2011 Formula One Grand Prix de Monaco

[Small_Fryz]

Well said 👍

 

[lmanion]

Hamiltons overtaking 'ability' is that he bombs up the inside from out of nowhere and expects to be given room because he perceives himself as the best of his generation. His general attitude especially when things aren't going well is just appalling and the thing that makes it worse are his fans who turn from fans into fanboys when it comes to him.

The penalty, imo, should have been a grid penalty for the next race at the very least.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I can imagine people being a fan of Hamiltons (over)ambitious driving, but there's no discussion possible about who's fault the incidents are. In both cases it's 100% Hamilton to blame.

Hamilton could have avoided the collisions by braking earlier, he shouldn't have tried to make a pass at those situations in the first place. He was not far enough alongside Maldonado to make a pass, but still tried to outbrake Maldonado. Trying to outbrake/divebomb someone at Sainte Devote will result in a crash unless the driver in front is willing to give up his position and is not fully committed, like Schumacher was. If you're fully committed at that corner and give space, you'll crash. That's probably what happened to Massa in the tunnel. He was fully committed, noticed Hamilton was on the inside and then was forced into the decision how he wanted to crash, not if.

Regarding the incident at the hairpin, Massa almost got t-boned into the barrier. Even in BTCC that would result in a penalty. At slow hairpins you always have the chance of a traffic jam occurring. If you want to take advantage of it, you should initiate a pass in time, like Schumacher did on Hamilton in the opening lap. Hamilton initiated his pass when Massa already steered into the corner. In that case you're simply too late to try and make a pass.

That makes neither of these two collisions racing incidents. We've seen plenty of clean overtaking last race, it's just Hamilton who ran out of patience/talent twice.

I agree about Maldonado but not about Massa.

In the tunnel, Massa and Massa alone decided to take that wide line, probably influenced by damage to his front wing. I doubt there is a driver on earth that wouldn't have taken the inside line as Hamilton did at that point. Massa caused his own crash, no one else.

The Hairpin? Mass went in too deep and hit Webber, that's what damaged Massa's front wing, then Hamilton went in too deep and hit Massa. I'd call that 50-50. A racing incident.

 

[Small_Fryz]

The Hairpin? Mass went in too deep and hit Webber, that's what damaged Massa's front wing, then Hamilton went in too deep and hit Massa. I'd call that 50-50. A racing incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT-dJMBiZhQ

Hamilton is barely beside Massa when entering that corner, and as you put it Massa went deep as well. Hamilton was never going to make that. You just cant dive bomb up the inside like that.

 

[Hugo Boss]

In the tunnel, Massa and Massa alone decided to take that wide line, probably influenced by damage to his front wing. I doubt there is a driver on earth that wouldn't have taken the inside line as Hamilton did at that point. Massa caused his own crash, no one else.

The Hairpin? Mass went in too deep and hit Webber, that's what damaged Massa's front wing, then Hamilton went in too deep and hit Massa. I'd call that 50-50. A racing incident.

If you read my post well I'm not blaming Hamilton for Massa's crash in the tunnel, I only used it as an example of what happens when you're fully committed to a corner that only has one narrow racing line and are being forced to the outside. You simply have nowhere to go other than end up in the barrier. Massa was in front and noticed too late that Hamilton was on the inside, so he didn't choose the wide line, he was forced into it. That does classify as a racing incident in the eyes of a race steward/objective spectator and that also explains why Hamilton received no penalty for that move. The only thing that's questionable is that Hamilton might have damaged Massa's car by driving into him 3 corners earlier, allowing Hamilton to get on the inside of Massa in the tunnel.

At the hairpin Massa only hit Webber after he was hit by Hamilton. Massa would never have hit Webber if Hamilton had stayed behind Massa. That makes the collision 100% Hamiltons fault and not a racing incident.

 

[UK-Gamer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT-dJMBiZhQ

Hamilton is barely beside Massa when entering that corner, and as you put it Massa went deep as well. Hamilton was never going to make that. You just cant dive bomb up the inside like that.

Hamilton wasn't in the right, but you can't blame him at around 0:07 there was a slight opening for him, but Massa turned in to capitalise on Webber's mistake so yes he turned in on him, but not on purpose.
What was it Ayrton Senna said
"If you no longer go for a gap, that exists, you are no longer a racing driver"
I admit, it was ambitious.

As for Massa's crash in the tunnel, everyone knows (or should know) that it was not Hamilton's fault.

 

[The Outlaw]

nm

 

[Greycap]

Hamilton should've backed off when he saw there was really no room to pass at the time and that he was going to cut the corner, not go for it anyway and try to push Pastor over so as to not cut the corner.

Pretty much this. I doubt he would have done that if the guardrail extended right to the apex as he would have run right into it long before the actual corner but now he had plenty of room outside the track to force his way through.

