2011 Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia

[Ardius]

The front wheels were both on the deck. We know this because they were rotating and an F1 car isn't FWD with a locked diff. The reason his front brakes locked up was because without the mechanical grip provided by the front wing on the front tyres at the ~190mph he came at Parabolica, he was asking brakes designed for repeated hard stops of 5G+ to stop tyres barely troubling 1.5G of vertical loading.

Assuming we don't throw in a broken piece of front wing underneath the car into the equation...perhaps hitting the brakes caused enough shift in weight in the car or the bumps around the braking area or the general speed difference or anything really could have caused the piece of wing to even momentarilty lift the front wheels.

All I see though is a lot of questions here and not something as simple as saying Webber is an idiot.

 

[ZEROX]

...he didn't have sense enough to back off.

Indeed. Over-ambitous with that low-cost car.

 

[Famine]

Assuming we don't throw in a broken piece of front wing underneath the car into the equation...perhaps hitting the brakes caused enough shift in weight in the car or the bumps around the braking area or the general speed difference or anything really could have caused the piece of wing to even momentarilty lift the front wheels.

The wing was trapped between the wheels and tray. It would need to travel backwards - under the floor - to lift both the front wheels. Travelling forwards would result in a lot of chewed carbon fibre, maybe one wheel lifting and a possible puncture. Weight shift under braking is... forwards.

The wheels were moving under road surface friction under acceleration and stopped moving under deceleration. This indicates that the brakes merely overwhelmed the available friction (as would be caused by a 40% reduction in downforce and a 99% reduction in front downforce) rather than any other cause however a partially trapped wing under the floor may have reduced the contact patch and aided.

Which bring us right back to the question of how Webber either failed to notice no front downforce at all or no front downforce at all and his car being lifted up off the deck. These guys deal in tenths of degrees and millimetres and he can't spot no front grip or no front grip and a car lifted so high the tyres barely touch the road? And, to take us even further back, Leigh MacKenzie's interview with Webber included him telling her that "I knew it was damaged, but I didn't know it had gone completely"... It was sideways, under his car and performing no useful downforce - how did he not know it had gone completely?

All I see though is a lot of questions here and not something as simple as saying Webber is an idiot.

I see a few questions:

Why did Webber not notice the absence of front downforce in a minute of driving? We know that he didn't because he stated that he didn't know the wing was "gone completely".
Why did Webber's engineer not notice the absence of front downforce in a minute of driving?
If Webber's engineer did notice, what information was relayed that resulted in Webber approaching Parabolica at speed close to normal race speeds?
And, of course, what was Webber playing at in the first place to lose his front wing?


Again, he made two gross errors and, luckily, only one affected a driver other than himself.

 

[Ardius]

I've just had a closer look back at the start and basically it breaks down into this:
1. Bruno Senna gets a shockingly bad start which causes cars around him to have to avoid him - not immediately off the grid but as a result of bogging down in the gears later on near the braking zone.
2. The Williams (I think) immediately behind Senna to his rear-right backs out of overtaking him as the track narrows near the chicane. This triggers a series of avoiding moves.
3. Meanwhile, at the back, Liuzzi has got a rocket start and is carrying far more speed than those around him. Rather than back off, he chooses to try and drive around the slower cars ahead - a natural and fair decision.
4. Problem is, as soon as Liuzzi chooses to avoid the cars ahead and overtake them, the chain of cars slowing and avoiding each other plus the narrowing track completely catches Liuzzi out - its important to highlight here that the cars ahead of him weren't slower due to avoiding Senna but were slower generally. The point I'm making here is that he was already avoiding cars due to his greater speed...but as he started to overtake them the speed differential grew higher due to the chain reaction from Senna.
5. End result, Liuzzi is completely caught out with no space to go as the Saubers have slowed up and a Williams is dead ahead of him. He attempts to brake too late but by this point he is carrying way more speed than anyone else. Tank-slapping and off we got to the crash.

