2011 Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia

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To be fair schumi did hold him up for 10-12 laps, most of them unfairly!

It wasn't unfair, it's racing :lol:

And doesn't it seem like Schumi's confidence went up JUST a little more after he got his 5th place at Spa? Or is it that Merc's straight-line speed that helped him? I'm pretty sure a little bit of both. :dopey:
 
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I don't know where all this JB being a top driver comes from...not sure if this or last season is the first season people started watching F1, but some history reading on F1 shows that JB had good seasons before this. He's also a great driver just alot more smooth and patient. Hamilton need learn nothing from Button...his driving style works for him, but is just a more risky style. Why change to be like Button, when he is still winning races. The funny part is when he fails, he's stupid, yet when he makes a daring move with success everyone wants to say how brilliant it is...when it could have gone either way!!! Anyways, Vettel did a great job and doing what Alonso did not too long ago, even if he doesn't wrap it up in Singapore he'll do it in Japan. I'm not a Vettel fan but it is hard not to acknowledge his great skill, which he proved today.

The thing is that Button has always been on a level slightly below the absolute elite in F1. About the same as Massa and Webber, very good certainly but no one to go down in history as one of the greats in teh same manner as Hamilton may do, and Alonso, and Vettel if he keeps up the overtaking. There's no doubt that Button lucked out in the right car at the right time tombola when he found himself in the Brawn. This year though he has taken another step, going from being the guy who takes care of the tyres and comes home on the podium after everyone else made their mistake to being the guy who actually drives like a real champion in a non champion car. He has become Alain Prost's heir.
 
The thing is that Button has always been on a level slightly below the absolute elite in F1.


I see what you mean, and I think Webber should go down in the history books and though I can't stand Massa I think he should as well. The fact of the matter is they've won races and out of the three one has won a chapionship. You can have the best car in the world on that track but if the driver you have can't bring it home to victory or a championship it amounts to as much as a hill of beans. Button is the only guy I've seen come virtually from last to first and win the race. Button has said it himself, what really made him go all out and try harder was his crash at Monaco some years ago. You have many good points...

It wasn't unfair, it's racing :lol:

Says the user with the Shumi avatar which isn't so surprising
 
Another win for Vettel. The gear ratio concern turned out to be a non-issue--the RB7 just exploded out of the corners (it was noticeable from Alonso's camera), and combined with its clearly higher corner speed, meant Ferrari and Co. were no match whatsoever. Pretty disappointing as a fan but we've gotten accustomed to more parity over these past 3-4 years, putting aside the Brawn double diffuser car's relatively brief run. Congrats to Senna for scoring his first career championship points!

At this rate, The Finger will win the remaining 6 races pretty easily. This will be the most dominant season for a car/driver since what, 2002, when Schumacher won almost all the races. Actually, in a small, small way it's unfortunate for Vettel that the RB7 chassis is so demonstrably better than any other cars on the grid, since it's hard for him to prove how he is any better than say, Alonso or dispel any grumbling that 'it's all Adrian Newey' or 'he can't race, he's just a hot lapper.'

In other news, I think Montezemolo has a point... http://www.crash.net/f1/news/172966/1/montezemolo_f1_has_gone_the_wrong_way_on_testing.html. Maybe it is time to allow more testing. Hopefully that will bring the gap down between the backmarkers and rest of the grid.
 
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But for now, I still feel it's more his car than him.

Cases like this always make me want to ask a few questions. I know they're pretty repetitive but it's not like the Vettel fans aren't facing the same arguments ten times in a row every race so let's turn the tables a bit.

