2011 Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia

[Famine]

Guys, I'd like to know why is that the rev on all the cars bounce up and down on the straights? It sounded like they gain a gear, and drop back that gear and all of a sudden they gain a gear and the rev drops..? Is it because of the KERS which I think it couldn't be...

EDIT: Or is it my TV?

EDIT: No it couldn't be my TV...

It'll be a combination of local air density and harmonic beat frequencies.

To clarify, in the case of the former, the cars will be approaching their aerodynamic speed limit - the speed at which they cannot physically go any faster because they have run out of sufficient power to overcome air resistance. If they pass through pockets of higher or lower air density - specifically turbulent air that is coming off other cars, or shady spots of track - air resistance will be different and they will either be able to go a hair faster (if it reduces) or will be forcibly decelerated by air density (if it increases). A one percent change in air density will result in a change of air resistance by one percent (at those speeds in those cars, it's nigh-on 20lb change in almost a ton's worth of air resistance) and it'll result in a change of around 200rpm in best and worst case scenarios.

For the latter, the engines are spinning at 17,500rpm and are quite high frequency. This will interact with other sound frequencies (even the commentators!) and possibly even the frequencies at which the recording equipment captures sound. Superimpose two sound waves of differing frequencies on top of each other and a third frequency, called a "beat" frequency, emerges producing a sound at a frequency equal to the difference between the other two.

Sound. It's a funny old business.

 

[daan]

Back to my other question before, When was the last time the top 5 finishers were all world champions?

I reckon that's never happened before. This season has 5 WC all still racing and that is very rare in itself. Webber or someone else has always got in there to ruin it so far this season.

There were 5 champions in most of the 1970 season (Stewart, Brabham, Hill, Surtees and Hulme) but they never managed a 1-5 either.

 

[Sureboss]

And if Webber flunks the rest of the season, will it be the first time the Top 5 in the WDC have all been World Champions?

 

[PeterJB]

I doubt Schumacher will overtake him in the standings, he's 115 points behind.

 

[Danny]

at the couple of members going into all caps rage with Liuzzi. 'Permanent race ban'? .

I don't know if you've noticed, but when he hit the other cars, he was near enough going backwards. Grass tends to do that. Get over it.

Other than that, a good race. Heroic performance from Alguersuari.

 

[Hollidog]

Watching it I thought Hamilton and Button had swapped helmet designs. Lewis was a shadow of his former self whilst Button showed aggression matched to quality. Hamilton finally gets past Schumacher only to leave the door wide open.... then Button pulls off a sensational move to pass Hamilton and another (was it on the same lap?) to pass Schumacher first chance he got. Even with the lesson in overtaking it still took Hamilton a long time to finally make it stick, and his race was over. He did well to catch Alonso at the end, but should have beaten him.

I agree with you about Hamilton, he seemed to ruin his own weekend there. McLaren should have been the team to beat this weekend and I think we all expected Hamilton to lead it. Instead he made a silly mistake in qualifying and put himself into a poor position from the outset.

Then, the race starts, he ends up behind Schumacher, and can't get past him for I think more than ten laps. Hamilton has definitely changed somehow and it is showing.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

This season has knocked him for six. The bad guy image, Button more than matching him, Vettel walking it, Red Bull seemingly trying to turn his head, mistakes, and countless stewards meetings. His management have got to get his head back in the game for 2012 and its a long uphill battle from where he seems to be at the moment, very wounded.

I was adamant that given the VERY poor restart after the safety car and seemingly moving aside for Schumacher that he'd been advised to, but he stated afterwards he was caught napping... very poor. He only passed Schumacher because he missed a gear as well and hit the limiter. Wonder how long he would have been stuck behind otherwise.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Schumacher had a higher top speed than Hamilton. Around Monza that's usually enough to protect you from being overtaken. It's more about Hamilton being more... careful this race.

As I posted during the race, Button gave Hamilton a master class in how to be a race driver in Monza.

He did a similar thing in Spa as well, deliberately dropping out of the slipstream so as not to pass too soon on the straight unlike Hamilton who charged up to Kobayashi and passed him ASAP. That allowed Kobayashi to come back at him and we all know what happened then.

