2011 Formula One Grand Prix de Monaco

[F1 fan]

What kind of "defensive driving" are you talking about? What works against DRS+Kers (acceleration and straight line speed), besides using it?

The chaser always has the advantage due to splistream, it just isn't enough usually. Using that to end up with a few more seconds on a limited (in time, not location) DRS+Kers, would increase that advantage a lot.

I was talking about good defensive driving when the person behind wasn't using kers or drs. Then when the chasing driver uses kers and drs, the driver in front can too. It's quite simple really. If the chasing driver cannot overtake and none of them are using kers or drs, then the chasing driver "saving up" kers and drs won't be able to overtake either as the driver in front can also "save up" both his drs and kers and use them in response.

Let's assume both drivers are saving up their kers and drs for 90% of a race distance... Assuming this was possible... There's a race long battle between (example) Button and Hamilton. Button had been in front the whole race and Hamilton couldn't get close enough to pass. At 90% of the distance, Hamilton uses his DRS and Kers that he has been saving up. In response, Button uses his. The result is that the two cars went slightly faster, but there was no overtaking.

If the rules were changed as you suggest, it would make Kers and DRS redundant as the driver in front would just wait for the driver behind to use their KERS and DRS, then deploy his to defend his position.

He posted that on his Twitter account.

Seems very forced. I didn't like Hamilton before, now I certainly don't. Yesterday he (very publicly) showed the kind of behaviour I've been talking about for a long time. Just look at the official FIA 2010 dvd review. He whines and blames the team all the time.

 

[Peter.]

​

Upon watching this video, I'd say this one is pretty much 40-60. Maldonado should've gave Hamilton more room but at the same time Hamilton should've known that he was going to cut the corner, making contact with him and he's not even fully side by side before reaching the corner unlike his move with Schumacher... Both of them needs to learn something from this and Hamilton needs a little rest with his race yesterday was run with his ego and not his racing soul.

That accident was entirely Hamilton's fault and it was avoidable. Hamilton should've backed off when he saw there was really no room to pass at the time and that he was going to cut the corner, not go for it anyway and try to push Pastor over so as to not cut the corner. He did that with Schumacher earlier, but that at least turned out better, just barely.

Lewis should've been black flagged.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Seems very forced. I didn't like Hamilton before, now I certainly don't. Yesterday he (very publicly) showed the kind of behaviour I've been talking about for a long time. Just look at the official FIA 2010 dvd review. He whines and blames the team all the time.

What would have taken for you to believe it was sincere? Public flogging? Perhaps a severed limb?

I'm not denying it's a PR move whether it's sincere or not, but seemingly forced?

 

[F1 fan]

Well Evan, I was disgusted by his manner after the race. This apology does not change my opinion of him. Seems very false. Yesterday, a lot of people seen the same arrogance I've seen for years. He seems to think it's the Lewis Hamilton show.

 

[Peter.]

I'm calling Lewis' comments PRA, which is post race aggression. When a race goes wrong for a driver, the first thing they want to do after the race is find other people to blame and they get very pissed. The adrenaline is still flowing in the drivers' blood and their hearts may have not calmed down quite yet, which angers them more.

 

[hornet_burnout]

(...)

You are not considering slipstream. This is the only "natural" advantage a chasing drivers has. I'm stating that using it, and saving some Kers+DRS, would give him a bigger edge (maybe the same as current DRS only) but when he would feel more confortable, and would not be as predictable as a single spot usage is.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm not denying it's a PR move whether it's sincere or not, but seemingly forced?

I think the McLaren statement immediately after LH's initial comments gave the impression that he'd been taken back to the circuit to apologise.

He's lucky in a way - Max Moseley always took great pains to quash Nazist allegations (for the obvious reasons) and would have been likely to have called for Hamilton to explain his 'joke' more publicly (and embarassingly).

Jean Todt has a bit more fire in his veins and probably understands this for what it was - a fired up driver saying something bloody stupid.

 

[F1 fan]

You are not considering slipstream. This is the only "natural" advantage a chasing drivers has. I'm stating that using it, and saving some Kers+DRS, would give him a bigger edge (maybe the same as current DRS only) but when he would feel more confortable, and would not be as predictable as a single spot usage is.

I'm not forgetting slipstreaming. The past few years have shown us that slipstreaming in F1 is quite useless due to the current aero regulations. Most of the time the turbulent air in the corners does more harm than the slipstream does good. Are you forgetting about this?

 

[hornet_burnout]

Using slipstream in corners results in crashing. I was and still am talking about straight line.

I've made my point.

 

[Enzo309]

Monte Carlo is like a Euro trash version of Martinsville....With all the same girl y cat fights afterward (or with words because their too big a pussies to actually have a good ol' fight).

