2012 Canadian Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by Ross, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. ExigeEvan

    ExigeEvan Premium

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    I don't see the issue with DRS. If you're clearly faster then the other car then it simply hastens the passing of road-block drivers. But if the 2 cars are competitive then the defensive car can always counter attack on the next lap of DRS. It's as simple as that.

    So many people have complained about one sided seasons in the past, and yet now we have a massively open season with 7 different winners in 7 races and people are still complaining. It's not like the tyres are supplied differently to each team, they all have the same qualities, it's simply how each team uses them and how the car wears them.

    Not sure where you saw aggressive, either.
     
  2. niky

    niky Moderator

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    Wasn't replying to the DRS thing... I was replying about the tires.... I actually used to agree about the DRS... but it's interesting... would be even more interesting if it was allowed all the time... :D ...or if they simply uncapped the time limit for KERS and did away with DRS altogether.

    ...And apologies if it came off as aggressive... but it's true. In any form of motorsport, outside variables come into play that a driver must take into account. Go-Karts, in fact, still have the tire variable... and so did F1 before the new tires. It's just that with the grip and downforce of the cars then, balancing the cars on those tires was easier.

    I'm betting that nowadays, if we still had those Bridgestones, people would be hard-pressed to win with a no-stop strategy (if it were even legal)... simply because F1 cars have lost a lot of rear downforce in the past season, and juggling braking with KERS adds to the complication.
     
  3. Alex p.

    Alex p.

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    Variables? Hm yeah ok, because tyres are the only variable during a race? Not gonna bother anymore, you have your opinion, I have mine.
     
  4. Ardius

    Ardius

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    As I said before, just get rid of DRS for this race. It isn't needed. The tyres only make the DRS advantage worse. This track generates overtaking regardless of what cars are on the track and breaks cars and drivers as well as creates different strategies.

    Okish race. I'm not liking the trend of recent races where the actual racing is kind of boring with flash-in-the-pan overtaking battles which last a couple of corners. The results and championship is very interesting. Of course its great to see Grosjean and Perez on the podium but it was 15th to 3rd for Perez with very little battling at all. It was almost entirely strategy and bad luck/poor strategy for others.

    Its a strange season. Races I normally enjoy a lot have been 50/50 either great or average but races that are normally boring have been amazing.
     
  5. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    So Hamilton won did he? Sadly I couldn't watch it due to the ridiculous lack of TV coverage... :mad:

    6 winners from 6 races is mad. 5 teams from the first 5 races... Imagine if every race was won by a different driver. (Not that that's going to happen. For starters it would basically either require Schumacher to actually finish a race or one of the Caterhams to win a race. If I'm honest I'm not sure what's more likely.)
     
  6. Ardius

    Ardius

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    ^7 winners. ;)
     
  7. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Perez would beg to differ, Ardius. (see press conference)
     
  8. niky

    niky Moderator

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    So what's wrong with tires wearing out, then? All tires wear out. What they are simply doing with the new tires is ensuring that the tires wear out before the end of the race... not after it. Thanks to this, they can actually do away with the stupid "must use both compounds" rule... and I hope they do.
     
  9. lbsf1

    lbsf1

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    Trust me, there are enough variables in karting, less than f1 however they are still most definitely present. For example I was reading Jenson Buttons autobiography and he was talking about how he had taken too much out of his tyres in the prefinal of karting and thus was slower in the actual final.
     
  10. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Hmm, I think the tyres wear a little too much all at once though. It wasn't really fun to watch Alonso helpless to defend his position at all - fair enough have it so the tyres get worn so that Alonso can be caught and a battle ensue..but at least allow the drivers to defend themselves.

    Pirelli need to sort out the "cliff" and make it a bit more curved slope.
     
  11. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

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    Very brave for Alonso to stay out when he knew the pace was starting to go away from him. Lucky he didn't lose more positions at the very end. However, that was a fantastic race!

    Great push from Hamilton, great drive from Grosjean and of course great effort by Perez to secure the last podium finish. Both Lotus and Sauber managed the tyres very well, even after 40 laps the tyres were still there and the car clocked in a quick time.

    I'm so dissapointed with Button. Don't know what went wrong, but he was just nowhere on the pace and just simply drove his own race at the back. Something needs to be done there. He's currently dropping down and his performance has dropped even further as more races gone by. Not impressed...
     