 

[Pupik]

I reckon that's never happened before. This season has 5 WC all still racing and that is very rare in itself. Webber or someone else has always got in there to ruin it so far this season.

There were 5 champions in most of the 1970 season (Stewart, Brabham, Hill, Surtees and Hulme) but they never managed a 1-5 either.

I want to say there's a race in 1967 were you had a large talent pool entering and finishing the race, but I'm not sure which.
Edit: 1967 Italian GP - Surtees, Brabham, Clark, Rindt (the latter would be world champ).

I think the 1991 United States GP featured Senna, Prost, and Piquet for a total of 10 past + future world championships.
Edit: 1991 Italian GP - Mansell, Senna, Prost, Berger, Schumacher, Piquet (eventually 18 championships among the top 6, plus Hakkinen in 14th place with an eventual 2 more...for a total of 20).

We'll definitely look back with some awe over the level of talent we have in F1 right now! Just think that six years ago the only present WC was Schumacher.

 

[lbsf1]

It'll be a combination of local air density and harmonic beat frequencies.

To clarify, in the case of the former, the cars will be approaching their aerodynamic speed limit - the speed at which they cannot physically go any faster because they have run out of sufficient power to overcome air resistance. If they pass through pockets of higher or lower air density - specifically turbulent air that is coming off other cars, or shady spots of track - air resistance will be different and they will either be able to go a hair faster (if it reduces) or will be forcibly decelerated by air density (if it increases). A one percent change in air density will result in a change of air resistance by one percent (at those speeds in those cars, it's nigh-on 20lb change in almost a ton's worth of air resistance) and it'll result in a change of around 200rpm in best and worst case scenarios.

For the latter, the engines are spinning at 17,500rpm and are quite high frequency. This will interact with other sound frequencies (even the commentators!) and possibly even the frequencies at which the recording equipment captures sound. Superimpose two sound waves of differing frequencies on top of each other and a third frequency, called a "beat" frequency, emerges producing a sound at a frequency equal to the difference between the other two.

Sound. It's a funny old business.

If he's listening in Surround sound then it could be a binuaral beat effect (A slightly different sound played in each ear that creates a beating effect).

 

[Seismica]

I agree with you about Hamilton, he seemed to ruin his own weekend there. McLaren should have been the team to beat this weekend and I think we all expected Hamilton to lead it. Instead he made a silly mistake in qualifying and put himself into a poor position from the outset.

Then, the race starts, he ends up behind Schumacher, and can't get past him for I think more than ten laps. Hamilton has definitely changed somehow and it is showing.

I don't think Hamilton has changed, I just think the car has been developed in order to cater for Button as he was having the most problems with the car, whereas Hamilton can drive around problems like that. This means Hamilton doesn't stand out as much, but he is still one heck of a driver. It's good that he raced cautiously in Monza and I hope he continues it to avoid incidents like in Monaco and Spa.

With Schumacher at Monza it was difficult as Schumacher had a faster car in a straight line. Like at Spa, Button seemed to have more straightline speed (1-2 kph, which was enough to match the Mercedes, but better under braking too) which will have contributed to his overtake of Schumacher. Not to mention Schumacher's tyres were going off and he got a poor exit out of the second Lesmo corner, which allowed Jenson to get ahead for the braking zone into Ascari. Hamilton just had a bit of bad luck this time around, it wasn't really his fault.

I want this Red Bull dominance to end. I want it to be a 5 contructor fight for the WDC next year, with Vettel, Webber, Button, Hamilton, Alonso, Massa, Rosberg, Schumacher, Kubica and Senna/Petrov/Grojean all in for a shot. But that's not going to happen, is it

Less of this:

And more of this:

Lewis sees Vettel's finger and raises it with a fist:

 

[Peter.]

It means he starts behind the doctor's car, but yeah, it is a bit pointless.

A 5 place grid penalty is a standardized penalty given to a driver for any unavoidable accidents. Liuzzi gets a 5 place grid penalty all the same as anyone else, regardless of what car he drives. If he qualifies 18th, he'll be demoted to 24th, if he qualifies 23rd, then he goes back to 24th. Simple. Not pointless, it's punishment.

