2014 Santander British Grand Prix

[jtv90069]

- Vettel complained obstruction (firm but fair) by Alonso.
- Alonso complained of the continual encroachments (illegal) of track by Vettel.
When Vettel passed Alonso went out of the track and he should had to return position. In addition it should be noted that Vettel had boundless even in the previous curve (curve Arena).
Moral of the story is, Vettel is so strong that with a clearly superior car and fresher tires he had to make illegal maneuvers in order to pass Alonso. Oh and do not tell me Ricciardo beat Vettel again.

Could you point out to me exactly where Vettel is off track when he passes, and remember all you need is 2 tyres on the line to be on track.


Skip to 2:51 for lead up to pass.
At 3:03 Vettel goes slightly wide and it sounds as though he briefly lifted off the accelerator while he was off track.

EDIT: I see at the very end of the video he goes fractionally wide, but after the pass is complete.

 

[HKS racer]

Could you point out to me exactly where Vettel is off track when he passes, and remember all you need is 2 tyres on the line to be on track.


Skip to 2:51 for lead up to pass.
At 3:03 Vettel goes slightly wide and it sounds as though he briefly lifted off the accelerator while he was off track.

EDIT: I see at the very end of the video he goes fractionally wide, but after the pass is complete.

Thanks for the video.
Take a look at:
0:58
1:55
2:38 LOL
3:03 Even if he "briefly lifted off the accelerator while he was off track" it is not a good excuse. He wasn't still allowed to run out of the track.

So yes he run out of the black line with 4 tires before the pass. At 2:38 he gained quite a lot of speed.

EDIT: I see at the very end of the video he goes fractionally wide, but after the pass is complete.

You are still not allowed to run wide a couple of moments after a pass. That was a nice Charlie gift, as usual, I would say.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It shouldn't matter when and where he went off - he can't rightly complain about Alonso doing it if he's doing it himself. Likewise Alonso complaining about Vettel.

 

[Parker]

Oh and do not tell me Ricciardo beat Vettel again.

I don't understand why Vettel haters keep bringing that up. Obviously Ricciardo is a damn good driver, hell, maybe even better than Vettel, but that doesn't mean that Vettel is a bad driver.

 

[jtv90069]

Thanks for the video.
Take a look at:
0:58
1:55
2:38 LOL
3:03 Even if he "briefly lifted off the accelerator while he was off track" it is not a good excuse. He wasn't still allowed to run out of the track.

So yes he run out of the black line with 4 tires before the pass. At 2:38 he gained quite a lot of speed.

You are still not allowed to run wide a couple of moments after a pass. That was a nice Charlie gift, as usual, I would say.

At 0:58 and 1:55 I don't think he was off track, all you need is 2 tyres on the line, which I think he has but it's not a great view either.
2:38 probably should be a strike or warning or something.
3:03 is perfectly forgivable, car gets loose and he's had to catch it(small opposite lock corrections).

When Vettel passed Alonso went out of the track and he should had to return position.

None of them are related to the pass, so why should Vettel have returned the position?

Going off track whilst on the limit is almost inevitable. Drivers who consistently and repeatedly abuse track boundary's should be penalized, for example if Vettel had done the same thing as he did at 2:38 in the video on multiple laps there would have been a penalty.

I really enjoyed watching the race, especially the battle between Alonso and Vettel. They were quite fair and if no one had heard the whinging from both drivers I doubt there would be much of a discussion on the topic of track boundaries.

 

[HKS racer]

None of them are related to the pass

Yes they are since with those moves he gained time and he found himself closer to Alonso than before, so he prepared a pass with 2 illegal manouvers. If we go by your logic a driver is allowed to cut every turn of the track before a pass. Shouldn't work like that.