Button had a good race, its too bad Vettel got to change his tires in the pits. Thats the big white elephant in the room, or it should be.

Without fresh tires he would have been driving on the canvas those last 3 laps.....And Alonso would have passed & maybe Button would have gotten up in there too.

The Red Bull tire strategy is a BLATANT EXAMPLE of the level most of the Red Bull team is actually at (average at best). The reason they've won is because the chassis has super good downforce & mechanical grip. But the guys calling the shots are average F1 guys.....who would be mid pack if they were commanding the Ferrari or Mercedes.

In my humble opinion, Christian Horner has always struck me as a very arrogant, domineering man who really is not bright compared to Peter Sauber or Stefano Domenicali.... Although I have only watched every race since last
year. Just got into it.

It's not about how much downforce you have , all car's in F1 have similar amounts of downforce and the amount of downforce by regulations provides optimum performance already so there's no excess drag or downforce to slow them down , for sure in Monaco they set the cars with very high or highest downforce because it's very bumpy.

It's how the air flows and goes through the car which is called aerodynamics.

Adrian newey is the best engineer in F1 because it was just 15 years ago that people started realizing that most of the car's performance comes from aerodynamics and since then his designs of most of the cars won world championships.

When 21st century came , Ferrari started spending half a billion euros for the car's aerodynamic development alone per year , until this time where there's a
budget cap which equals to around 50 million

During the Schumacher era it was Ross brawn who designed most of Ferrari and brawn GP which is also championship winning car but at most of the time it was mostly because of the budget

Now there's a budget cap and you can clearly see who is the best.


Only billionaires can run F1 teams and I think with the budget caps , the engineers would be more payed than the drivers.

 

[F1 fan]

Using slipstream in corners results in crashing. I was and still am talking about straight line.

I've made my point.

You haven't made your point. I was talking about slipstreaming in a straight line... The fact is, a driver can get close to the one in front on the straight, but due to turbulent air will lose downforce therefore, will be slower in the corners. Where's Ardius when you need him?

 

[Peter.]

It's not about how much downforce you have , all car's in F1 have similar amounts of downforce and the amount of downforce by regulations provides optimum performance already so there's no excess drag or downforce to slow them down , for sure in Monaco they set the cars with very high or highest downforce because it's very bumpy.

It's how the air flows and goes through the car which is called aerodynamics.

Adrian newey is the best engineer in F1 because it was just 15 years ago that people started realizing that most of the car's performance comes from aerodynamics and since then his designs of most of the cars won world championships.

When 21st century came , Ferrari started spending half a billion euros for the car's aerodynamic development alone per year , until this time where there's a
budget cap which equals to around 50 million

During the Schumacher era it was Ross brawn who designed most of Ferrari and brawn GP which is also championship winning car but at most of the time it was mostly because of the budget

Now there's a budget cap and you can clearly see who is the best.


Only billionaires can run F1 teams and I think with the budget caps , the engineers would be more payed than the drivers.

You're a bit off there. Call it 30 years ago when engineers started realizing aerodynamics were the way to go. Plus, there is no budget cap in F1 at the moment, but there are bans on in season testing and limitations to the amount of windtunnel testing teams can do in a year, plus restrictions on the amount of a teams resources they are allowed to use in the season.

Ferrari's dominance wasn't just down to spending $500 million a year, it was thanks to the brilliant design work of Rory Byrne, who is arguably on a level with Adrian Newey, though Adrian edges out on him. That, and the brilliant engineer Ross Brawn, who didn't design the car, he made strategy, and won Ferrari a lot of races off of superior race strategy.Red Bull's budget is not as high as Ferrari, but they themselves spend in excess of $200 million a year.

 

[Only_in_f1]

It'll be interesting to go back to the Singapore thread last year and see those who said Hamilton should have given more room...

 

[YellowG1]

It will be very difficult as McLaren and Ferrari this season are close in the races and Red Bull are still seemingly weak on strategy (though it seems all the top teams are screwing strategy up at the moment).
Its also made harder due to Webber not really providing much of a tailgunner role at the moment.

Possible, but I doubt he will manage it. McLaren are surely very close to fighting more consistently for victory.

We'll see... McLaren is still missing 0.7 to 0.9 of a second a lap or so. The RBR just qualifies so well. I'd wager Vettel getting at least 10 wins this year.

 

[Enzo309]

You're a bit off there. Call it 30 years ago when engineers started realizing aerodynamics were the way to go. Plus, there is no budget cap in F1 at the moment, but there are bans on in season testing and limitations to the amount of windtunnel testing teams can do in a year, plus restrictions on the amount of a teams resources they are allowed to use in the season.