 

[daan]

I want to say there's a race in 1967 were you had a large talent pool entering and finishing the race, but I'm not sure which.
Edit: 1967 Italian GP - Surtees, Brabham, Clark, Rindt (the latter would be world champ).

I think the 1991 United States GP featured Senna, Prost, and Piquet for a total of 10 past + future world championships.
Edit: 1991 Italian GP - Mansell, Senna, Prost, Berger, Schumacher, Piquet (eventually 18 championships among the top 6, plus Hakkinen in 14th place with an eventual 2 more...for a total of 20).

I think you're missing the point. Using your example of the 1991 Italian GP, that wasn't even won by a world champion. I know Mansell won it in '92 but he can't be counted as a WC in '91, and neither could Schumacher or Hakkinen. In Small_fryz's question, I don't think championships can be counted retrospectively. That would be like saying that the 2011 Italian GP had 6 WC's in the top 6, 'cos Massa will win it one year...

A 5 place grid penalty is a standardized penalty given to a driver for any unavoidable accidents. Liuzzi gets a 5 place grid penalty all the same as anyone else, regardless of what car he drives. If he qualifies 18th, he'll be demoted to 24th, if he qualifies 23rd, then he goes back to 24th. Simple. Not pointless, it's punishment.

A 5 place grid penalty for someone who has never qualified higher than 21st is not much of a penalty, when you consider that he cannot start lower than 24th. A 5 place penalty for a top or midfield team is much more of a penalty than a team that is going to qualify at the back of the grid will receive. Although, any grid penalty, or any time penalty for an HRT is pointless. They're going to be last anyway.

 

[Sureboss]

A 5 place grid penalty is a standardized penalty given to a driver for any unavoidable accidents. Liuzzi gets a 5 place grid penalty all the same as anyone else, regardless of what car he drives. If he qualifies 18th, he'll be demoted to 24th, if he qualifies 23rd, then he goes back to 24th. Simple. Not pointless, it's punishment.

I'd like to give you a Captain Obvious hat, but I'd only be wasting the time of some child labourer in China.

 

[PeterJB]

I bet Singapore will be the one time Liuzzi breaks out of Q1 only to be sent flying back into it!

 

[Ardius]

I want this Red Bull dominance to end. I want it to be a 5 contructor fight for the WDC next year, with Vettel, Webber, Button, Hamilton, Alonso, Massa, Rosberg, Schumacher, Kubica and Senna/Petrov/Grojean all in for a shot. But that's not going to happen, is it

Its rare already to have more than 2 teams fighting at the very front, we had 3 last year and we had 3 in 2008 (almost anyway).
I really doubt we will see Mercedes or Renault making the step forward required, neither have the same kind of budget or resources that the top 3 teams currently have.

It would be nice to have a surprise team switch-around though but the best we can hope for without a major rule change is for the midfield teams to change around. That or one of the major teams loses some major sponsors or gradually messes up their designs.

 

[niky]

Interesting thoughts on the car being re-tooled for Button... but if that makes Hamilton slower? Or is it simply Hamilton could outperform a twitchy car more easily? McLaren might want a two-tier program... though they can't complain about the competitiveness of their package this year... just the competitiveness of their provisional number one driver...

One thing I didn't get was this idea that Vettel had proven he can overtake and race wheel to wheel. He performed one very gutsy move on Alonso yes, but its not in the realms of a win from >10th on the grid we have seen the others perform.

Quality versus quantity? Although the quality of overtakes Button and Alonso perform regularly from poor starts is unquestionable.

Then again, there is the thought that the RBRs in these past two races have had more mechanical grip to balance the aero grip, so they're not outright disasters when pulling out of the slipstream like in years past.

Then again, again, there is the thought that McLaren and Ferrari already have that mechanical grip advantage over Red Bull...

 

[Ardius]

Unsurprising to see people reaching for the "its the car" excuse again, when Button does badly, its all Button's fault and Hamilton's genius that they end where they end up..but when Hamilton does badly its the car that has caused Button to do better than him?

