2014 engines: inline-fours out, turbo-charged V6 engines in

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by prisonermonkeys, Sep 4, 2010.

  1. R0ssingt0n

    R0ssingt0n

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    Well to me it just seems that soon there will be absolutely no room for any teams to experiment/innovate at all. It's probably also a good idea to read some of my posts with sarcasm in mind :lol:
     
  2. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Ah, thanks for the info.
     
  3. sumbrownkid

    sumbrownkid Premium

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    Spec F1 transmissions I can see teams throwing a gigantic hissy fit until the FIA heeds their tantrums.

    I mean Ferrari advertises their transmissions being a descendent of F1 blood.
     
  4. braunracing88

    braunracing88 (Banned)

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  5. SilverArrow

    SilverArrow

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    Where exactly does this "spec" transmissions thing come from? Also, why would the teams be angry when the fixed ratios thing was their idea?
     
  6. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    They have increased the number of gears to 8 I believe. I think what they have in mind is for that 8th gear to be sort of like an overdrive gear for the higher speed straights and such, unlike the current 7th gear with is used on pretty much every straight. Tracks like Monaco will probably see the drivers not using the final gear at all.

    It adds a great deal of engineering challenge and will likely result in some teams getting it wrong and suffering for it (Either in terms of pace, engine/drivetrain reliability or fuel consumption). Every tenth of a second counts, but this is not drag racing, there are far more significant factors in terms of pace than the gear ratios.

    I still think that it's a bad idea, but there is real potential here. Sometimes regulation restrictions like this prompt the teams to find ways around the problem. It might actually do some good for the sport, we'll just have to wait and see.

    I agree with this. It needs to be a trial period and not something the sport adopts on a more permanant basis. But there is a possibility, however small, that it could be good for the sport and see some interesting new innovations (Though I personally think they should just allow CVTs and be done with it).

    -

    As for the engines, I think they will grow on us. I personally loved the sound of the old V10s and was never a fan of the V8s. I think when we see the V6s in action they won't be as bad as we think. The video posted about the Ferrari V6 sounds far too clean, it's like something out of Gran Turismo. I'm 100% certain it won't sound like that at the track.
     
  7. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    I agree with this, but this is the FIA we are talking about at the end of the day.



    I was a fan of the old six cylinders and V10s never was a fan of the V12s, though I was a fan of the V8 early on the off throttle version and limited revs has made me dislike them. I don't really like hearing and engine bounce off the limiter. I even liked the BMW 4cylinder...

    I can't say I like the idea of a CVT, it's great and works well in my new car but for the race track I'm not so sure.
     
  8. Ardius

    Ardius

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    They will probably sound quite a bit like the current Indycars. And they're pretty underwhelming track-side (no where near as loud as the F1 V8s). The turbo takes a lot of volume out of the sound.

    However, I do believe they can still sound good on TV, the problem is with how they record the video and audio. If they used onboards as raw as this, it would be a lot more awesome:


    Sometimes HD perfect quality image and sound is not everything, over-production is seriously killing the fun. Put some cheap GoPros on the cars instead of whatever they use at the moment. It would be much more interesting than the current sedate onboards we get.
     
  9. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    There is certainly a problem with the sound on TV. There is too much noise cancelling etc. so what you end up with is far to quiet and far too clean. There is a huge difference between this:



    and this:



    There is a video floating around somewhere of an onboard camera that recorded the pure sound without any over-processing, but only for a few seconds before it went quiet again (I think it was from Monaco, trying to find it now).

    EDIT: This is it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5dnzk8DXtI&t=7s

    Though that's still far too clean compared to what you will hear at the track. I feel it will be the same with the V6s. Once people hear them at the track, people are going to like them.

    It will make the cars faster for certain. The only problem is the sound as it would not change pitch due to the RPM being constant when on the throttle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
  10. Seismica

    Seismica Premium

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    *Double post*
     
  11. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I disagree, the current Indycars are pretty underwhelming compared when stood trackside. They won't have the same impact the screaming V8s have or the V10s before them.

    To put it in perspective, some of the BTCC touring cars are louder than the current Indycars....or at least they feel louder.
     
  12. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    Exactly my point it will be strange due to it being in the higher power band constantly with hardly much elevation change for more or less in the pitch. Though I do agree it will get their faster for sure.

