2014 engines: inline-fours out, turbo-charged V6 engines in

[IforceV8]

“Efficiency is the key thing,” he concluded. “You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race. It is a significant change to the efficiency of the car.”


Nothing says exciting racing like cars driving around saving fuel.

 

[Pupik]

Fuel efficiency didn't really hurt the racing much from 1984-1987, although it was more of a ban on refueling, than promoting fuel efficiency...after all, cars made 700-900 horsepower in race trim.

Within the fuel limit and the greater scope of ERS, pace differences over race distance as different fuel/regen, boost and tire strategies play out should make the first half of the season chaotic and... fun... to watch.

Of course, there's always a chance one team plans things to perfection, or is extremely lucky, and walks over the rest of the grid for the first half of the season. Or it evens things out...who knows?

Here's to a little more chaos and confusion, which also is what keeps F1 interesting (to me, at least).

 

[Samus]

I would actually be amazed if one or more teams don't find a loophole to give them a big advantage at the start. It'll be double/triple diffuser all over again I'm sure.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

“Efficiency is the key thing,” he concluded. “You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race. It is a significant change to the efficiency of the car.”


Nothing says exciting racing like cars driving around saving fuel.

So you hate all racing then?

 

[Imari]

So you hate all racing then?

Most racing consists of putting enough fuel in the car to go as fast as possible. Only just enough, mind you, and the slightly-not-enough strategy has found it's way into more and more forms of motorsport, but still. The limiting factors for speed are other parts of the car. A lot of the time is spent trying to go as fast as humanly possible.

It's different to saying "here's 100L of fuel, see if you can stretch this out to race distance". The limiting factor is presumably fuel, otherwise why bother limiting it. Aero is still important, but less so and purely from an efficiency of downforce standpoint. Tyres don't matter as much because you're not working them to the limit. Setup matters less, because you're not driving on the limit. Driving skill matters less, because you're not driving on the limit.

It spoils the show, to a certain extent. There's still interesting things in pit strategy and so on, but you won't see the drivers duel to the same extent because strategy will trump everything. It will be Malaysia all year, where they jockey for position for a little at the start and then turn the cars down and cruise.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Most racing consists of putting enough fuel in the car to go as fast as possible. Only just enough, mind you, and the slightly-not-enough strategy has found it's way into more and more forms of motorsport, but still. The limiting factors for speed are other parts of the car. A lot of the time is spent trying to go as fast as humanly possible.

One that wasn't my point, two I've been watching racing for 20 years now so you're not telling me anything new. Secondly, fuel may not be the only variable that is an issue for a race series. For example F1 has a couple, one being the tires and the other fuel. Nascar and Indy also have this, and to an extend so does endurance racing to an extent. V8 Supercars also had it, and I believe they adjusted the rules to get rid of it which actually helps your point. Still each series has a variable to prolong a car being out on the track turning fast laps the longest possible before pitting that is my point. V6 turbo engines should be more efficient especially when looking at the energy system releasing 10x the amount over a lap.

It's different to saying "here's 100L of fuel, see if you can stretch this out to race distance". The limiting factor is presumably fuel, otherwise why bother limiting it. Aero is still important, but less so and purely from an efficiency of downforce standpoint. Tyres don't matter as much because you're not working them to the limit. Setup matters less, because you're not driving on the limit. Driving skill matters less, because you're not driving on the limit.

I can't say with a straight face that many motorsports run flat out. The fact is drivers do run flat out for a time, just not constantly, we know they run flat out do fastest laps still being set at later stages. However, once again just like with any race series, running flat out from the start of a stint to the close is impossible and not wise, a strategy has always been a winner. A group of guys running as fast as they can constantly is a sloppy and trigger happy way to drive in my opinion. Driving skills always matter, they are needed for churning out a single fast lap for the pole and needed during battles and to out pace their foe even during conservation moments.

It spoils the show, to a certain extent. There's still interesting things in pit strategy and so on, but you won't see the drivers duel to the same extent because strategy will trump everything. It will be Malaysia all year, where they jockey for position for a little at the start and then turn the cars down and cruise.