Rubbish. Hamilton has clearly been faster most of the year in this car, even in low downforce setup. The problem isn't his ability in this car, setup or whatever. Its his mindset - it couldn't be clearer from Spa to Monza that Lewis' head is not screwed on right at the moment.

 

[niky]

Hence: they can't complain about the competitiveness of the car... it's just the alpha-dog driver they should be worried about. He's finally got a car that can realistically beat Red Bull... but he's not doing the job properly...

 

[Ardius]

I don't know about that, even the Macca is a little bit off Red Bull, they tend to have to rely on better strategy calls to beat Vettel. But I agree somewhat that both Hamilton and Button could have been in a better position this year based purely on the pace they have shown to have at each race.
Vettel would still be leading but perhaps the McLaren drivers would be a little more in it on points.

I think while Button does struggle more than most with a car he doesn't like, I don't see this as a valid excuse for why Hamilton couldn't hook it together as well as him at Monza. Unless we are admitting even Hamilton can struggle with a car?
No, I think Lewis' adaptability with a race car more than makes up for any struggles he might have had, I believe if Hamilton had his head in the right place that he would have been well ahead of Button on Sunday and maybe had have challenged Vettel for the win. And I'm not a Hamilton fan.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Watching it I thought Hamilton and Button had swapped helmet designs. Lewis was a shadow of his former self whilst Button showed aggression matched to quality. Hamilton finally gets past Schumacher only to leave the door wide open.... then Button pulls off a sensational move to pass Hamilton and another (was it on the same lap?) to pass Schumacher first chance he got. Even with the lesson in overtaking it still took Hamilton a long time to finally make it stick, and his race was over. He did well to catch Alonso at the end, but should have beaten him.

Did you not see Shumi block a few times...? He was also faster in the straight lines...which is a big point on Monza with as many fast sections as it has. I don't understand the door wide open for Button. Shumi was racing Hamilton and Button caught up due to that, so I'm guessing shumi saw both McLaren and was only going to allow one to pass. Hamilton didn't pass Shumi only to have Button pass both. Hamilton passed shumi a few laps after button passed them up. Ross Brawn even came over the radio twice telling Shumi to leave room and quit blocking... I mean every time after the race it seems people just seem to see a race they want. However, I could be slightly reading your post wrong. Hamilton couldn't possibly beat Alonso even if he had the RBR...he was too far back due to racing with Shumi . Lewis was catching yes, but when you correlate when he started catching Alonso and how many laps were left you'll see it was out of his hands. Unless of course Alonso screwed up his own race which is highly unlikely.

I'd like to give you a Captain Obvious hat, but I'd only be wasting the time of some child labourer in China.

Sir you are too funny...there are a few that seem to take the F1 rules far too seriously but I see where you come from. The comment though...pure greatness.

 

[Ardius]

Schumi did not "let" Button past..he was hanging on as far as he could into the braking zone for Ascari. He simply lacked the traction out of Lesmos as his tyres were more worn than Button's - he lacked the speed at that particular moment to cover off Button's approach as he had with Hamilton.
Hamilton had also worn his tyres just as much messing about trying to get past Schumacher - he probably would have made an identical move as Jenson did if he hadn't tried to get past at Curva Grande though perhaps not due to wearing his tyres more than Jenson.

I think the main thing that Hamilton did wrong with Schumi was to keep trying to find a way past and fight with him for too long. Perhaps if he had backed off a little and tried to conserve his tyres and go for the undercut during pit stops, he might not have ended up back behind him. But understandable that he wanted to find a way past ASAP. Hindsight and all stuff really.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Schumi did not "let" Button past..he was hanging on as far as he could into the braking zone for Ascari. He simply lacked the traction out of Lesmos as his tyres were more worn than Button's - he lacked the speed at that particular moment to cover off Button's approach as he had with Hamilton.
Hamilton had also worn his tyres just as much messing about trying to get past Schumacher - he probably would have made an identical move as Jenson did if he hadn't tried to get past at Curva Grande though perhaps not due to wearing his tyres more than Jenson.