Did you feel the same way when Mansell drove the Williams in 1992?
Did you feel the same way when Prost drove the Williams in 1993?
Did you feel the same way when Schumacher drove the Benetton in 1994 and 1995?
Did you feel the same way when Hill drove the Williams in 1996?
Did you feel the same way when Villeneuve drove the Williams in 1997?
Did you feel the same way when Häkkinen drove the McLaren in 1998 and 1999?
Did you feel the same way when Schumacher drove the Ferrari in 2000-2004?
Did you feel the same way when Alonso drove the Renault in 2005 and 2006?
Did you feel the same way when Räikkönen drove the Ferrari in 2007?
Did you feel the same way when Hamilton drove the McLaren in 2008?
Did you feel the same way when Button drove the Brawn in 2009?

If the answer to any of those is "no" say hello to double standards. Every single one of those championships was won in a car that was equal to or better than anything else on the grid. And in the end the RB7 probably isn't as good as people make it out to be, look where Webber (reputed as a good driver himself) can get with it. He can barely challenge the McLarens and Ferraris which are far behind by the common opinion so is the car actually that much better than them, or does the difference really come from the driver in car #1?
 
Every single one of those championships was won in a car that was equal to or better than anything else on the grid.

Key distinction here, I think. Cars that are on par with each other, like say the '07 and '08 McLarens and Ferraris (and the Renaults in the Alonso years), can't really be lumped in with a car like the F2002 or the RB7.
 
Well, Webber has been having quite a lot of problems with tyres this year and has had all the bad luck at Red Bull. And he can challenge the Ferrari's and McLaren's pretty easily, not barely. I do think the Red Bull RB7 is more dominant then the Brawn, McLaren's and Ferrari's going back to '07, but I do think Vettel has been the best driver this season. If he was in a car equal to the opposition, I'd say he would still be leading the championship, but he's wheel-to-wheel skills would be more important cause he wouldn't have pole all the time.


Brilliant car, brilliant driver. Who cares if he can't overtake quite like some of the others, he can get the job done most of the time since he has the faster car and then he lets his real skills set to work, i.e. Getting away.
 
So according to Formula 1 Official Website, seems like Liuzzi will be handed a 5 place grid penalty for the Singaporean GP which I think is useless considering that he will be at the back of the grid anyway... Should've been something that has a clear effect for taking out Petrov, Rosberg and damaging Barrichello's race of which all of those 3 drivers could've shown us a very good race.
 
Interesting race, some decent battles but perhaps not quite as tense as other races. Just a shame some cars were bouncing off the limiter so early on the straights with DRS.

Good to see Senna and Di Resta up in the points.
 
It was a pretty boring race, Schumi and Button drove well and Vettel ran away as usual.
I was sad to see that Rosberg didn't get a chance to prove himself, since we saw that Monza suited the Mercedes' car. Oh well, and a great drive by Algersuari.
Perez deserved the points he was on the way to, sad to see Sauber failing in this race.
 
I wish Button would learn how to start a race... Still, he did drive a massively intelligent race after that - preserving the gaps to first Hamilton and then Alonso when he didn't need to pass them and waiting for the inevitable when he could pass them without a fight. Watching him cruise up past Hamilton and then Schumacher, doing in one corner what Hamilton failed to do in ten laps, must have been absolutely crushing for Hamilton - but rather than rag his tyres silly making attempt after attempt to pass only to fail, he just pottered round and used his happy tyres to get clean round the grumpy tyres on his teammate and Schumacher. He benefitted from Webber's... optimism (let's be kind) taking himself and Massa out, mind.

Schumacher drove a fantastic defensive race but there was a clear double-move between Roggia and Lesmo 1. Very naughty - we've seen penalties for less. Spoiled an otherwise excellent performance from him.

Vettel... Beginning to bore me a bit. At least this race he passed someone - and excellently too, a really nice pass - but once isn't enough to dispell the questions over his passing ability. Fair enough, he's rarely required to demonstrate it when he sticks it on pole and buggers off into the distance but it's still not clear whether he's as good as Button or Schumacher nor as exciting as Hamilton or Alonso in that part of his racecraft.