I wouldn't solely blame Liuzzi for this. I don't know why he is blaming Kovalainen other than Kovalainen initially squeezed him which caused him to start overtaking on the inside in the first place. But he was a little ambitious himself to try and carry all of his momentum into what is always a very tight and messy first corner.
If Senna's slow start hadn't of happened, Liuzzi might have gotten away with it. And for this reason, I don't entirely blame him. Its just unfortuantely something did happen which caused the field to slow more than normal. But he is somewhat to blame considering he was being ambitious into a corner and section of track which was only ever going to get narrower and in a field of cars which were going to brake eventually. One does get the sense that he would have still ploughed into the back of someone else instead if he hadn't got the tank-slapper.

 

[Barra333]

I see a few questions:

Why did Webber not notice the absence of front downforce in a minute of driving? We know that he didn't because he stated that he didn't know the wing was "gone completely".

Im sure he did, otherwise he would not have made it to the Parbolica

Why did Webber's engineer not notice the absence of front downforce in a minute of driving?

See above

If Webber's engineer did notice, what information was relayed that resulted in Webber approaching Parabolica at speed close to normal race speeds?

For all of the technology and sensors in F1, I dont think there is one that relays the position of a broken wing, or the said wing's intentions. It stayed where it was for a minute and a couple of braking zones, why is it unreasonable to expect it to stay another 20secs?

And, of course, what was Webber playing at in the first place to lose his front wing?

I dont think there is a difference of opinion on this - Webber 🤬'ed up

 

[Sureboss]

Two wholly avoidable errors from Webber.

I'm just slightly surprised that the crash occurred at Parabolica, he shirley must have been easing it around 2nd chicane the Lesmos and Ascari? So why then think he could do that going in to Parabolica?

He really is showing why he's a #2 this season, which is only reason why RBR have kept him on next year so as to keep Vettel sweet.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Well of course, but he did a good job on defending his spot from Hamilton. But his double blocking maneuver WAS questionable. Any word on what the stewards say about that?

Supposedly the race director didn't bring it to attention and thus the race stewards never reviewed it...

EDIT:

I've just had a closer look back at the start and basically it breaks down into this:
1. Bruno Senna gets a shockingly bad start which causes cars around him to have to avoid him - not immediately off the grid but as a result of bogging down in the gears later on near the braking zone.
2. The Williams (I think) immediately behind Senna to his rear-right backs out of overtaking him as the track narrows near the chicane. This triggers a series of avoiding moves.

I didn't see that at all there was a Williams in front of Bruno which was Rubens. The front wing was damaged on that car. The car behind Bruno was a Force India I watched Bruno and he seemed to break slightly early but he may have seen Luizzi going across the grass and didn't want to become a victim.

 

[Ardius]

I've just run the video again but further into the actual accident itself and you are right that it isn't a Williams, its a Toro Rosso. The Force India is directly behind Senna, but its the Toro Rosso trying to go the right-side of Senna and then drastically backing off which sparks the Saubers to brake and avoid and Liuzzi to be caught out.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I've just run the video again but further into the actual accident itself and you are right that it isn't a Williams, its a Toro Rosso. The Force India is directly behind Senna, but its the Toro Rosso trying to go the right-side of Senna and then drastically backing off which sparks the Saubers to brake and avoid and Liuzzi to be caught out.

Yeah cause I thought Senna had a good run from start to finish...Glad we both can take notes from the race and learn from each other. Cause now that I go back I see the Toro Rosso 👍

 

[Seismica]

Which bring us right back to the question of how Webber either failed to notice no front downforce at all or no front downforce at all and his car being lifted up off the deck. These guys deal in tenths of degrees and millimetres and he can't spot no front grip or no front grip and a car lifted so high the tyres barely touch the road? And, to take us even further back, Leigh MacKenzie's interview with Webber included him telling her that "I knew it was damaged, but I didn't know it had gone completely"... It was sideways, under his car and performing no useful downforce - how did he not know it had gone completely?