 

[BobK]

Seriously, he's pulling the race card now?

Errr, he was joking. Sheesh.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Hamilton could have avoided the collisions by braking earlier, he shouldn't have tried to make a pass at those situations in the first place. He was not far enough alongside Maldonado to make a pass, but still tried to outbrake Maldonado. Trying to outbrake/divebomb someone at Sainte Devote will result in a crash unless the driver in front is willing to give up his position and is not fully committed, like Schumacher was. If you're fully committed at that corner and give space, you'll crash.

Hamilton initiated his pass when Massa already steered into the corner. In that case you're simply too late to try and make a pass.

I would hardly have called it a divebomb, Hamilton's front wing is just about level with the Williams as they get in to the braking zone. If Maldonado had given room I don't think he would have neccessarily conceded the place as he was around half a car's length infront and may have been able to hold position around the outside.

As for the Massa crash, if you look at the video Lewis had already began to go up the inside as Massa turned in to the corner. Also he turned in to the corner so early because Webber ran slightly wide, if Massa had taken a conventional line then I'm sure there wouldn't have been contact. That's why Lewis attempted the overtake as he didn't expect Massa to turn in as early as he did. To say both accidents were 100% Lewis's fault is a bit harsh in my opinion.

 

[JediRage]

Errr, he was joking. Sheesh.

"Many a truth is said in jest". The truth as Hamilton sees it.

Anyway, its up to you what you think about this, I care not.

 

[F1 fan]

Digressing about aerodynamics and corners has turned it away from the basic point:

Current DRS is unfair, is artificially conditioning racing, and I do not like that.

Not really. It wouldn't work the way you envisage it.

 

[Hun200kmh]

DRS is like the irrealistic slipstream in GT5P and GT5.

Reminds me how in the good old days of GT5P I could glue myself to guys like zabeu at Suzuka, although they were clearly better drivers.

And with this comparison what I mean is ... DRS is an artificial way to close the gap between the good and the very good. Making the guy ahead a sitting duck ... not good, not even fair.

Bottom line: I don't like it. Reduce the wings and the wake of the cars even further, improve mechanical grip as much as you can, but don't use different rules for the car ahead and the car behind.

 

[Barra333]

DRS is like the irrealistic slipstream in GT5P and GT5.

Reminds me how in the good old days of GT5P I could glue myself to guys like zabeu at Suzuka, although they were clearly better drivers.

And with this comparison what I mean is ... DRS is an artificial way to close the gap between the good and the very good. Making the guy ahead a sitting duck ... not good, not even fair.

Bottom line: I don't like it. Reduce the wings and the wake of the cars even further, improve mechanical grip as much as you can, but don't use different rules for the car ahead and the car behind.

I see your point, but I don't think it is as bad as the GT5 slipstream. Yes, DRS is artificially making the car behind faster, but I think pretty much after every DRS related pass, the overtaking car has driven off into the distance. I don't recall any incidents of a clearly inferior car making a pass

By the way, in adding to your understanding of the strangeness of the English language, it should be unrealistic, not irrealistic 👍

 

[kimi123]

Hamilton always looked like he wanted to crash. He deserves the peanilties. Vettel winning again Mclaren had the pace and Alonso got lucky too. Eventful race but again SC and strategy worked for RBR.

 

[Peter.]

Once he's side by side and in the braking zone how exactly do you expect him to be able to brake so much harder that he can let Maldanado through? Hamilton cut the corner and Maldonado still didn't give him enough room to avoid a collision, it was as if Maldonado did not see him at all. Hamilton was all over the back of Maldonado weaving side to side behind him before eventually taking to the inside, if Maldonado really didn't see him then that is poor awareness on his behalf. Overtakes in Monaco need the other driver to give a bit of space, unfortunately for Hamilton none of them wanted to give space. As you can see from Massa and Hamilton's crash you can see that Webber went wide, which led to Massa try and go up the inside of him but did not see Hamilton coming.

That's what I find so annoying about these FIA decisions. Sure it was an avoidable collision but every collision would be avoidable if nobody attempted an overtake. It was purely a racing incident and both drivers ruined their race (Hamilton's would have been ruined if it wasn't for the red flag) so I don't see why they need to be given a penalty on top of all this.

If Maldonado moved over, he'd have hit the exit barrier for sure. Hamilton was coming from too far back for there not to be a collision there. When he tried it on Schumacher earlier, and succeeded, he was already somewhat side by side by the time it was time to brake. He was a good way back before diving down the inside.

 

[Enzo309]

Jenson Button should have won in Monaco if there was less crashes made by hamilton to ruin button's race

He was pulling away with soft tyres then the safety car comes out which meant the gap he made from those soft tyres were all down the drain and because the tyres have weared already because softs chew up faster but gives more grip.