 

[craigatm]

Quite frankly, I'm hoping that neither Vettel or Alonso get penalised. It was great racing between the two of them; really exciting stuff! So I'd hate to see it ruined by off track politics. At the end of the day, both of them broke the track limits a number of times. Therefore neither of them can claim justifiably, that the other was racing unfairly. And since they didn't gain an advantage over the rest of the field by doing so, I feel both their cries for the other to be slapped upside the head by the stewards, should simply be ignored.

 

[jtv90069]

If we go by your logic a driver is allowed to cut every turn of the track before a pass.

You are not following my logic it seems.
I excused one of Vettel's excursions, which was very minor and understandable as to why it happened.
Anyways I thought it was fair from both though pushing the limits of the rules at times, but it's F1 and it's fantastic to see them actually race instead of just following each other as they had a few years ago before KERS & DRS.

 

[ShiftingGears]

I want the track limits to be the fastest way around a circuit, I think it starts getting a bit silly when we have these sort of petty arguments about who drove over a line where. Easier said than done, but I think it detracts slightly from great racing duels like we saw on Sunday. For the record I think Vettel and Alonso were both guilty of exceeding track limits, but I don't wish penalties on either party.

If there's one man at Mercedes who knows his stuff, it's Niki Lauda.

I am almost certain that Lauda was a member of the GPDA when it went on strike at the 1975 Spanish Grand Prix for incorrectly mounted guardrails, so his stance regarding what happened this weekend seems a bit hypocritical if I am correct.

You do realise that these are segments of safety fencing that are designed to withstand the impact of a Formula 1 car pulling over forty-five times the force of gravity, right? Because that's exactly what Räikkönen did, and the barrier stayed in one piece. As a result, they're quite difficult to get apart. Any weaker, and Räikkönen could have gone straight through it, up over the hill behind it, across the circuit access road that crosses the circuit there (and which buses frequently use), and into the support paddock. All while airborne.

I'm sure the system could have been designed so that segments could be replaced in "twenty minutes, tops". But then you'd be in here complaining about safety standards and questioning why the barriers separated in the aftermath of the dead Ferrari driver. I know that sounds flippant, but a separating armco barrier is what killed Jochen Rindt.

I don't necessarily equate a quick barrier replacement with more danger. Better tooling, for instance. Rapid armco replacement just isn't that high on the priority list, so I don't think it is as optimised as it could be.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

Alonso already on final warning for track limits, left the track multiple times. Vettel pursuing, also left the track multiple times most notably when completing the overtake.

Both drivers complained and the race stewards decided to let them continue racing. A penalty would have ruined a great battle, which is what F1 has been missing in the past few years.

It's more exciting to see a good battle with some track limit abuse than listen to David Coulthard explain how ERS and DRS work for the umpteenth time because the drivers are too afraid of penalties to actually race!

 

[mister dog]

This idea for double points at the last races still seems ludicrous to me. What if either Hamilton or Rosberg looses a 30 or more points advantage which he build up fighting for all season due to a DNF...

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Guttierez gets a three place drop at Germany for causing a collision with Maldonado, he has had quite a few penalties this season hasn't he?!

 

[Touring Mars]

This idea for double points at the last races still seems ludicrous to me. What if either Hamilton or Rosberg looses a 30 or more points advantage which he build up fighting for all season due to a DNF...

One of them could be leading by 50 points before the final round and still lose - that's a huge gap given than the biggest gap between them all season so far has been 25 pts (after Race 1). Seems horribly unfair, and not all that unlikely either, given that a Merc has retired in 1 in 6 attempts this season so far.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

A penalty would have ruined a great battle, which is what F1 has been missing in the past few years.

Be that as it may, there does come a point where enough is enough, and a penalty is justified. You can't ignore someone breaking a rule because it produces a better show.

This idea for double points at the last races still seems ludicrous to me. What if either Hamilton or Rosberg looses a 30 or more points advantage which he build up fighting for all season due to a DNF...

What if the standard points system was kept in place, and either Hamilton or Rosberg lose an advantage of twenty-four points?