I haven't seen this interview, but from the pictures in the race it was clear that Webber broke significantly earlier than is considered normal at that part of the track. I believe Webber was well aware of the reduced downforce, but being off-line on the new track surface contributed to the front tyres locking so easily as he had already been through 4 other braking zones in the lap of varying intensities and got through without problems (Over than being horribly slow). He was cautious, but obviously not cautious enough as he was trying to minimise the time he lost so he could fight back later. Maybe he should have backed out long before the braking zone, but then again hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Ardius]

Yeah cause I thought Senna had a good run from start to finish...Glad we both can take notes from the race and learn from each other. Cause now that I go back I see the Toro Rosso 👍

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying Senna caused it all or was to blame for anything, but he did have a terrible start and that started a chain of events. He was pretty lucky that his bad start caused a lot of cars that would have been faster than him to retire, but even so he had a solid drive for points.

It would have been nice to see how would have faired with a full field and less retirements to aid him though. And also to run a similar strategy to everyone else - as these two races have led to him running a different strategy than planned.

 

[Prince.M5]

Liuzzi blame Kovalainen for his accident?
I blame his stupidity for sure.

Kovalainen did squeeze a little but he has already been on the grass for a while and he should know something wrong is going to happen. What really bothers me is that he didn't have the sense to slow the car down in an approach into the congested first corner, then made contact with one of the Sauber which I think was Kobayashi and lost control of his car...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying Senna caused it all or was to blame for anything, but he did have a terrible start and that started a chain of events. He was pretty lucky that his bad start caused a lot of cars that would have been faster than him to retire, but even so he had a solid drive for points.

It would have been nice to see how would have faired with a full field and less retirements to aid him though. And also to run a similar strategy to everyone else - as these two races have led to him running a different strategy than planned.

Yeah I see what you mean, but I think Bruno can run well I mean even out of those left they were tough challenges but his style was quite smooth but at the same time attacked well. Like the pass on Alguersuari which was done quite well. However, I agree I think next week and the rest of the season will be why he deserves to be in the seat and show what he can do more so.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

He really is showing why he's a #2 this season, which is only reason why RBR have kept him on next year so as to keep Vettel sweet.

Well Vettel is close to single-handedly winning both championships. He's about 40 short on the constructors.

 

[YellowG1]

I'm finding the Webber pile-on kind of strange. How many times have we seen someone bin the car after losing the front wing? These guys, even the good drivers, aren't omniscient. The fact that Webber wrecked after getting his wing torn off doesn't render him unfit to race...

 

[That90sGuy]

I look at the first corner incident in a positive and light-hearted way; for a split second, a Hispana car was in a points position.

 

[granturismite]

^ thats exactly what I said when it happened!

I have to say, Webber had one of his best starts this year. He only lost two places! Although I don't really know what Webber could have done to avoid Massa once he had turned into turn 1 on the outside of the Ferrari. Massa could have give some more room, but was entitled to try and take the corner. I think it was a racing incident, with more blame on Webber's side, but mainly a racing incident.

On a side note:are Red Bull on for a 100% qualifying record this year?

 

[Terronium-12]

It's looking that way.

 

[RTSolvalou]

Luizzi got a 5 place grid penalty for Singapore... I'm not sure what this is going to achieve.

 

[Bollocks#999]

Luizzi got a 5 place grid penalty for Singapore... I'm not sure what this is going to achieve.

Bit harsh (and pointless) I'd say. From where I was sitting it looked like he got a slight touch and ended up on the grass from that. Saying that I did only get a quick glance from the overhead shot.

 

[Tired Tyres]

In regards to Webber.

I don't think a driver can see his own front wing from the cockpit.

Perhaps Webber's wing only collapsed on the run to Parabolica?

That's the only excuse I can think of that's even remotely plausible.

Also I think that mechanical grip comes from the tyres only and the grip produced by the wings is aero grip?

