2011 Formula 1 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

[Stevisiov]

I'm sure the stewards will be able to decide with all the data they have. I wouldn't be surprised if they found both driver guilty to be honest. It's hard to imagine Hamilton getting the brunt of the blame from the stewards looking at the video though.

I called it.

 

[C-ZETA]

I must be in that same dream land, I certainly see a sharp swerve towards Maldonado at 0:04 in this clip.

That was him trying to block off the first move he made.

 

[F1 fan]

Please watch the onboard of Hamilton:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14691403.stm

(3 minutes 20 in the video).

Been looking for one all day, alas I'm in Canada right now and the video is region locked although my home address in the uk has a fully paid up tv licence .

This video makes it look more severe.

 

[Ardius]

The onboard clearly shows Hamilton following the outside line of the track, making no steering movements towards Maldonado. Not only that, but Hamilton appears to be preparing to shake his fist at Pastor - clearly expecting him to drive past as normal (yes Lewis is being a bit pathetic, Alonso style there but thats besides the point).
Then the crash between them clearly shows the line that Maldonado was taking was always going to end in contact - personally I think Maldonado simply drove a straight line and made no effort to avoid contact. The curve of the track is only ever going to make Lewis go right, so what on earth is Pastor doing?

Again, I can only keep highlighting the fact they are both on in-laps and had no reason to be blocking each other or messing about driving so close. So I can't see there being much of an argument for expecting Maldonado to be pushing to the limit and taking up all of the track, let alone expecting Hamilton to move clean out of the way, hit the brakes or any other avoiding moves.

 

[C-ZETA]

The onboard clearly shows Hamilton following the outside line of the track, making no steering movements towards Maldonado. Not only that, but Hamilton appears to be preparing to shake his fist at Pastor - clearly expecting him to drive past as normal (yes Lewis is being a bit pathetic, Alonso style there but thats besides the point).
Then the crash between them clearly shows the line that Maldonado was taking was always going to end in contact - personally I think Maldonado simply drove a straight line and made no effort to avoid contact. The curve of the track is only ever going to make Lewis go right, so what on earth is Pastor doing?

Again, I can only keep highlighting the fact they are both on in-laps and had no reason to be blocking each other or messing about driving so close. So I can't see there being much of an argument for expecting Maldonado to be pushing to the limit and taking up all of the track, let alone expecting Hamilton to move clean out of the way, hit the brakes or any other avoiding moves.

Thanks for sharing my thoughts too, Ardius. +1. 👍

 

[LewyOs]

Just seen the onboard and there is no way Hamilton could have avoided the contact. Maldonado comes flying past, as Hamiltons steering wheel is straight, certainly no time to brake.

 

[Ardius]

Onboard for everyone not just UK'ers to see:

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Onboard for everyone not just UK'ers to see:

Good to see Hamilton being his usual self with the hands in the air, I find it funny. Maldonado looks to be going a lot faster than I thought he was compared to Hamilton going by that video. You can see why Lewis said what he said on the radio as he sees it at a lower height.

 

[niky]

Double standards for Maldonado .

Hamilton's reprimand is for the flying lap incident. Warning for causing an avoidable collision while overtaking. Maldonado's penalty is harsher because his incident was during the in-lap, when there was no actual need to overtake other cars or... you know... actually drive shoulder-apex-shoulder...

In other news, the FIA has decided to require all racetracks to paint lane markers to remind drivers which side of the track to drive on during their in-laps.

Anyone caught crossing the lane dividers during an incident gets a penalty. Retroactively applied, as thus, to Pastor Maldonaldo.

Not quite satisfied with Hamilton's penalty, as it could go either way (5-place penalty wouldn't be out of hand... no need to overtake during qualifying!)... but then, if I'd had my way, Maldonado would be DQ'd completely from tomorrow's race.

 

[UK-Gamer]

It can be seen here. The point is, Maldonado was to blame, but Hamilton could have avoided it. He didn't. Hamilton received a reprimand and Pastor got a more severe penalty. Both are justified in my opinion. As a matter of fact, I think you're the only one disputing the fact that Hamilton turned towards Maldonado.

If you also take reference from the vid, the road was closing out in front of Hamilton so he had to jink to the right.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hamilton's reprimand is for the flying lap incident. Warning for causing an avoidable collision while overtaking. Maldonado's penalty is harsher because his incident was during the in-lap, when there was no actual need to overtake other cars or... you know... actually drive shoulder-apex-shoulder...