Liuzzi was damned unlucky. He gave (someone) a little too much breathing space on the approach to Rettifilo and dipped a rear onto the grass. Tankslapper ensued and he was just a passenger after that. Really harsh to penalise him, but he did stick his car into five other people's races.

Big fat boo-hiss to Barrichello who, presuming he was pitting out of the way, blithely blundered through blue flags and nearly ended up braketesting Button into the pit entry line. And Webber drove like an utter dick - how he got from Rettifilo to Parabolica claiming he was unaware he had no front wing escapes me. He came within a few whiskers of blatting through the back of (someone) by failing to drive appropriately and putting himself off. Plus he lost the wing all by himself anyway - Massa had the line in Rettifilo and Webber took to the Dukes of Hazzard ramp rather than going the long way round like everyone else somehow managed, costing Massa a potential top 4 finish.

Big fat hurrah to Di Resta getting more points and to Sir James "Squire" Unpronouncable for once again proving that joining the newbies by falling out at Q1 leads to points on Sunday.
 
Don't know if it's been mentioned but the booing from the fans when Vettel & Button received trophys was disgusting imo. Yes they probably are all revved up for Alonso/Ferrari but show some respect.
 
Big fat boo-hiss to Barrichello who, presuming he was pitting out of the way, blithely blundered through blue flags and nearly ended up braketesting Button into the pit entry line. And Webber drove like an utter dick - how he got from Rettifilo to Parabolica claiming he was unaware he had no front wing escapes me.

I'd forgotten about those incidents. The Button/Barrichello near-miss wouldn't have been an issue had Rubens not been dithering about instead of letting Button past under blue flags, and then he made it worse by slowing down by a ridiculous amount at the pit entrance too.

And I too was surprised that Webber carried on at race pace when he was very obviously sans a wing. I know F1 cars aren't easy to see out of but he must have seen bits flying when he clouted Massa and I can't believe he had no understeer around the other 3/4 of the circuit after that incident before sailing off at Parabolica.
 
It was a fun race to watch. Awful moves by Webber at the first laps, the result was his race ending pretty soon.

It was funny to see Hamilton going to all that trouble trying to overtake MS and when he did it Schumacher took the position back right away, then Button gets passed Hamilton and overtakes MS right after. :lol:

Button was definitely the man of the race.
 
I see what you mean, and I think Webber should go down in the history books and though I can't stand Massa I think he should as well. The fact of the matter is they've won races and out of the three one has won a chapionship. You can have the best car in the world on that track but if the driver you have can't bring it home to victory or a championship it amounts to as much as a hill of beans. Button is the only guy I've seen come virtually from last to first and win the race. Button has said it himself, what really made him go all out and try harder was his crash at Monaco some years ago. You have many good points...



Says the user with the Shumi avatar which isn't so surprising

Well of course, but he did a good job on defending his spot from Hamilton. But his double blocking maneuver WAS questionable. Any word on what the stewards say about that? :sly:
 
I wish Button would learn how to start a race... Still, he did drive a massively intelligent race after that - preserving the gaps to first Hamilton and then Alonso when he didn't need to pass them and waiting for the inevitable when he could pass them without a fight. Watching him cruise up past Hamilton and then Schumacher, doing in one corner what Hamilton failed to do in ten laps, must have been absolutely crushing for Hamilton - but rather than rag his tyres silly making attempt after attempt to pass only to fail, he just pottered round and used his happy tyres to get clean round the grumpy tyres on his teammate and Schumacher. He benefitted from Webber's... optimism (let's be kind) taking himself and Massa out, mind.

Schumacher drove a fantastic defensive race but there was a clear double-move between Roggia and Lesmo 1. Very naughty - we've seen penalties for less. Spoiled an otherwise excellent performance from him.

Vettel... Beginning to bore me a bit. At least this race he passed someone - and excellently too, a really nice pass - but once isn't enough to dispell the questions over his passing ability. Fair enough, he's rarely required to demonstrate it when he sticks it on pole and buggers off into the distance but it's still not clear whether he's as good as Button or Schumacher nor as exciting as Hamilton or Alonso in that part of his racecraft.