 

[Patruck GT2]

I saw it yesterday after a night spent in Parco di Monza (Monza Park) trying (and managing) to find a way to elude security end enter the track. Actually I and my friends chose the unluckiest turn (Ascari): neither overtakes nor accidents, and no informations about the developing of the race: when it was finished, I had to ask some people to understand how it had gone...

 

[Famine]

In regards to Webber.

I don't think a driver can see his own front wing from the cockpit.

Correct.

Perhaps Webber's wing only collapsed on the run to Parabolica?

Nope. It was sideways and under his car before he got past the car he'd just spun.

That's the only excuse I can think of that's even remotely plausible.

Also I think that mechanical grip comes from the tyres only and the grip produced by the wings is aero grip?

Mechanical grip is derived from the coefficient of friction, which depends on the road surface, tyre compound, tyre contact patch and weight upon the tyre. Wings produce lift outside the plane of airflow - in this case an inverted one, producing lift downwards, or downforce - and have the effect of adding weight. An F1 car produces its own weight in downforce - 1G of vertical acceleration - at 120mph and so weighs twice what it does at rest at that speed. This effective weight is distributed over the car proportionally to the locations and magnitudes of the downforce effects and adds to mechanical grip by increasing the weight upon the tyre.

So Webber's car would have been producing 40% (or thereabouts) less downforce, all of it taken from the front end and the front end grip would have been reduced as a result.

Now I, personally, would struggle to believe an F1 driver would not have noticed this. I also struggle to believe that an F1 car, laden as it is with sensors, would not be providing telemetry to the race engineer that said "I have no front grip, the weight balance is so far at the back I may as well be a 1984 Porsche 911". But we have a situation where the driver has decided to approach a corner at nearly normal race speed (he is passed by an HRT - presumably Ricciardo as it was still in the race and pointing forwards - coming into the braking zone, but is running an appreciable percentage of its straight line speed; HRT may not be the best car on the grid, but F1 cars have broadly headline performance, easily approaching 200mph into that braking zone) and, in a post-race interview, stated very clearly that he was aware of damage but unaware he had no front wing at all and it was under his car.

We know that the front wing moving under braking is a flawed reason. The wheels were both moving under friction, both locked during braking and both started moving again under friction once the brakes were released. A loose part would only move forwards under braking and that would only produce a lifting effect on one wheel at best and the effect would remain regardless of braking effort (or the carbonfibre would be chewed silly - we didn't see that happen).

The wing being partially trapped under the floor would produce a lifting effect on both wheels and maybe reduce the coefficient of friction by reducing the contact patch. It would need to be subtle enough to not lift the front wheels clean off the ground, but just to reduce that footprint ever so slightly. I'd happily agree that this and the lack of downforce and the newer tarmac between Ascari and Parabolica and the fact he was slightly off the line (which Schumacher said was notably less grippy) all contributed to the twin wheel lockup and release effect.


But we're still butting up against this problem - there was no front downforce and, possibly, the car was being lifted slightly by a trapped wing and either, somehow, Webber and his engineer were completely unaware of it after a minute of driving an F1 car at nearly normal speeds or they were aware of it and he still drove an F1 car at nearly normal speeds. I can't think of any "out" there that isn't Webber's fault* and that could have been avoided - he's very lucky not to have taken Ricciardo out completely in what would have been a fast and messy place indeed.


* As noted elsewhere, plenty of other F1 drivers have done the same - and plenty haven't - after losing a front wing. Hurrying back to the pits in a car in no condition to hurry is pretty dim and the inevitable accident they have is always their own fault. Pushing the envelope is, however, part of an F1 driver's remit - claiming you didn't know it was missing and under your car is a first for me and I'd still love to know how you can, as an experienced F1 driver, not notice your car weighs three times its rest weight (sufficient downforce at 150mph for that) at the back but its normal rest weight at the front.

 

[Ardius]

Bit harsh (and pointless) I'd say. From where I was sitting it looked like he got a slight touch and ended up on the grass from that. Saying that I did only get a quick glance from the overhead shot.