In other news, the FIA has decided to require all racetracks to paint lane markers to remind drivers which side of the track to drive on during their in-laps.

Anyone caught crossing the lane dividers during an incident gets a penalty. Retroactively applied, as thus, to Pastor Maldonaldo.

Not quite satisfied with Hamilton's penalty, as it could go either way (5-place penalty wouldn't be out of hand... no need to overtake during qualifying!)... but then, if I'd had my way, Maldonado would be DQ'd completely from tomorrow's race.

Are you sure as the time on both the sheets are the same? Sounds like Lewis had a bit of wheelspin when he first moved right. This interview makes it much more understanding what Lewis's intentions were:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94043

 

[niky]

Now you're just exaggerating the scenario even more. The fact is, had Hamilton hit the brakes, contact could have been avoided. Ardius, you are not the grand jury of F1.

Neither are you.

This is something we preach when teaching new drivers... online, in real life, whenever we give talks on driver safety:

"If your safety relies on other drivers being able to avoid you, then you're not a safe driver."

When you're trundling straight down the track in one lane, you're not expected to have to slam on the brakes to avoid someone overtaking you. The overtaking driver is expected to clear and merge safely in front of the other car. Which is why Maldonado was given a five place penalty.

 

[F1 fan]

If you also take reference from the vid, the road was closing out in front of Hamilton so he had to jink to the right.

Maybe not as severely as he did. Having now seen the onboard video, it appears to have been sped up a little. If it has been noticeably sped up, then maybe Hamilton could have avoided it. But if the video Ardius linked is the real speed or close to it, it does look unavoidable from Hamilton's perspective. Taking that video as is, it was unavoidable. However, maybe Hamilton had a better perspective as his head is not fixed like a camera is, and he would have seen Maldonado in his mirrors. It's a lot of maybes, but I wouldn't rule any of it out.

Perhaps the last nail in the coffin for Maldonado would be onboard footage from his car.

 

[Sureboss]

That on-board is fairly conclusive, anyway, irrelevant considering McLaren fixed the damage and it didn't hamper his time that much. Good qualy, race should be awesome.

However, maybe Hamilton had a better perspective as his head is not fixed like a camera is, and he would have seen Maldonado in his mirrors. It's a lot of maybes, but I wouldn't rule any of it out.

Seeing where a car is and knowing what that car will do are two very different things, in real life or in Motorsport.

Saying he could have braked to avoid it, well what if when he braked Maldonado pulled back in at the wrong time, people would have had Lewis berated for brake testing Maldonado! Lewis did nowt wrong.

 

[Ardius]

It wasn't sped up, its the same speed as the one on the BBC site.

And Hamilton says just before the contact that Maldonado was in his blind spot (which is believable...seeing as Maldonado pulled out alongside him and the mirrors only display immediately behind, over the wheels and the side of the rear wing). But even so, again, how is Hamilton meant to expect Maldonado to just drive straight into him? He cannot be expected to see that coming. This was not a tight hairpin or corner like Monaco - it was effectively a curved straight.

 

[F1 fan]

Neither are you.

Let's get the facts straight:

1. The stewards reprimanded Hamilton for causing avoidable contact when overtaking Maldonado at the end of his flyer. NOT for the incident on the in-lap.

2. This is something we preach when teaching new drivers... online, in real life, whenever we give talks on driver safety:

"If your safety relies on other drivers being able to avoid you, then you're not a safe driver."

When you're trundling straight down the track in one lane, you're not expected to have to slam on the brakes to avoid someone overtaking you. The overtaking driver is expected to clear and merge safely in front of the other car. Which is why Maldonado was given a five place penalty.

Niky, we could discuss the highway codes of our respective countries and just go around in circles. When I posted that comment to Ardius it's quite possible he had seen videos from other perspectives which hadn't been posted on the forums yet. And one more thing. We can go into discussions about who is responsible for what. The fact is, when you drive a car of any kind, you have a responsibility to do your best to avoid accidents. None of this takes any of the blame away from Maldonado however if Hamilton had been in a position to avoid it, surely it is his duty to avoid it?

It wasn't sped up, its the same speed as the one on the BBC site.