This isn't the early 1900s to mid 1900s of auto racing, for decades now racing series have made advancements to achieve amazing power and still gain fuel efficiency. I don't see any spoil in the show, what I see is people not willing to budge and at times being myopic to change. Maybe it is the engineer in me, however I see DRS and similar gimmicks a bigger threat to the authenticity of the sport. I don't see how you can at all say it will be Malaysia all year next year, we've yet to see how the engine performs. It's possible this set up will run similar to this years due the V6 having the ability to gain more mileage on a tank than the V8, like I said. Also Malaysia was MGP's fault, they chose to run light and due to it had to hold back their drivers. They could have had more fuel on board but obviously their strategy led them to believe that the car would have been too harsh on the rear tires and making the car slower overall.

 

[IforceV8]

So you hate all racing then?

Only the one's that jump the shark.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Only the one's that jump the shark.

Then you should have walked away from F1 long ago, depending on when you joined the circus.

 

[Omnis]

Why don't more cars use a single turbo with two turbine inlets?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Why don't more cars use a single turbo with two turbine inlets?

Not sure, I mean the only other series I can think of right now (haven't slept) would be WEC stuff, and those cars are twin turbos off each bank. So it's a different idea in some regard to twin scroll. Also I think twin-scroll helps give more peak performance faster for the type of engines F1s have anyways...but this could all be crazy tired talk as well

 

[Omnis]

It's one thing to be twin scroll. This is twin inlet, possibly also twin scroll. Quad scroll? Hex scroll?

 

[IforceV8]

Then you should have walked away from F1 long ago, depending on when you joined the circus.

ESPN Speedworld.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It's one thing to be twin scroll. This is twin inlet, possibly also twin scroll. Quad scroll? Hex scroll?

Well the system I believe provides better turbo response and efficiency at all times, so obviously no turbo lag and quicker boost. You are talking about the two gas inlets on the housing correct? Or am I missing something, from the Merc and Renault pics it looks like a divided inlet.

ESPN Speedworld.

Then yeah, I'm surprised you are still around after this long.

 

[niky]

Packaging a single turbo off a Vee with relatively compact exhaust manifolds is problematic, unless you're an F1 car, and you can just put some exactly equal-length spaghetti piping in there and hang it off the back of the motor.

Subaru packages a single turbo with two banks of cylinders, but the boxer layout is such a compromise for turbocharging that putting up with wildly uneven manifold lengths actually makes sense.

 

[Tornado]

“Efficiency is the key thing,” he concluded. “You won’t see cars run out of fuel – there’s no limit to the amount of fuel a team can put in a car but there is a limit to how much they can use in a race. It is a significant change to the efficiency of the car.”


Nothing says exciting racing like cars driving around saving fuel.

So boring.

 

[Inferno251]

Perhaps the most infamous variant on this was the Brabham "fan car", which places a massive fan at the rear of the car to suck even more air out from underneath the car. It is hoped that ground effects will negate the messy wake that bounces off the rear wings, allowing cars to travel closer together.

The fan car-perhaps the most ambitious technological machine implemented in F1 history, right after the discovery of ground effect and the Lotus 79. Also inspiration for the X2010 I believe.
However, isn't one problem with ground effect the massive amounts of g-forces that drivers sustain? (I mean, in comparison to the F1's nowadays)

 

[Centura]

The fan car-perhaps the most ambitious technological machine implemented in F1 history, right after the discovery of ground effect and the Lotus 79. Also inspiration for the X2010 I believe.
However, isn't one problem with ground effect the massive amounts of g-forces that drivers sustain? (I mean, in comparison to the F1's nowadays)

I think the bigger problem with ground effect is that it's dangerous on bumpy tracks.

 

[DemurgicDemon]

I think the bigger problem with ground effect is that it's dangerous on bumpy tracks.

How is it dangerous on bumpy tracks? I'm not questioning the truth in what you just said; I generally want to know as I actually have no idea!