  12. ROAD_DOGG33J

    ROAD_DOGG33J Premium

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    I find defense a part of the race. I don't see the point of DRS when tire performance differs so much between cars. One of my best memories is Alonso's defense from Schumacher at Imola.

    I'm still be bit mixed on the issue. The tires made the racing a bit more exciting in 2011, but Vettel still dominated.

    The tire performance seems to differ so much for different conditions. Building a better car seems less important than luck and strategy with the tires.

    Telling me to go watch something without variables because I complained about the tires.

    That's what I read it as. I wouldn't mind getting rid of DRS and moving towards uncapped KERS.

    I can agree on the both compounds rule.





    I saw it during the race and Brundle brought it up again that Ferrari had Massa as a gauge for the tires.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  13. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Button was the only one still having serious locking up issues and traction problems. Don't know how his car could be as different from Hamilton's except for wrong setup. Less practice running explains some, but doesn't excuse that completely.
     
  14. Prince.M5

    Prince.M5

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    Exactly. Can't be that he lost a considerable amount of time on Friday, ended up in him being extremely struggling for the race. I was surprised that he couldn't even keep the harder compound tyres at the start a little longer. I know that set has had 5 laps under their belt but that's no reason why he pitted so early. A messed up race after all...
     
  15. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    :ouch: 7 winners from 7 races is even madder. I thought Hamilton won in Australia, but it was Button.

    Anyway, according to the news these were the points, can't remember what channel it was on, but I noted down the numbers anyway, the thing is that last time I did this and posted the points everyone said they were wrong, so could you tell me if these are the standings, they didn't seem to be on autosport.

    Hamilton 84
    Alonso 80
    Webber 67
    Vettel 60
    Rosberg 57
    Button 45
    Grosjean 38
    Raikkonen 37
    Perez 37
    Maldonado 29
    Kobayashi 21
    Senna 15
    di Resta 13
    Massa 9
    Hulkenburg 7
    Vergne 4
    Ricciardo 2
    Schumacher 1
     
  16. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I think the answer with Button is pretty simple - and why these tyres are a little frustrating to watch for the racing - temperature/tyre warm-up. He simply can't get heat into the fronts. This leads to lock-ups and then the problem just gets worse and worse.
    Why was he better earlier in the year? Cooler conditions, different track surfaces, so many variables. Not to mention this is a low downforce track whereas Melbourne for example is higher downforce.

    I find it frustrating though to watch driver's helpless like that. I'm still of two minds really. I like the championship being open the the results being different each time out. But its just a little too random. A lot of the teams are rolling dice here not knowing what the exact temperatures and conditions are going to do with the tyres.

    I agree that tyre conservation and strategy should be part of F1. But I don't think it should be almost random and such a powerful factor.
     
  17. SilverArrow

    SilverArrow

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    Sorry but those are very wrong. :lol:
     
  18. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    What are the correct points then, how are the ones off the news wrong?
     
  19. CarolinaBlue704

    CarolinaBlue704

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    You'd think F1 has turned into a lottery reading some of the complaints about the tires. Yet the current standings paint a different picture. The three best drivers on the grid today (Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel) are 1, 2, 3 in the championship. Funny how that works...

    As for the race itself. I thought that Ferrari took an unnecessary gamble. I believe Hamilton was leading Alonso by about 2.5 seconds before his final (slow) pit stop. Ferrari would have been in great position to win the race if they pitted Alonso one or two laps after Hamilton. Maybe Ferrari didn't feel as though they had the race pace to beat Hamilton on a 2-stop strategy.

    It was good to see Hamilton finally get a win. He is really driving great this season. Though McLaren has got to cut out the mistakes. Perez and Grosjean were very impressive, as well. Schumacher... can't buy a break.

    He's right. They're wrong.
     
  20. Alex p.

    Alex p.

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    They aren't. I posted the right ones a few pages back.
     
  21. SilverArrow

    SilverArrow

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    1 Lewis Hamilton 88
    2 Fernando Alonso 86
    3 Sebastian Vettel 85
    4 Mark Webber 79
    5 Nico Rosberg 67
    6 Kimi Räikkönen 55
    7 Romain Grosjean 53
    8 Jenson Button 45
    9 Sergio Perez 37
    10 Pastor Maldonado 29
    11 Kamui Kobayashi 21
    12 Paul di Resta 21
     
  22. Roger the Horse

    Roger the Horse

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    Found them, but it's only the top ten drivers.