    I've heard sixes and four cylinders louder or as loud as some V8s, what your point? I think you're just one of those guys that clings to a time that F1 was in and isn't myopic enough for change until you actually have to one day face it and say "well can't do anything about it...". You know in 10 years if they want to go to fours you could be right back here saying the same thing, the only difference is you'd probably be calling for V6s, V8s or V10s.

    F1 is a constant changing environment I don't know why anyone would want the formula to be static or the main stay.
     
  13. Ardius

    Ardius

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    Nope, I've never had the pleasure of hearing any F1 engine prior to 2011 when I went to Silverstone. So I can only talk about the V8 era and compare the sound with what I have experienced.
    The sound of the cars is seriously amazing even from a mile away, its like nothing else I've ever heard motorcars wise. It's like the first time you hear a jet fighter go full afterburner.

    Whereas I went to the Indy 500 this year and was a little bit disappointed with the sound, it was roughly half the volume of the F1 engines. It took the edge off the event a little for me just because I knew there were/are louder cars. I don't know, the really loud V8s were just special to hear.

    Not everyone that likes the old ways is an old man getting nostalgic you know. The loud engines are definitely a part of the experience for me, maybe they aren't for you but I definitely know I'd prefer loud engines.

    Don't you just love it when people justify change with "it's change". :rolleyes: I don't oppose change, I oppose changes that I don't like. If they said they were changing to V12s and stick-shifts I would be pretty damn happy!
    I do however realise that smaller engines are what manufacturers and to a lesser extent sponsors want. I'm not a moron.
    But that doesn't mean I have to like it, only put up with it. I can still enjoy small turbo engines..but I will definitely miss the sheer raw-sounding power of the V8s. That's all.

    Why am I having to explain this?
     
  14. hawkeye122

    hawkeye122

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    So, has anybody seen this(These) articles? Thanks to the people over at Midweek Motorsport/Radio Le Mans

    http://jalopnik.com/how-much-can-cn...source=jalopnik_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

    Complete with diagram on how CNN describes (Rather poorly) regular engines and Turbo engines. It's as if they hired a waitress who commutes each day, whilst majoring in Psychology at her local Community College, to write the article.

    It would be one thing if it was a local news article- they get stuff wrong ALL the time. But this is CNN ffs. There must be SOMEONE there who knows how an engine works...
     
  15. LMSCorvetteGT2

    LMSCorvetteGT2

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    I've experienced many different type of loud engines, it's the racing that matters to me. It's this attitude that it has to be one way or don't bother at all, that hurts a sport in the end.

    Cause you felt challenged maybe, how should I know why you want to explain this...

    My point which you seem to further help me justify my suspicious is that you do in fact not have an objective view on change. Which is basically what I already said in the prior post. Changes can't be looked at with a bias toward the past because you nor I nor anyone else know the full effect of how they will be until implemented fully. I don't think F1 should go backwards unless it is ground effects due to the ability for it too to be advanced further. Though going back or trying to have archaic things isn't what F1 as a pinnacle of engineering, technology and racing is all about.

    As far as the missing stuff you basically just said what I thought you would have...only time will tell if they grow on you like the V8s did.

    CNN only knows how to do sensationalized news, court of public opinion Court coverage, and Presidential Elections to the annoying nth degree. When it comes to actual informative news or anything they couldn't do it in a thousand years.
     
  16. Ardius

    Ardius

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    I seem to be missing something here, where did I say "don't bother at all" or "it shouldn't change"?
    So far all I have said is that I don't like the change in sound and that I think the engines will be underwhelming sound wise.

    I didn't make any comment on whether this is good or bad for F1.

    I'm not sure how you can say "grow on you like the V8s did". How are you in any position to tell me how I thought about the V8s? If you must know, (and as I said in my previous post) I never heard any F1 engine till 2011 with the V8s. They didn't need to "grow on me".
    Quit making sweeping assumptions about how I think.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  17. Pupik

    Pupik Staff Emeritus

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    I don't really care much about the engine noises; today's high-spinning V8 engines don't have much audible zing (from hearing it on TV, that is). I suppose if the engine droned on and on, it might be a turn-off, but that's not what I hear with these turbo engines. Bring them on, why not?

    Yes, I giggled at the CNN article.
     
  18. BHRxRacer

    BHRxRacer (Banned)

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    Egh. I'll believe the transmission thing when it's confirmed. I don't think they'll go through with it, they'll probably cancel. Right now it's too stupid to be true, especially if the teams get to fix the ratios and not the FIA. It'll make the racing completely random from race to race.