And Hamilton says just before the contact that Maldonado was in his blind spot (which is believable...seeing as Maldonado pulled out alongside him and the mirrors only display immediately behind, over the wheels and the side of the rear wing).

Bearing in mind that the mirrors are at an angle, so therefore he would be able to see at an angle. Nevertheless, I am not in a position to say what he could and couldn't see. I am now moving my flagpole closer and closer towards Maldonado in the blame game.

 

[niky]

The onboard seems pretty clear.

Maldonado had the entire right half of the track to drive on. Since they weren't racing at the time, there was no need for him to cut across the track at all. (He is clearly aiming for the outside shoulder around Hamilton). Hamilton went off the outside line, but after that (where the video starts), he maintains a straight line across the track, following the starting boxes they're going over. (halfway through the video)

It seems Maldonado simply wanted to spook Hamilton. If he was actually aiming to hit him, he'd deserve a DQ, but as it was a grazing blow, the stewards saw fit to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[conspiracy]Lewis is a genius... moves over to the right just enough to get hit, but not enough to get punted out of qualifying! Millimeter perfect![/conspiracy]

 

[Ardius]

I posted the onboard video as soon as I saw it. I formed my opinion based on the same videos you posted earlier and my own thoughts.

As I said earlier, if you watch those videos you posted and carefully follow the cars in relation to the track and not each other, you can more easily tell that Hamilton didn't make any sudden moves (other than just after La Source which was only briefly).

Not to mention, like I keep repeating over and over and over in this thread that were talking about in-laps here. Maldonado had no reason to even go so extreme with his lines and there is no reason for Hamilton to be aggressive. So even with this in mind and ignoring everything else I have difficulty believing Hamilton was at fault.

Then the shape of this section of track naturally leads cars to turn. If two cars are side-by-sde, they both need to turn right, and the car on the inside needs to make more room than normal because with another car alongside he cannot turn as little as usual.

I don't feel the TV footage is unclear at all, hence my reaction earlier in this thread before I even saw the onboard. The onboard only makes it painfully obvious.

 

[F1 fan]

Not to mention, like I keep repeating over and over and over in this thread that were talking about in-laps here. Maldonado had no reason to even go so extreme with his lines and there is no reason for Hamilton to be aggressive. So even with this in mind and ignoring everything else I have difficulty believing Hamilton was at fault.

You aren't the first person to state the fact that we're talking about in-laps, so I don't understand why you keep mentioning it like you're the only one that thought about it.

 

[niky]

Are you sure as the time on both the sheets are the same? Sounds like Lewis had a bit of wheelspin when he first moved right. This interview makes it much more understanding what Lewis's intentions were:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94043

My mistake. But I'd still have given a reprimand for the first instead of the second... though he did manage to make it through... again... safety relying on others... which I disapprove of... but I can understand how they'd wave it off as merely racing if nothing untoward happened.

None of this takes any of the blame away from Maldonado however if Hamilton had been in a position to avoid it, surely it is his duty to avoid it?

Avoid it if you can... but as a traffic offense, wherever in the world you are, that one would be a ticker for Maldonado.

 

[homeforsummer]

There no 'no reason to suspect' when it comes to high speed racing!

When your in an F1 car there's always reason to expect the unexpected whether it be in qualy or the race. Their senses should always be in 'race mode' whenever they get into that car because there is always a risk of something bad happening. So if you see something coming towards you don't assume... just get out of there.

Lets say Maldonado's car had some sort of failure which led to the same incident, wouldn't it be just as unexpected? Why should Hamilton react differently whether its intentional or not if the outcome (an impact) is the same?

My point is that it wasn't in the least bit difficult for Hamilton to press the brake peddle (even lightly) on a straight piece of track to avoid the collision. You don't even need to be a top tier F1 driver to do that!

Robin.

You haven't a clue, have you? Let's break down everything that is wrong with what you're saying.

"If you see something coming towards you don't assume... just get out of there" - Right, so every time any driver goes near any other driver in a race, the other guy has to back off in a panic? Nobody would ever get past the first corner.

"Lets say Maldonado's car had some sort of failure which led to the same incident, wouldn't it be just as unexpected?" Of course it'd be unexpected, but again - does that mean every single driver has to freak out every time a driver comes very close to them, just in case their car has broken and they're about to collide? Of course it doesn't.