Liuzzi was damned unlucky. He gave (someone) a little too much breathing space on the approach to Rettifilo and dipped a rear onto the grass. Tankslapper ensued and he was just a passenger after that. Really harsh to penalise him, but he did stick his car into five other people's races.

Big fat boo-hiss to Barrichello who, presuming he was pitting out of the way, blithely blundered through blue flags and nearly ended up braketesting Button into the pit entry line. And Webber drove like an utter dick - how he got from Rettifilo to Parabolica claiming he was unaware he had no front wing escapes me. He came within a few whiskers of blatting through the back of (someone) by failing to drive appropriately and putting himself off. Plus he lost the wing all by himself anyway - Massa had the line in Rettifilo and Webber took to the Dukes of Hazzard ramp rather than going the long way round like everyone else somehow managed, costing Massa a potential top 4 finish.

Big fat hurrah to Di Resta getting more points and to Sir James "Squire" Unpronouncable for once again proving that joining the newbies by falling out at Q1 leads to points on Sunday.

Agree with all of the above except the bit about Webber. He knew his front wing was gone, he didn't know it was stuck under the car though so he was taken by suprise when he stepped on the brake and had no front grip.

It was a silly move on Massa though, it was never going to work. I don't believe him when he says he tried to get out of it but the kerb launched him into the air and he couldn't do anything. The replays show he kept the wheels on the ground and just drove in to him.
 
*Lap 19: LH fancies 4th place*
*Lap 21: LH fancies 4th place*


It was a nice battle to watch, a bit illegal(arguably) but fun to watch, good race by JB and good race by Vettel, however the race became incredibly boring after the first half.

I believe that there was a possibility for McLaren to win the GP, but Schumacher had a great effect on the race for them, it was a great defensive race for Schumacher which I believe gave huge advantage to Vettel in the front.
 
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Even if Shumi hadn't held them up, I still think Vettel would have nailed it.

And the race was finished after the second half! :odd:
 
Agree with all of the above except the bit about Webber. He knew his front wing was gone, he didn't know it was stuck under the car though so he was taken by suprise when he stepped on the brake and had no front grip.

Not having a front wing (which provides front downforce and thus mechanical grip) and trying to brake into Parabolica at the same speed as undamaged traffic in front of you will only ever result in pain. It was properly bone-headed.
 
The thing is that Button has always been on a level slightly below the absolute elite in F1. About the same as Massa and Webber, very good certainly but no one to go down in history as one of the greats in teh same manner as Hamilton may do, and Alonso, and Vettel if he keeps up the overtaking. There's no doubt that Button lucked out in the right car at the right time tombola when he found himself in the Brawn. This year though he has taken another step, going from being the guy who takes care of the tyres and comes home on the podium after everyone else made their mistake to being the guy who actually drives like a real champion in a non champion car. He has become Alain Prost's heir.

Well in the 2004 season he trounced everybody except the Ferraris who were very dominant and reliable that year. He showed back then that he had the ability to be a great driver. He has pace, he has consistency, his overtaking ability is among the best in F1 and he's got a likeable personality. Last year he was overly cautious in the races, often getting stuck behind slow cars for large parts of the race and generally underperformed. I guess in a way the Pirelli tyres have played right into his hands, he can keep up a consistent pace over a stint, whereas over drivers tend to go a little bit faster earlier in the stint but drop off sooner. He doesn't extend the overall life of the tyre, he extends the performance of the tyre.

The championship this year is over. Both the RB7 and Vettel have been perfect. Vettel even showed today he can overtake, but it could have been cleaner (i.e. not having to go on the grass). But, I feel the greatest factor this year has been the Red Bull reliability. Last year they were lucky if both cars finished. This year their reliability in the races has been flawless apart from for KERS issues, but it has allowed them to finish every race and pick up points. This season is going how last season should have gone if it were not for the poor reliability.