    With that said, I still think the engine noise is a bigger deal than ANYTHING that can happen to F1. Bigger than strapping Stinger missiles on the rear wing instead of DRS.

    The gears will spoil the racing for sure, but I've seen many boring races and seasons before. However what I believe to be the heart of a formula one car was still there, the engine. To your 5 senses, the only thing truly separating F1 cars from any other is the noise. It's almost unbelievable that a man made machine can be that loud. Jet fighters are briefly loud but not as sharp. Gunshots and bombs last a fraction of a second so they don't really count as a sound.

    I'm not sure how many of you heard the V10s in person but those things could be heard from literally 5 kilometers away, if not more. I used to hear the cars far away on the highway on my way to the track. The V8s aren't audible from that far away, and aren't as ear shattering and (literally) ground shaking as the V10s but they still gave me Tinnitus last year when I lost my ear plugs. I had to shut my ears with my fingers the whole session, because when I didn't when ONE car passed by it felt like a drill going through my brain.
     
  19. Peasantslayer

    Peasantslayer

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  20. Wardez

    Wardez Staff Emeritus

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    Yeah, we knew they would have a strong engine as well as Ferrari, which no one's talked about yet. I bet you anything Ferrari will either be at the same point or a little better even.

    I don't know why Renault always goes so conservative, they're gonna make things a nightmare for all their teams. It'll especially piss off Alonso if he does end up making the switch to RBR and Kimi blasts by him in his old seat down the straights.
     
  21. SVT Cobra GT

    SVT Cobra GT

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    100HP more than the other engines?

    Isn't there a regulation governing the power output? Or is it just the rev limit?
     
  22. Wardez

    Wardez Staff Emeritus

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    Fuel flow, that's pretty much it. Lots of other little things, but no hard HP reg's no.
     
  23. SVT Cobra GT

    SVT Cobra GT

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    Ah I see, is there a regulation on the turbo boost pressure? If there is then surely thats one way of governing the HP. So Mercedes don't end up with a 1000BHP engine and Ferrari and Renault turn up with 900.

    They toned down the pressures each year back in the '80s if I remember rightly.
     
  24. Wardez

    Wardez Staff Emeritus

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    No hard-set regulation no, the teams regulate the pressure themselves according to other tolerances in the design.

    Here's a good chart on the differences in reg's from the engine freeze period, 2007-2013, to next year:

    [​IMG]
    Source for chart here:
    http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/06/21/renault-reveals-2014-f1-engine/

    And what makes up the difference in power is how far each team is willing to go, or how confident, in maintaining and balancing power with reliability. Mercedes found solutions in building up stronger components in certain areas of the engine that allowed them to increase the power within their set tolerances.
     
  25. Lizard

    Lizard Premium

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    Because it is more drivable. The driver can put his foot down and trust the Renault more to put all that power into the track rather than destroying tyres etc with it.

    100bhp? That is huge. Pretty much everywhere other than Monaco Mercedes would rule.
     
  26. Wardez

    Wardez Staff Emeritus

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    More drivable? I don't think that's it at all. Engineers would always prefer more power. They would much rather make the car more drivable through tuning the chassis/suspension than less power.

    And yes, I know drivers dial their engines down toward the end of the race now, but that's for fuel saving and strategy, not "drivability" imo. These are F1 drivers we're talking about.
     
  27. SVT Cobra GT

    SVT Cobra GT

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    I doubt an extra 100HP would be too much for an F1 driver these days, as Wardez said they could turn the power down if absolutley necessary.

    That chart is really good too. Quite interested how the single exhaust will be implicated in next years designs. I'm also wondering if we'll see quite a dramatic change in the cars' looks as the front nose has to be 185mm above the ground from next year and I'd imagine they'll need a bit more space to accomodate the ERS unit. Unless that is compensated by 2 less cylinders and smaller fuel tank.

    I'm imagining the front noses would return to a sloping look like the 2009 Brawn and Ferrari.
     
  28. DemurgicDemon

    DemurgicDemon

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    Isn't it funny how they've said nothing about the power output of the engines on that chart? Really tells you something doesn't it? :indiff:
     
  29. Wardez

    Wardez Staff Emeritus

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    When both ERS's are dumped, they'll make the same amount of power as they do now, so it's not a big deal.
     
  30. Pupik

    Pupik Staff Emeritus

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    It's a cold war arms race whereby nobody is going to release exact figures...I'm not putting any stock in so-called "hundred horsepower" advantages, until race day.