 

[ExigeEvan]

How is it dangerous on bumpy tracks? I'm not questioning the truth in what you just said; I generally want to know as I actually have no idea!

Because it is dependent on minimal air flow getting below the car, which is difficult on bumpy roads. If you do get airflow underneath then you tend to get airborne rather quickly.

 

[DemurgicDemon]

Because it is dependent on minimal air flow getting below the car, which is difficult on bumpy roads. If you do get airflow underneath then you tend to get airborne rather quickly.

Ah okay, thanks for explaining; as you can tell, I'm not very technically minded!

 

[Exorcet]

More air is actually better*. The bad bit is when how much air gets under the car fluctuates.

One of the principles behind ground effect is the Bernoulli Equation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle

As a car goes up and down on its suspension, the ratios of cross sectional area change, and so does the pressure, which makes the downforce change. That downforce change changes the limits of tire grip, and if that starts bouncing around, there will be obvious trouble for the driver.

*without a fan. The rest is more of less true regardless of fan, just in the with-fan case, it's not Bernoulli that causes pressure differences, but imperfect sealing of the low pressure area created by the fan.

 

[DK]

Because it is dependent on minimal air flow getting below the car, which is difficult on bumpy roads. If you do get airflow underneath then you tend to get airborne rather quickly.

Also, the use of ground effect requires very low-hanging side skirts to prevent air flowing under the car, and chances are you'd scrape those skirts on a bumpy surface quite a lot.

 

[05XR8]

http://www.speedcafe.com/2013/07/16/marussia-f1-to-use-ferrari-powertrain-from-2014/

 

[Endless-Wilso]

A few spec's on the Mercedes powerplant.

ERS includes two motors the first called MGU-K (motor generator unit kinetic )
4 megajoules recovery capable.
The second MGU-H H=heat is a motor mounted coaxially between the compressor and turbine, 2 megajoules of energy recovery capable 125,000rpm limit and is used to spool the turbo as part of the ERS boost .
ERS is limited to 161hp.
Note the claim on exact megajoules capacity may be inaccurate.
Also Mercedes is using a "duel boost" compressor wheel.
And say 750hp is there goal.

 

[Wardez]

Mercedes released a "simulation" sound sample of what they think the new engine could sound like storming down Monza:


I am not looking forward to the new engines... :c

And yes, I get the concept, and that they'll be just as powerful, or a little more even, with the two ERS's. But it's just... that sound! GUH.

But whatever, as long as it's good racing. We'll have to let go of the screaming 18k RPM sound ;_;

At least I got to hear them in person. Kind of bums me out I'm not going to Austin again this year, but am planning to next year...

 

[Peasantslayer]

Mercedes released a "simulation" sound sample of what they think the new engine could sound like storming down Monza:


I am not looking forward to the new engines... :c

And yes, I get the concept, and that they'll be just as powerful, or a little more even, with the two ERS's. But it's just... that sound! GUH.

But whatever, as long as it's good racing. We'll have to let go of the screaming 18k RPM sound ;_;

At least I got to hear them in person. Kind of bums me out I'm not going to Austin again this year, but am planning to next year...

It does sound like a bit of a let down but when we hear 22 screaming at the same time we'll forget what the current engines sound like and become used to it.

 

[Grand Prix]

People were whining about the V8s too when they were introduced.

 

[Wardez]

But the step from V12's to 10's to 8's doesn't seem like as big a step as 8's to 6 turbo...

That NA helped out. I really don't feel like this is just "people" whining, implying it's just a vocal minority. I don't know anyone personally that actually supports it, although for superficial reasons alone. All the other aspects of the power package and such, are admittedly awesome.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I love the sound it's great and reminds me of a modern 80s F1 engine sound to be honest. I think the V8 sounds worse with the rev limited and more so when they used off throttle EBD. This is a great sound, to be honest nothing like the super overdone fart cans people were claiming they'd be when we first got news.

 

[05XR8]

all I know is, the cars on video sound nothing like real life. I'll describe how it sounds when I hear them up close next year.