The race today was good. One highlight for me is when Lewis came on the radio saying the car was too slow in a straightline :lol: He was topping out at 229kph with KERS and DRS and Schumacher was doing 230-231kph without DRS. Maybe it has something to do with the huge wing Mclaren were running, when the Mercedes wing had nothing visible when the DRS was open.

I feel sorry for Petrov and Rosberg. Rosberg especially would have come very good in the race due to his strategy. Senna was unlucky to have been caught up in it all aswell, somewhere he lost his front wing and this put him at the back, an excellent recovery from him to get points.
 
I said to my brother when Button got past Hamilton that I'd bet he would overtake Schumacher on his first attempt and Button did it. Schumacher must have used all his kers to defend against Lewis and was left without any tools to protect himself from Button. That was not the main reason why I thought Button would get past quickly though as you could see that Schumacher's tyres had started going off. I'm sure he pitted on the same lap that Lewis lost the place to Button and Button overtook Schumacher. If only Lewis played the waiting game for a minute longer, he could have finished in 2nd place, not fourth. It is always ifs and buts with F1 when the margins are so fine.

Looks like Vettel has won now both the crowns from Lewis and Fernando of being the youngest champions for their number of titles.
 
Interesting that Vettel is now the only driver with no retirements this season. (Except Senna and de la Rosa, though you can barely count them)
 
Not having a front wing (which provides front downforce and thus mechanical grip) and trying to brake into Parabolica at the same speed as undamaged traffic in front of you will only ever result in pain. It was properly bone-headed.

Perhaps you don't grasp the part where his front wing became stuck underneath the car? The BBC team completely missed that but as he ran up to Parabolica, there was still a sizable piece of front wing stuck underneath the front-tray of the car and it appeared to get worse down that straight..hence the front lifting up and him having no front braking ability (due to the obvious basic physics of the wheels not being in contact with the ground at all.)

Do we all really think Webber is that stupid?
 
Perhaps you don't grasp the part

This is why you keep getting yourself into fights in these threads. Instead of wording things in a manner that makes people think you think other people are dumber than you, try it in an inquisitive manner instead. Like...

Did you notice the bit

where his front wing became stuck underneath the car? The BBC team completely missed that but as he ran up to Parabolica, there was still a sizable piece of front wing stuck underneath the front-tray of the car and it appeared to get worse down that straight..hence the front lifting up and him having no front braking ability.

Do we all really think Webber is that stupid?

Is stupid enough not to notice the front of his car lifting up better or worse than stupid enough not to notice he didn't have a front wing for three quarters of a lap - and then say on camera he knew there was "some damage" but not that "it had gone completely"? How did he manage to miss noticing that "it had gone completely" after driving it from Rettifilo through to Parabolica (that's a bendy straight, a chicane, a DRS straight, a chicane and a straight)? Is the OTBD of the RB7 so efficient that a world-championship-challenging driver can do 205mph and not spot at any point that he's missing 40% of his downforce?

He then approached Parabolica at normalish speed either with no front downforce or with no front downforce and his nose off the deck (note: his wheels turned as they were in contact with the ground, until he hit the brakes when, due to the brakes being designed to slow the car down with normal tyre loading, they locked up good and proper). That's beyond stupid and well into reckless.
 
Is stupid enough not to notice the front of his car lifting up better or worse than stupid enough not to notice he didn't have a front wing for three quarters of a lap - and then say on camera he knew there was "some damage" but not that "it had gone completely"? How did he manage to miss noticing that "it had gone completely" after driving it from Rettifilo through to Parabolica (that's a bendy straight, a chicane, a DRS straight, a chicane and a straight)? Is the OTBD of the RB7 so efficient that a world-championship-challenging driver can do 205mph and not spot at any point that he's missing 40% of his downforce?