A 5 place grid penalty for a HRT doesn't really mean anything.

 

[Famine]

A 5 place grid penalty for a HRT doesn't really mean anything.

Hey, it makes the difference between starting 18th or behind the guy who didn't take part in Q1 - and that's important, or else the first person to pass him will be the leader and he might not be used to it by then...

 

[niky]

How'd I know you all would be talking about Webber and nothing else when I got back in here?

Massively unlucky yesterday. Was out all day, driving in ungodly heat, got a bit sick on the way home and had to go to bed before the race started.

Just watched the replay... fantastic start and mid-race... end race was a bit boring... as Lewis had just one lap too few to really take it to Alonso.

Vettel... what can you say? He kept his cool when he needed to, took back that place from Alonso with an incredibly brave but steady pass with two wheels off in the grass, and drove the wheels off that Red Bull to open up that gap.

Vettel did his one overtake without DRS. It was absolutely necessary, as the Ferrari had the straightline speed. So he didn't put in quantity, but the quality was pretty good.

Questions about overtaking ability aside, that was a damn impressive drive... and a damn impressive job by Newey's team making that Red Bull incredibly quick on a track where it shouldn't be. The camber trick they pulled at Spa has been outlawed (if I recall right), so that extra grip... even considering the sacrifice in top speed... was incredible.

If there was any doubt about RBR being the new Ferrari, that's out the window. This team now has no visible weaknesses versus its closest rivals.

Hamilton on Schumacher was fun to watch, but ultimately Lewis just didn't get the job done. When Button cruised by them, I had to choke back a laugh. Fantastic race for Schumi...never mind that extra wiggle or two... with a set-up that's low on rear downforce and high on speed, he had masterful control of that car until the tires went away.

Alonso drove a great race... but Button just drove better. After a so-so season at Mclaren last year, Button's confidence and ability to outperform his "faster" team-mate is incredible. Perhaps the Brawn GP season was a fluke, but he's showing the qualities of a champion here at McLaren this year. 👍

 

[Prince.M5]

Guys, I'd like to know why is that the rev on all the cars bounce up and down on the straights? It sounded like they gain a gear, and drop back that gear and all of a sudden they gain a gear and the rev drops..? Is it because of the KERS which I think it couldn't be...

EDIT: Or is it my TV?

EDIT: No it couldn't be my TV...

 

[Pezzarinho17]

A fantastic start by Alonso and Schumacher, can't help but feel that they both lead to Vettel's cruise ultimately though since all weekend it was clear only McLaren would match Red Bull (or should I see Vettel...).

Watching it I thought Hamilton and Button had swapped helmet designs. Lewis was a shadow of his former self whilst Button showed aggression matched to quality. Hamilton finally gets past Schumacher only to leave the door wide open.... then Button pulls off a sensational move to pass Hamilton and another (was it on the same lap?) to pass Schumacher first chance he got. Even with the lesson in overtaking it still took Hamilton a long time to finally make it stick, and his race was over. He did well to catch Alonso at the end, but should have beaten him.

One thing I didn't get was this idea that Vettel had proven he can overtake and race wheel to wheel. He performed one very gutsy move on Alonso yes, but its not in the realms of a win from >10th on the grid we have seen the others perform. Take nothing away from him though, it was yet another dominant performance on a track the Red Bull was supposed to struggle.

Harsh penalty for Liuzzi too, I'm sure he didn't intend to finish his home race at turn 1 + 2 having collected a number of midfield runners.... Looked like he lost control having been forced onto the grass and made every attempt to correct it before eventually losing out.

 

[daan]

Luizzi got a 5 place grid penalty for Singapore... I'm not sure what this is going to achieve.

It means he starts behind the doctor's car, but yeah, it is a bit pointless.

 

[Small_Fryz]

It means he starts behind the doctor's car, but yeah, it is a bit pointless.

Id say its more about being consistent in case it was anybody else.


Back to my other question before, When was the last time the top 5 finishers were all world champions?