I think the main thing that Hamilton did wrong with Schumi was to keep trying to find a way past and fight with him for too long. Perhaps if he had backed off a little and tried to conserve his tyres and go for the undercut during pit stops, he might not have ended up back behind him. But understandable that he wanted to find a way past ASAP. Hindsight and all stuff really.

I see what you mean, but it was one of those things that he had to go, right then and there. If he was in a podium spot I understand him conserving. I'm sure his race engineer told him that Button was fast and catching and that's probably another reason why he wanted to get around Shumi. I don't know exactly there are some things that don't allow us to know all the answers to these small debates or point outs. A bit of speculation I suppose, but either way Hamilton had a solid weekend even if it wasn't a podium. Really at this point I think the McLaren boys should concentrate on trying to catch RBR in constructor if they still have a chance.

 

[Peter.]

A 5 place grid penalty for someone who has never qualified higher than 21st is not much of a penalty, when you consider that he cannot start lower than 24th. A 5 place penalty for a top or midfield team is much more of a penalty than a team that is going to qualify at the back of the grid will receive. Although, any grid penalty, or any time penalty for an HRT is pointless. They're going to be last anyway.

Right, let's not give them a penalty because they will be last anyway at the next race, because we can predict the future. It is 100% certain that they will be last anyway, so it's pointless.

I know that chances are Liuzzi won't go any higher than 21st, so it wouldn't do any harm, but the penalty is there, so that if he does go anywhere higher than 24th, he'll just be bumped back down.

 

[niky]

Hamilton just wasted his tires behind Schumi. He knew he didn't have the straightline speed... McLaren have not had that over Mercedes this year, since they're both using Merc engines and the Mercs have less downforce, yet he kept making half-hearted moves down the straight. He could have waited for Schumi to lose those rear tires before setting up one effective pass, instead of trying dozens of impossible ones.

Hamilton has shown, at other points in this season, the ability to conserve tires just as well as Button, or even better. He could have vaulted himself up onto the podium past Alonso and Button if he'd done so after finding himself behind Michael.

Bit sad, though, that they didn't penalize Schumacher for the double-blocks, despite McLaren's complaints to the stewards... but he did desist after his team told him too. Schumacher did just enough to keep his place after that. Great defense there.

 

[Peter.]

Don't listen to the BBC's British driver bias, Schumacher did not make 2 moves. There is a difference between defending position and lining up for the next corner. Schumacher's moves, while borderline in regards to that, was still seen as legal by he stewards. He didn't even go under investigation for it.

 

[astrosdude91]

So win number 18 puts Sebastian Vettel on par with Kimi Raikkonen for 13th overall in the all time wins column. So if he wins the rest of the races this season (and we know this may very well happen), he'll be tied with Juan Manuel Fangio for 9th all time, and one behind Jim Clark and Niki Lauda. That's pretty big company, and only at the age of 24!

 

[ghskilla]

So win number 18 puts Sebastian Vettel on par with Kimi Raikkonen for 13th overall in the all time wins column. So if he wins the rest of the races this season (and we know this may very well happen), he'll be tied with Juan Manuel Fangio for 9th all time, and one behind Jim Clark and Niki Lauda. That's pretty big company, and only at the age of 24!

But we all know his racing skills don't match that of the respectable Juan Manuel Fangio, or Jim Clark, or Niki Lauda. Or at least, not yet.

 

[Bollocks#999]

But we all know his racing skills don't match that of the respectable Juan Manuel Fangio, or Jim Clark, or Niki Lauda. Or at least, not yet.

Bulls and eye.

That one pass Sunday, awesome as it was, really hasnt changed anything in my eyes. He indeed has a long way to go, particualry in this area to be considered in the same sentance as the three mentioned.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

But we all know his racing skills don't match that of the respectable Juan Manuel Fangio, or Jim Clark, or Niki Lauda. Or at least, not yet.

Vettel made an unconventional strategy work. He was 20km/h slower than the fastest driver through the speed trap all weekend, and yet he was consistently setting the fastest lap times. It's easy to write Vettel's success off as being a direct result of the car, but Mark Webber hasn't had a chance to get a look in all season long. Which is pretty telling, if you ask me.