"My point is that it wasn't in the least bit difficult for Hamilton to press the brake peddle pedal (even lightly) on a straight piece of track to avoid the collision. You don't even need to be a top tier F1 driver to do that!" - Right, so when Hamilton brakes, Maldonado then clips his front tyre instead of hitting side to side, spinning him into the barrier at high speed and almost certainly taking Hamilton with him anyway. End result, two cars in the barrier because Lewis panic-braked.

Once again, my point stands: Lewis had no reason to brake suddenly. Doing so would both be potentially dangerous, and also he had no reason to expect another driver to deliberately drive into the side of him.

Now you're just exaggerating the scenario even more. The fact is, had Hamilton hit the brakes, contact could have been avoided. Ardius, you are not the grand jury of F1.

Pivotal word here: could

It equally could have caused an even bigger accident.

 

[Ardius]

You aren't the first person to state the fact that we're talking about in-laps, so I don't understand why you keep mentioning it like you're the only one that thought about it.

I'm not claiming I'm the only who thought about it - I'm simply pointing out that its crucial when talking about the lines drivers are taking, how aware they are of other drivers and what Hamilton was "expecting".

It certainly seemed like you and others were not thinking about this when talking as if Hamilton could take avoiding action or that Hamilton was somehow being aggressive in this situation. Why on earth would he be aggressive on an in-lap and why should he expect drivers to move all over the track as if they were at racing speed (especially when he knows they aren't on a flying lap)?

And I mentioned it again here to explain why I formed a strong opinion and view that Maldonado was in the complete wrong before I saw the onboard.

Basically my point is that isn't just because of an onboard camera that I and others can know Hamilton didn't do anything wrong. Though it sure does help make the point crystal clear.

 

[Anghammarad]

Onboard for everyone not just UK'ers to see:

Well, I was wrong.

 

[Ardius]

Anyway, to bring this thread back to a positive mood, I still can't get over how well Senna has done with the current testing bans, etc. If he scores points tomorrow surely this is up there with Kobayashi's debut?

And I also have to say Alguesuari and Perez did great too, if not for Senna and the controversies, perhaps we would be talking about Alguesuari's rise or Perez's fine form?
Di Resta appears to be struggling at this stage of the season, though I don't think he lacks speed, I think he is over-driving the car far too much. Something I was worried Senna would do, as he seemed to overdrive the HRT last year a little.

Once again Lotus are the dangerzone guys for Q1, in conditions like this they can easily knock the odd midfield driver out as Kovalainen did today. Not only that but most recent races they have managed to keep pace with some of the rear-midfielders and ruined their race. Barrichello, Maldonado, Perez, Sutil and I think Alguesuari have all been stuck behind either Lotus driver at some point this year for most of the race. So even though in ultimate speed the Lotus cars are not with the midfield yet, in the races they can hold on to them and mix it up.

Perhaps its now sensible to expect Lotus to finally join the midfield next year?

 

[homeforsummer]

Anyway, to bring this thread back to a positive mood, I still can't get over how well Senna has done with the current testing bans, etc. If he scores points tomorrow surely this is up there with Kobayashi's debut?

I'd love to see Senna get a good result. He's impressed all weekend (trip into the barriers aside).

Do we know whether Schumacher's wheel incident was a mechanic's mistake or part failure yet?

 

[C-ZETA]

Anyway, to bring this thread back to a positive mood, I still can't get over how well Senna has done with the current testing bans, etc. If he scores points tomorrow surely this is up there with Kobayashi's debut?

And I also have to say Alguesuari and Perez did great too, if not for Senna and the controversies, perhaps we would be talking about Alguesuari's rise or Perez's fine form?
Di Resta appears to be struggling at this stage of the season, though I don't think he lacks speed, I think he is over-driving the car far too much. Something I was worried Senna would do, as he seemed to overdrive the HRT last year a little.

Senna certainly must have surprised many. Not many would have expected him to get out of Q2 (or even 1!) but he's gotten a solid 7th, ahead of Alonso. Jaime did a top job today, ran as high as 4th with 2 minutes left before Massa and Rosberg came in with their times. Perez has had a good rookie season, and he came good again here. Di Resta has been having consistency issues this year, especially considering he came 7th in Hungary and here he can't even beat Kovalainen. He has taken out a few front wings this season, I will agree

 

[Saidur_Ali]

My mistake. But I'd still have given a reprimand for the first instead of the second... though he did manage to make it through... again... safety relying on others... which I disapprove of... but I can understand how they'd wave it off as merely racing if nothing untoward happened.