Ferrari's dominance wasn't just down to spending $500 million a year, it was thanks to the brilliant design work of Rory Byrne, who is arguably on a level with Adrian Newey, though Adrian edges out on him. That, and the brilliant engineer Ross Brawn, who didn't design the car, he made strategy, and won Ferrari a lot of races off of superior race strategy.Red Bull's budget is not as high as Ferrari, but they themselves spend in excess of $200 million a year.

It's 15-20 years ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dt2XtHck9Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player said by newey
Mika hakkinen's championship car was also by Adrian newey

 

[Enzo309]

We'll see... McLaren is still missing 0.7 to 0.9 of a second a lap or so. The RBR just qualifies so well. I'd wager Vettel getting at least 10 wins this year.

not .7-.9 but within .2 , they are very near but with vettel he is too good at qualifying to be beaten even with the same qualifying car unless his set up is not good then mclaren can be pole. There's only 2 teams for 2011 championship atleast for now which is mclaren and redbull

 

[Peter.]

We'll see... McLaren is still missing 0.7 to 0.9 of a second a lap or so. The RBR just qualifies so well. I'd wager Vettel getting at least 10 wins this year.

Never ever ever. He has 5, and McLaren and Ferrari are quickly catching up, and we're moving on now to tracks that suit the RB less and the McLaren and Ferrari more. The last time someone won 10 times+, or anytime anyone has ever done that, they were far more dominant than RB is now.


Speaking of Red Bull, apparently Vettel put the soft tyres on at his 1 pitstop by accident. So now, i'm trying to find a word with more meaning than luck . A miracle to say the least. Wrong tyres, plus a lucky red flag gave Sebastian the win. Luckiest win i've ever seen.

 

[happycorey]

Just got around to watching the full race. Amazing to say the least. Pretty action packed towards the end

 

[F1 fan]

Never ever ever. He has 5, and McLaren and Ferrari are quickly catching up, and we're moving on now to tracks that suit the RB less and the McLaren and Ferrari more. The last time someone won 10 times+, or anytime anyone has ever done that, they were far more dominant than RB is now.

I'd be willing to bet he'll at least get near the 10 wins. It's quite possible he will get 10 or more. There are another 13 races left. 14 if Bahrain actually gets rescheduled. It's not unrealistic to expect he could get another 4 wins or more. He's been on great form so far. The red bull excels in high speed corners so there are only a few tracks that won't suit it. He's untouchable to Mclaren and Ferrari right now. The only weakness is the team's strategies.

 

[Peter.]

I'd be willing to bet he'll at least get near the 10 wins. It's quite possible he will get 10 or more. There are another 13 races left. 14 if Bahrain actually gets rescheduled. It's not unrealistic to expect he could get another 4 wins or more. He's been on great form so far. The red bull excels in high speed corners so there are only a few tracks that won't suit it. He's untouchable to Mclaren and Ferrari right now. The only weakness is the team's strategies.

Now you're getting me worried that this season will be a Vettel whitewash

 

[F1 fan]

Now you're getting me worried that this season will be a Vettel whitewash

Well, I'm (obviously) a Vettel fan, but I can see it happening. They've sorted out their reliability issues which was their main weakness last season. They'll continue to win if they keep tricking other teams into following their strategy like they did at Barcelona. The season could quite possibly be a Vettel whitewash. The Red Bull's will be weak at Montreal, Monza and Spa, but they will be dominant at tracks like Suzuka, Hungaroring... Come to think about it, they were quite strong at most tracks last year and they are even stronger than last year.

Judging by Barcelona,Ferrari clearly don't have the pace. Alonso's strong showing in Monaco was down to pure talent imo. Merc and Renault are too far back. Mclaren are currently best placed to compete with RBR. Mclaren should work on their strategies as that could be their only way to beat Vettel at the moment. It would be interesting if Webber could return to form. He has shown some amazing speed, but he's too far off Vettel in quali, and his terrible starts aren't helping.

Obviously, every weekend won't be perfect for RBR. Vettel could be on 6 wins already if it wasn't for rbr's poor strategy at Shanghai.

By the way, I realised I said he could get another 4 wins or more, I meant to say 5.

 

[JediRage]

Hamilton's behaviour is pretty irritating to watch. Is it every season that he has one of these inferiority complex outbursts?

Seriously, he's pulling the race card now? Why not drive within the rules like everybody else? Even Webber didn't moan so much when he was crashed by a team mate.

 

[F1 fan]

I like the last line of your signature JediRage. I've pointed that out to various people here. It's really annoying.

 

[lmanion]

Speaking of aerodynamics and aerodynamicists Newey and Brawn/Byrne off the top of my head have been involved in the design of the championship winning cars in all but I think 4 seasons since 1992 or 1993 whenever Newey joined Williams which is pretty amazing.