The gap between vettel and button was not far away infact button was just behind at the finish line.

But if there wasn't DRS then button wouldn't be as close

 

[Terronium-12]

Jenson Button should have won in Monaco if there was less crashes made by hamilton to ruin button's race

He was pulling away with soft tyres then the safety car comes out which meant the gap he made from those soft tyres were all down the drain and because the tyres have weared already because softs chew up faster but gives more grip.

The gap between vettel and button was not far away infact button was just behind at the finish line.

But if there wasn't DRS then button wouldn't be as close

What? Hamilton had nothing to do with the safety car emerging during that lap. I think that might have been Alguesari or Di Resta; I can't remember the incident that well right now.

 

[Prince.M5]

Jenson Button should have won in Monaco if there was less crashes made by hamilton to ruin button's race

Hamilton has nothing to do with the presence of safety car in the later stages of the race. It was due to an incident with Sutil who has a puntcure, Alguersuari who made a contact with the rear wing of Hamilton as a result of being held up by Sutil and Petrov who made a contact with the barrier to avoid more devastating incidents. If you want to blame anybody, you could blame Sutil for expiring his tyres or Petrov who crashed and probably damaged the barrier that needed to be fixed. In anyway, it's not fair though. This is what we call racing and that anything can happen... By the way, I'm pretty sure it was Sutil or was it Di Resta?

 

[Anes]

Wow unbanned. Didn't see that happening.

re Hamilton. I'm not surprised by his attitude or his outburst. He's always been spoilt in regards to F1 and joining a top team from day one. He really does think he's the best ever. What made me lol about the whole thing was that Schumacher made his pass on the hairpin on Hamilton cleanly (first time I've ever seen a pass there) and then watching Hamilton try the exact same move and getting a drive through penalty for smashing into the side of Massa. Hamilton will never be on par with the greats.

Edit: Hamilton threatens to leave F1 http://www.todayonline.com/Sports/EDC110531-0000097/Its-my-way-or-the-highway

Probs a re post. Meh I've been away for 6 months

 

[Terronium-12]

Taken from the above article:

All the tension just boiled up. I did feel some drivers did not really leave me much space and I received penalties for those.

"At the end of the day this is motorsport and we are supposed to see racing. Not many people overtake in Monaco and I tried to do that. I was the fastest and I could have won the grand prix happily.

I love how even after all of this he's still trying to play the innocent card, and really, he was the fastest? Funny, because the way I remember things it was Button, Alonso, and Vettel that were resetting fastest laps. As bad as his performance was I'm surprised he wasn't lapped.

 

[lukecfc]

Hamilton wasn't in the right, but you can't blame him at around 0:07 there was a slight opening for him, but Massa turned in to capitalise on Webber's mistake so yes he turned in on him, but not on purpose.
What was it Ayrton Senna said
"If you no longer go for a gap, that exists, you are no longer a racing driver"
I admit, it was ambitious.

As for Massa's crash in the tunnel, everyone knows (or should know) that it was not Hamilton's fault.

I personally don't think it was Hamiltons fault, because a gap had appeared and he would have made it had Massa not turned in a bit earlier to overtake Webber. It wasn't Massa's fault either as he was making a clean overtaking maneuver and had no idea Louis was coming up behind him. If anything it was Webbers fault for running wide, but theres no way he can be blamed for the collision. Yes, when looking at Loius's day at Monaco, it doesn't look good for him being involved in this, but as you say, any racing driver would not have passed up that opportunity, and he can not be blamed for this accident.

When Massa crashed later, Louis had nothing to do with it so I agree, Felipe messed up the tunnel, no way was it Hamiltons fault.

The Maldonado accident, however, was completely Hamilton's fault. He turned in way too early and fast and "understeered". I say that in quotation marks, because anyone who has played GT5 online will know this maneuver only too well. There was no way he was going to make that corner, his move was desperate and unsporting.

Louis's attitude in the interview gave the impression that he thought could do whatever the hell he felt like. If he believes himself to be completely innocent, why the cocky attitude? Usually when people are accused of something they didn't do, they are surprised and stay calm knowing they will soon be in the clear. Hamilton's attitude was that of someone guilty of a crime, but confident knowing that daddy's rich lawyers will have him clear in no time. He definitely deserves a grid or points penalty.

 

[Terronium-12]

I personally don't think it was Hamiltons fault, because a gap had appeared and he would have made it had Massa not turned in a bit earlier to overtake Webber. It wasn't Massa's fault either as he was making a clean overtaking maneuver and had no idea Louis was coming up behind him. If anything it was Webbers fault for running wide, but theres no way he can be blamed for the collision. Yes, when looking at Loius's day at Monaco, it doesn't look good for him being involved in this, but as you say, any racing driver would not have passed up that opportunity, and he can not be blamed for this accident.