 

[Tom]

The elderly fan is at it again.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/166179.html?CMP=chrome

 

[prisonermonkeys]

He's right. Räikkönen should have backed off the moment he chose to run wide. He would have been able to rejoin safely then. Even if he had have made it at speed, there was a melee (the collective noun for a group of racing drivers) of drivers around. The stewards would have thrown the book at him. Tarmac run-off areas are designed so that a driver has the opportunity to catch the car if he makes a mistake. They are not there so that you can run wide without consequence, and go flat out if you want. They are a safety feature, not an extension of the circuit.

Anyway, Räikkönen is out of this week's test. Jules Bianchi has been called up to replace him.

 

[vasiliflame]

Simple answer remove the lines just have Tarmac and grass if you are on the grass , you are putting yourself in danger that solve the problem

 

[Hun200kmh]

Be that as it may, there does come a point where enough is enough, and a penalty is justified. You can't ignore someone breaking a rule because it produces a better show.

Agreed. And I have no doubt that the pass was illegal, Vettel gained an advantage for exceeding the track limits before and after the overtake. End result: He should've given the place back.

BEFORE, check 0:03 on this video.

EDIT - VIDEO TAKEN OFF BY FOM.
Here a picture of that moment

AFTER, check 0:29 (onboard) and 0:39 (helicopter view) in this video

EDIT - BEfore the video is also taken off by FOM, here a picture of the moment

I think it is a very clear case of:

a) going off track the corner before to get the slingshot on the straight, placing the car side by side with Alonso onto the next sequence of corners

b) then wheel-to-wheel racing through that corner sequence

c) then Seb outbraked Alonso, but also himself and ran off the circuit again to complete the pass.




Also, keep in mind what happened to Grosjean last year (Hungary) because of what is technically the same infraction. A DRIVE THROUGH. To me that was a very unfair penalty, because the way I see it Grosjean went off track to avoid a collision. Vettel went off track BEFORE so he could carry more speed onto the straight, and went off track AFTER because he was going to fast to stay within the track limits.






ahhh ... whatever, it was a battle for fifth anyway ...

What if the standard points system was kept in place, and either Hamilton or Rosberg lose an advantage of twenty-four points?

In one race you may lose one race's advantage, that's fair. (we just saw that happening this weekend). Anything else isn't.

 

[IceMan PJN]

Great race overall, shame about Rosberg but apparently there is some truth to Alonso's theory that luck evens out during a season. We'll see.

If that's the case, Rosberg still has a fair bit of misfortune to look forward to. He needs one more DNF that isn't his fault (if he crashes himself, that isn't bad luck) and some other smaller misfortunes besides just to even things out between him and Hamilton. I don't subscribe to the theory that it all evens out, however, because some drivers end up having way more rotten luck than the other guys. For example, in 2012 Lewis finished fourth in the WDC, but he had six DNFs, which is almost one in three races, while two of the three ahead of him had but two DNFs and one had zero DNFs. Had Lewis had their number of DNFs, he'd probably have won that championship.

 

[Peasantslayer]

And pit stop problems which cost him track position against Alonso at Valencia and a few others. ^ I wouldn't say luck evens itself out over a season, perhaps over the course of a career.

 

[FormulaKimball]

This one pic illustrates a lot of what bothers me about F1/racing today. I'm not taking sides on the whole exceeding track limits list for the race since it happened so often by everyone who was actually racing hard that it got completely silly. The inconsistency (as always) is more frustrating than how they actually dealt with this (let 'em race), like how you can easily find examples of super brief off-and-on while avoiding contact but getting penalized harshly, vs today where Alonso was on his final warning and kept doing it anyway (and considering they already were watching him for being HALF A CAR LENGTH out of position on the grid, I'm surprised they were so lenient...)

Here's my gripe - why are the kerbs so wide? Why is that green area also nearly the width of the car? You want to discourage exceeding track limits, make the kerb only as wide as the tire and put a car width of grass next to it (then tarmac runoff).