 

[Barra333]

Now you're getting me worried that this season will be a Vettel whitewash

My order of preference for F1 races is:

1. Webber wins
2. Exciting/interesting race




3. Hmmm, nap time

Since #1 isn't happening right now, at least #2 is true for almost all of the races this year. If it shakes out that Vettel wins most of them, so be it (even though I am not his #1 fan). It is much better than the processions we were getting when Michael Schumacher was on top, which were much closer to #3 on my scale.

 

[happycorey]

I'd hate to see Vettel lose, but I would really hate to see him shut out this whole season but it doesn't look like anyone really has the pace. I wish Mercedes had a faster pace for who is driving for them to keep up, but I guess it's just not there.

 

[Matti_Dude]

That accident was entirely Hamilton's fault and it was avoidable. Hamilton should've backed off when he saw there was really no room to pass at the time and that he was going to cut the corner, not go for it anyway and try to push Pastor over so as to not cut the corner. He did that with Schumacher earlier, but that at least turned out better, just barely.

Lewis should've been black flagged.

Once he's side by side and in the braking zone how exactly do you expect him to be able to brake so much harder that he can let Maldanado through? Hamilton cut the corner and Maldonado still didn't give him enough room to avoid a collision, it was as if Maldonado did not see him at all. Hamilton was all over the back of Maldonado weaving side to side behind him before eventually taking to the inside, if Maldonado really didn't see him then that is poor awareness on his behalf. Overtakes in Monaco need the other driver to give a bit of space, unfortunately for Hamilton none of them wanted to give space. As you can see from Massa and Hamilton's crash you can see that Webber went wide, which led to Massa try and go up the inside of him but did not see Hamilton coming.

That's what I find so annoying about these FIA decisions. Sure it was an avoidable collision but every collision would be avoidable if nobody attempted an overtake. It was purely a racing incident and both drivers ruined their race (Hamilton's would have been ruined if it wasn't for the red flag) so I don't see why they need to be given a penalty on top of all this.

 

[hornet_burnout]

You haven't made your point. I was talking about slipstreaming in a straight line... The fact is, a driver can get close to the one in front on the straight, but due to turbulent air will lose downforce therefore, will be slower in the corners. Where's Ardius when you need him?

Digressing about aerodynamics and corners has turned it away from the basic point:

Current DRS is unfair, is artificially conditioning racing, and I do not like that.

The same way I don't like:
- mandatory tyres that artificially condition team strategies
- exaggerated driver penalties
- boost button in Indy
- yellow fags for "imaginary debris" in NASCAR to repack the field

 

[MarkWebber]

I just hope Webber can get something going, I'm sick aand tired of seeing him get demolished by his own team mate time after time, its unlike him.

 

[Hugo Boss]

Once he's side by side and in the braking zone how exactly do you expect him to be able to brake so much harder that he can let Maldanado through? Hamilton cut the corner and Maldonado still didn't give him enough room to avoid a collision, it was as if Maldonado did not see him at all. Hamilton was all over the back of Maldonado weaving side to side behind him before eventually taking to the inside, if Maldonado really didn't see him then that is poor awareness on his behalf. Overtakes in Monaco need the other driver to give a bit of space, unfortunately for Hamilton none of them wanted to give space. As you can see from Massa and Hamilton's crash you can see that Webber went wide, which led to Massa try and go up the inside of him but did not see Hamilton coming.

I can imagine people being a fan of Hamiltons (over)ambitious driving, but there's no discussion possible about who's fault the incidents are. In both cases it's 100% Hamilton to blame.

Hamilton could have avoided the collisions by braking earlier, he shouldn't have tried to make a pass at those situations in the first place. He was not far enough alongside Maldonado to make a pass, but still tried to outbrake Maldonado. Trying to outbrake/divebomb someone at Sainte Devote will result in a crash unless the driver in front is willing to give up his position and is not fully committed, like Schumacher was. If you're fully committed at that corner and give space, you'll crash. That's probably what happened to Massa in the tunnel. He was fully committed, noticed Hamilton was on the inside and then was forced into the decision how he wanted to crash, not if.

Regarding the incident at the hairpin, Massa almost got t-boned into the barrier. Even in BTCC that would result in a penalty. At slow hairpins you always have the chance of a traffic jam occurring. If you want to take advantage of it, you should initiate a pass in time, like Schumacher did on Hamilton in the opening lap. Hamilton initiated his pass when Massa already steered into the corner. In that case you're simply too late to try and make a pass.

That makes neither of these two collisions racing incidents. We've seen plenty of clean overtaking last race, it's just Hamilton who ran out of patience/talent twice.