When Massa crashed later, Louis had nothing to do with it so I agree, Felipe messed up the tunnel, no way was it Hamiltons fault.

The Maldonado accident, however, was completely Hamilton's fault. He turned in way too early and fast and "understeered". I say that in quotation marks, because anyone who has played GT5 online will know this maneuver only too well. There was no way he was going to make that corner, his move was desperate and unsporting.

Louis's attitude in the interview gave the impression that he thought could do whatever the hell he felt like. If he believes himself to be completely innocent, why the cocky attitude? Usually when people are accused of something they didn't do, they are surprised and stay calm knowing they will soon be in the clear. Hamilton's attitude was that of someone guilty of a crime, but confident knowing that daddy's rich lawyers will have him clear in no time. He definitely deserves a grid or points penalty.

It wasn't his fault? Were we watching the same race this past Sunday?

Lewis practically dove in to Massa in a hairpin where the only way you're overtaking is if the driver ahead is willing to run wide enough to allow it (a la Schumacher overtaking Rosberg). None of that even matters as, if you watch the onboard footage, Lewis already jumped the apex and was riding the rumble strip. What the hell did he think would happen?

I'm surprised he didn't gesture at him either.

 

[UK-Gamer]

It wasn't his fault? Were we watching the same race this past Sunday?

Lewis practically dove in to Massa in a hairpin where the only way you're overtaking is if the driver ahead is willing to run wide enough to allow it (a la Schumacher overtaking Rosberg). None of that even matters as, if you watch the onboard footage, Lewis already jumped the apex and was riding the rumble strip. What the hell did he think would happen?

I'm surprised he didn't gesture at him either.

As I said, a gap appeared at 0:07 secs in that video, and it wasn't disappearing. Then, Webber ran wide and Massa dove into the inside to capitalise, not knowing that Lewis was having a go. So yes Massa "turned in on him" but on purpose? No.

 

[Submerged]

Reading a part of the discussion with Hammy's disappointing and quite frankly awful show of believing that he's the mutt's nuts and all......

I can't help but wonder if he either has too many "yes men" or people around him who fawn over him or he just has decided to try and do things his own way rather than be guided (talking about the interview).

Additionally, he was rather over-optimistic with his overtakes. The Massa one, as I saw it, was NEVER going to happen at all. He should have known that a Fezza car is never going to give way to him. Also I got the feeling that Hammy was feeling super angry at the tunnel and went to overtake him there even though it generally isn't the place to overtake either (I believe he used most of his KERS at that point).

The whole race whenever the camera showed Hammy's car, it seemed to show a lot of aggression and frustration in the way he was driving and attempting to provoke the other car to make a mistake. This is racing and it should be part of the racecraft. My issue is that he was displaying a lot of it, more so than would be reasonable. This is making me wonder what is going on in that man's head.

Although, Jenson Button's race was almost sublime. Loved his attack before the safety car. Gave it a much needed excitement!

 

[Matti_Dude]

If Maldonado moved over, he'd have hit the exit barrier for sure. Hamilton was coming from too far back for there not to be a collision there. When he tried it on Schumacher earlier, and succeeded, he was already somewhat side by side by the time it was time to brake. He was a good way back before diving down the inside.

Maldonado didn't cover the inside though and gave Hamilton some space to get side by side with him and yet Maldonado still gave no room.

 

[Seismica]

Maldonado didn't cover the inside though and gave Hamilton some space to get side by side with him and yet Maldonado still gave no room.

But Hamilton was too far back before they started braking to be side by side by the apex.

When I saw it it kind of reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkrBvE6eL6I&feature=related

Bearing in mind that the cars are closer at Monaco because they are travelling at a lower speed, and Hamilton braked too late.

 

[Matti_Dude]

But Hamilton was too far back before they started braking to be side by side by the apex.

When I saw it it kind of reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkrBvE6eL6I&feature=related

Bearing in mind that the cars are closer at Monaco because they are travelling at a lower speed, and Hamilton braked too late.

But in the braking zone you can see that Hamilton gets more than half way alongside when he realises that Maldonado isn't going to give him any room. So Lewis brakes harder and then cuts the corner yet there is still contact. I'm not saying what Lewis was did is right but it definately wasn't 100% his fault.

 

[Tired Tyres]

But in the braking zone you can see that Hamilton gets more than half way alongside when he realises that Maldonado isn't going to give him any room. So Lewis brakes harder and then cuts the corner yet there is still contact. I'm not saying what Lewis was did is right but it definately wasn't 100% his fault.

Race drivers can't break harder. They are already breaking as hard as they can or they are locked up.

 

[BobK]

... don't use different rules for the car ahead and the car behind.

This.