If you keep taking away downforce and then make the track limits so driveable, of course drivers will push it as far as they can to recover some pace...

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'm with you on that, the area off limit (i.e. off track) should not allow a gain for the ones that use it. I suppose things are the way they are for safety reasons and I agree that the tracks of old, with no run off areas, are not a solution.

However, I think someone from the technical side of the FIA could come up with a solution to make these run off areas tyre killers. Providing grip yes, we don't want to see the guys crashing just because they went over it, but at the same time destroying their tyres' lives.

 

[FormulaKimball]

I'm with you on that, the area off limit (i.e. off track) should not allow a gain for the ones that use it. I suppose things are the way they are for safety reasons and I agree that the tracks of old, with no run off areas, are not a solution.

However, I think someone from the technical side of the FIA could come up with a solution to make these run off areas tyre killers. Providing grip yes, we don't want to see the guys crashing just because they went over it, but at the same time destroying their tyres' lives.

Eh, it's a dilemma either way I think - if you deliberately design an area to be a tire killer then that can become a safety issue too. The real problem is the more you make runoff areas safer, by definition they become driveable and now you have to enforce them with rules rather than having them sort themselves out by losing some time for the offending driver. Personally I think when drivers go four completely off (e.g. Kimi) then they should consider themselves under yellow flag rules - your telemetry should show you sufficiently slowed down in order to re-join the track safely. That's tricky when the runoff is in a fast section where joining safely means either gunning it or letting the entire train go by (which no one wants to do). But maybe that's what needs to happen to make it more costly to go off (as it used to be) yet not increase the number of retirements/crashes by returning to gravel or whatever.

I think any big tarmac runoff should always contain either cones or Styrofoam chicanes of some sort that completely disintegrate on contact but provide a psychological deterrent from just flying through the runoff as if it's part of the circuit

 

[GTPorsche]

Reverting the tarmac runoff back to grass/gravel works. Sure.. there's a chance the car won't rejoin the track, but that's the chance they take on going off-course.

 

[Ninners]

 

[Peasantslayer]

Reverting the tarmac runoff back to grass/gravel works. Sure.. there's a chance the car won't rejoin the track, but that's the chance they take on going off-course.

But they could be nudged off the track by someone and have their race wrecked... the best solution is probably to have big runoffs but hand out more penalties.

 

[neljack]

PHOTO SPAM!? *runs*

Plenty more from all the other races if there was other threads

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

- Vettel complained obstruction (firm but fair) by Alonso.
- Alonso complained of the continual encroachments (illegal) of track by Vettel.
When Vettel passed Alonso went out of the track and he should had to return position. In addition it should be noted that Vettel had boundless even in the previous curve (curve Arena).
Moral of the story is, Vettel is so strong that with a clearly superior car and fresher tires he had to make illegal maneuvers in order to pass Alonso. Oh and do not tell me Ricciardo beat Vettel again.

That's if you want to distort reality after what I said couple post ago I told you and proved that Alonso did the same thing, but you want to ignore all that. Not sure if it's because he's Spaniard or because he's at Ferrari or because of your Vettel dislike you're documented showing here or all.

It shouldn't matter when and where he went off - he can't rightly complain about Alonso doing it if he's doing it himself. Likewise Alonso complaining about Vettel.

This right here is my point, if you're going to pick a side because your bleeding heart obsessive hatred for a certain driver then why post here and not contribute anything other than to be salty. We've had enough people do this in the past year and half. @HKS racer

@FormulaKimball and @NFSCARBON1 make a great point on this that you should read or reread if you haven't. You probably wont though since you're the BHR doppleganger.

 

[Hun200kmh]

View attachment 182328

Two questions about this one.
Is that Damon Hill driving the Gold Leaf Lotus and Allan McNish driving the Tyrrell?
And what car is the 3rd one?


Also ... Thanks! Like them all, especially the one with Bottas going for the outside. Did that one stick, do you remember?

 

[GTPorsche]

3rd one looks to be another Tyrrell.