     
  23. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Granted. Room to improve, but better than almost 100% predictable and teams forcing drivers to do "engeniered" races to win.
     
  24. Ross

    Ross Premium

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  25. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I just prefer a battle wheel-to-wheel on track (Villenueve/Arnoux style) rather than a stategy game to a result.
    I certainly don't want to go back to 2004 era F1 but at least back then both drivers in a battle had a chance to defend and attack about equally - it was just difficult get into the position to attack.
    DRS is meant to help boost the cars into a position to attack but instead it provides easy overtakes.
    The tyres take away the equal footing and make it so that drivers simply can't do anything when their strategy has played out.

    I feel there is also a line where tyre conservation and strategy is getting so extreme that its more of an endurance race - where its about pacing to avoid using fuel/tyres too much and staying out the pits. I feel like F1 is becoming a little too endurance styled.
    For sure its a tricky balance but I don't really enjoy the actual on-track action in F1 lately.

    Maybe its best to simplify it as this:
    -Strategy is unpredictable but:
    -Overtaking is very predictable.
     
  26. hornet_burnout

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    I agree tire conservation is extreme, not strategy. How drivers push each other now messes with the strategy a lot, wereas in the past everyone knew how to be the fastest (race long) and could stick to strategy with relative ease.
     
  27. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Well last year was pretty fine with strategy - different strategies could work..actually running long didn't really work that well seeing as Sauber did it every single bloody race in 2011 and it worked like twice.

    In fact, I've never felt there has ever been a problem with strategies in F1 - it should really only ever be a choice between 2 or 3 stop most of the time. Maybe a 1-stop or 4-stop on the rare occasion. I don't think anyone has ever really complained about this side of the sport.
    But this year strategy is the very thing which has been screwed up. Teams plan to do a strategy and it will either work amazing or a complete disaster.

    Look, its not that I don't like seeing teams/drivers taking risks and choosing different options and strategies. Its that the teams/drivers almost seem to be at the mercy of the tyres. What looks like a safe strategy ends up looking a risky strategy half-way through the race.
    No one seems to know what they are really doing each race weekend. Is it Paul Di Resta or Force India's fault that their strategy didn't work? Should they make a better car setup or develop the car to be faster?
    It seems no longer is it about making the car faster but making the car work with the tyres more consistently than other teams. And if your car doesn't work with the tyres from the beginning or only works in specific temperature ranges what can you do?

    It almost feels like the tyre wars era where certain teams were screwed simply because they have Bridgestones or Michelins and they happen to be the "wrong" tyre. Tyres shouldn't play this big a part. They should be a part of the overall formula but they shouldn't be so strong in determining the race outcomes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  28. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Got it. And yes. An apparently good or half good strategy can turn into a nightmare... A bit too much. A slight improvement in the peak of the Pirellis would be welcome.

    But I don't agree with wrong tire/right tire. They all use the same, and have to use both compounds. Not tire strategy per se, but tire management. The latter being able to ruin the first, a bit too much.

    Still, great races and championship imo :tup:
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  29. Bram Turismo

    Bram Turismo Premium

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    I don't think the tyres are too random this season, I think they're fine. Overall we're seeing two classes so far this season; You have teams like Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari who are pushing their tyres until that cliff arrives. This cliff forces these top teams to play their tire game smart, instead of recklessly clocking those fastest laps over and over. Then we have teams like Sauber and Lotus who score bonus points on having a car that is so nice on the tyres.

    It seems the only one struggling with these tyres is Button. And I'd say it's a problem of his own, and not the tyres since no one else seems to be struggling with them.

    I'd pick these Pirelli tyres where you know there is a cliff incoming, but you have no idea when it's near, rather than the old Bridgestones where every team knew exactly how long their tyres would last, making tyre strategies nearly non-existent.
     
  30. hornet_burnout

    hornet_burnout

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    Button was the tire master, now he's not making it work at all... Maybe he's under-driving them? Not getting them just to the right temperature? Do they wear out when cold as much as being over-driven?