Maldonado looked to have been steering towards Lewis on the first incident and David Coulthard said he couldn't believe Maldonado never saw him. On the footage posted, you can see Maldonado turning more and more in, like in a way *you ruined my lap, I'll try and ruin yours just a bit*. That is what it looked like to me anyway. Lewis had the better line going into the corner and carrying more speed and was on a faster lap, it was fast enough to go top before Alonso bettered it. Maldonado I can't remember if he improved or not but he was the one that ran wide.

I would have been surprised personally if Lewis got the reprimand for that as steering shows in favour of Lewis and not in Maldonado in that incident. Lewis thought he was probably winding up for another lap and he was too slow to make it (Red Lights) so should have let him through anyway although that was not the case. Maldonado was just going slow due to his teammate in front making a mistake before who was travelling behind Kovalainen I think. Maldonado also did a mistake going wide and Lewis overtaked him to not compromise his hot lap to get him in the top 10 at the time as he was in the dropzone.

Anyway, to bring this thread back to a positive mood, I still can't get over how well Senna has done with the current testing bans, etc. If he scores points tomorrow surely this is up there with Kobayashi's debut?

And I also have to say Alguesuari and Perez did great too, if not for Senna and the controversies, perhaps we would be talking about Alguesuari's rise or Perez's fine form?
Di Resta appears to be struggling at this stage of the season, though I don't think he lacks speed, I think he is over-driving the car far too much. Something I was worried Senna would do, as he seemed to overdrive the HRT last year a little.

Once again Lotus are the dangerzone guys for Q1, in conditions like this they can easily knock the odd midfield driver out as Kovalainen did today. Not only that but most recent races they have managed to keep pace with some of the rear-midfielders and ruined their race. Barrichello, Maldonado, Perez, Sutil and I think Alguesuari have all been stuck behind either Lotus driver at some point this year for most of the race. So even though in ultimate speed the Lotus cars are not with the midfield yet, in the races they can hold on to them and mix it up.

Perhaps its now sensible to expect Lotus to finally join the midfield next year?

He did have a season in a rubbish car which usually makes driving a faster car a lot easier as you have to do less behind the wheel. I'm impressed and said so a few pages back for the reason he did not make a mistake under pressure and his interview you can understand why. He did say he was not going to drive as fast as possible and it helped him stay within limits while the speed was there to be seen.

Alguersuari the fastest spaniard on a drivers track .

Kovalainen had an amazing middle sector time in Q1 so he must have just gone for it after losing a lot of time in the first sector and 👍 to him for being brave enough in that car to make that time up.

 

[Ardius]

I have to say I have a bit of bias for Senna, not because I like his name, but because I feel for him having that immense pressure. The past 2-3 years are a perfect example of how much criticism he can get simply because of a surname. People always keep saying how he gets support only because of his name, how he wouldn't be talked about without the name, etc etc.

But I see that he is a decent driver, he was in GP2 and I felt he sometimes showed a little promise even at HRT (I remember him fighting the Virgins at Turkey...that might seem common now with Liuzzi but back then HRT were much, much slower).

I also think he puts himself under an immense amount of pressure to perform and not to make mistakes. It was so clear to see after his crash on friday - you could see his frustration at making such a small mistake and when he was visibly crying in the pits. It makes you wonder what kind of pressure he has and how annoying it must feel to wake up and have every mistake criticised and every victory ignored due to a name.

I'd just like to see him do well just to make his own name. It is nothing to do with Ayrton and its everything to with him being a nice guy and a good driver. People ask - would you care about him if he wasn't called Senna? I reply - of course! Look at the other drivers I'm a fan of, they are not all amazing drivers and very few of them have famous names.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The only thing that Senna must not do is jump his car like those before him at Renault..."looks at Petrov and Heidfield"

 

[Saidur_Ali]

The only thing that Senna must not do is jump his car like those before him at Renault..."looks at Petrov and Heidfield"

Heidfeld's last memory of driving an F1 car is driving out the pits, then jumping out due to fire and his F1 career could be on the verge of going up in flames. Would be good to see Heidfeld have a better memory (One last drive this season at least) and I hope that Renault does not catch fire anytime soon for both Senna and Petrov's sake. Good to see the Senna name back in F1 and also in a familar liveried car.