He then approached Parabolica at normalish speed either with no front downforce or with no front downforce and his nose off the deck (note: his wheels turned as they were in contact with the ground, until he hit the brakes when, due to the brakes being designed to slow the car down with normal tyre loading, they locked up good and proper). That's beyond stupid and well into reckless.

I dont remember seeing on TV (may have missed it) footage of Webber driving the rest of that lap and what sort of speeds/braking effectiveness he had. I can only assume that he approached the Parabolica using the information he got from his speed through Ascari. There is no way he could have known that the wing moved under his car on the straight. If he was being stupid or reckless (after the initial incident), he would have been nose into the wall at one of the Lesmos
 
If we are assuming Webber took the corner thinking he could take it at full racing speed with no front wing, then how did he get around the rest of the lap?
Something doesn't add up here in this. I choose to believe it was the very visible broken piece of wing stuck underneath his car which it is very reasonble to assume he wouldn't know about - similar accidents have occured to other drivers in the past when they didn't know there bits of wing stuck there.

How did he get through a corner like Ascari at full speed with no front wing? He must have backed off knowing he was missing front downforce. So why would he then decide to try and attack Parabolica?
Its suggesting an astounding level of stupidity - I find it hard to believe even Webber can suffer such brainfade.

And as for suggesting anyone was dumber than me, I guess that's just your interpretation of how I was toning my post. I apologise if that was how it sounded. Though I don't understand how you can read DQuaN's post and give the response you did.
 
While it's not attached to the car, it's not providing downforce. It was not attached to the car from Rettifilo and thus not providing downforce from Rettifilo. He approached Parabolica at, or about, the speed of the cars around him (I think the car directly ahead was Perez) and for a car running 40% less downforce to approach a 200-to-130mph, 20 metre braking zone at 90% (let's be generous and say it wasn't equal) of the speed of an uncompromised car is optimistic at best. Moreso than the move that lost him the wing in the first place.

However, he stated, on TV, that he knew the wing was damaged but that he was unaware "it had gone completely". Which begs the question of how he got from what's essentially the first corner to what's essentially the last corner without noticing he was down 40% of his downforce - and what were he and his engineer talking about in that minute of track time - in order to then come at Parabolica at such an inappropriate speed?


Though I don't understand how you can read DQuaN's post and give the response you did.

The front wheels were both on the deck. We know this because they were rotating and an F1 car isn't FWD with a locked diff. The reason his front brakes locked up was because without the mechanical grip provided by the front wing on the front tyres at the ~190mph he came at Parabolica, he was asking brakes designed for repeated hard stops of 5G+ to stop tyres barely troubling 1.5G of vertical loading. I will agree that a reduced contact patch won't help, but surely a championship-contending driver can feel a car lifting? Then again, surely they can spot they're missing front downforce after driving around for a minute.

As noted above though, you are right in that it's stunningly, jawdeskingly bizarre that he approached Parabolica at that kind of speed after doing a minute of driving missing nearly half of his aero package and, according to his interview, being unaware that his front wing had "gone completely". What we know is that he didn't know his wing was gone (he stated it) and that he approached Parabolica at nearly race speed (we saw it). It almost beggars belief that neither he nor his race engineer, in that minute of driving, picked up on it but he did clearly state "I knew it was damaged, but I didn't know it had gone completely"...


Ultimately he made two gross errors in his race and, luckily, only one affected another driver. I think he's rapidly approaching the end of his career.
 
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Liuzzi blame Kovalainen for his accident?
I blame his stupidity for sure. :crazy:
 
Liuzzi blame Kovalainen for his accident?
I blame his stupidity for sure. :crazy:

Unless Kovalainen forced him onto the grass (which he didn't) then it would have been his fault. Liuzzi tried taking a line that was already too close for comfort and suffered as a result of it, worse thing is he smashed into several other drivers because he didn't have sense enough to back off.
 
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