking the same exact thing when I saw Hornet backing up his drivers(*takes a sip Monster energy drink*)[/sarcasm]
     
  28. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    So what? That's no reason to tell Webber to back off because you think they might crash into one another. The hell does that say about your confidence in their race craft? And again, Vettel could have DNF'd...and still be in the lead by quite a margin. So what point did it really prove, other than "You can't pass Vettel because we want him to bring in more points than you because, well, he's a WDC and you're not."? Or whatever ulterior motive there is.

    Let them race. If Webber would have overtaken Vettel then oh :censored: well. If Vettel would have defended second and kept Mark behind him, then again, oh :censored: well. The point being the results shouldn't be "adjusted" when it doesn't really favor you, considering Vettel, again, has a huge points lead.
     
  29. F1 fan

    F1 fan Premium

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    Well according to Webber himself, he didn't obey the order, so we found out what happened anyway. I was pointing out that at that stage of the race, it's too risky especially when they were both looking set for the podium. It makes sense as a business and it makes sense as a team. You need to calm down. At least you can be safe in the knowledge that Webber doesn't pay too much attention to team orders.
     
  30. Terronium-12

    Terronium-12 Moderator

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    I don't need to do anything to be honest with you. Anything else?

    And let's see if you'd be saying the same thing if it were you being told to slow down.